Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 556 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 10-28-2015, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
The waterfall, however, is awful.
I had similar issues...your speakers are way better than mine, of course waterfall's don't care.

This is what I was able to get to....

treatments:

floor to ceiling front bass traps
fully treated front wall
large ceiling cloud at first reflection
panels on rear wall

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Old 10-28-2015, 07:58 AM
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If both mics are "calibrated," a big difference is likely from your readings at 80dB and his at 100dB.

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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Old 10-28-2015, 08:03 AM
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If both mics are "calibrated," a big difference is likely from your readings at 80dB and his at 100dB.
Mine is calibrated...and yes 100dB is a bit hot to measure....but my point simply was treatments can and do work.
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Old 10-28-2015, 08:06 AM
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If both mics are "calibrated," a big difference is likely from your readings at 80dB and his at 100dB.
No, why would you expect a difference?

Markus

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Old 10-28-2015, 08:17 AM
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You're misinterpreting the graph. Level of the "ringing" will change with level of the test signal. It's not a constant.
Partly because of what you said here.


Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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Old 10-28-2015, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Partly because of what you said here.

What are you referring to?

There is a linear relationship between SPL of the direct sound and SPL of room reflections.

Markus

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Old 10-28-2015, 10:08 AM
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Which is why comparing waterfalls at different levels is apples and oranges.
No?

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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Old 10-28-2015, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Which is why comparing waterfalls at different levels is apples and oranges.
No?
No. And again, you need to have an in-depth understanding of how a waterfall is generated and play around with different settings in order to make any assumption about how exactly the real in-room decay at each frequency may look like.
For our purposes here just look for ridges starting at the first slice. If there are any then you're most likely having a problem with excessively ringing room modes. If they stick out below the first few slices everything is probably fine.

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Old 10-28-2015, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
No. And again, you need to have an in-depth understanding of how a waterfall is generated and play around with different settings in order to make any assumption about how exactly the real in-room decay at each frequency may look like.
For our purposes here just look for ridges starting at the first slice. If there are any then you're most likely having a problem with excessively ringing room modes. If they stick out below the first few slices everything is probably fine.
This is good info to have markus...could you point out exactly what you mean by "ridges" on a waterfall? Thanks!
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Old 10-28-2015, 11:01 AM
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This is good info to have markus...could you point out exactly what you mean by "ridges" on a waterfall? Thanks!
I think he's referring to how quickly my waterfall drops from the beginning, rather than "hanging on" for some time. By 150ms I'm down about 30db.

It's good to know that mine isn't too bad.

As stated, I will run another at 85db when I get the chance to be able to compare to others. Then we can more conclusively look at how much I should try to reduce the total decay times. With that said though, this is what you'd actually hear if you listened near 100db (I don't).

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Old 10-28-2015, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
This is good info to have markus...could you point out exactly what you mean by "ridges" on a waterfall? Thanks!
This post has examples of ridges at 40Hz and 60Hz. There are many more examples in this thread, and even an example in the guide.
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Old 10-28-2015, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
This post has examples of ridges at 40Hz and 60Hz. There are many more examples in this thread, and even an example in the guide.
Ahh...OK. So it's the ridges that are already formed at the top of the WF that are the most worrisome (as opposed to the ridges that form further down), correct?

What is the recommended cure for these kinds of ridges? Seems to me that if you are able to smooth the FR it would smooth these ridges as well (i.e. with sub placement, treatments, more subs, etc.).
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Old 10-28-2015, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Ahh...OK. So it's the ridges that are already formed at the top of the WF that are the most worrisome (as opposed to the ridges that form further down), correct?
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
What is the recommended cure for these kinds of ridges? Seems to me that if you are able to smooth the FR it would smooth these ridges as well (i.e. with sub placement, treatments, more subs, etc.).
Near field sub or passive/active absorption.

Markus

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Old 10-28-2015, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Ahh...OK. So it's the ridges that are already formed at the top of the WF that are the most worrisome (as opposed to the ridges that form further down), correct?
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
What is the recommended cure for these kinds of ridges? Seems to me that if you are able to smooth the FR it would smooth these ridges as well (i.e. with sub placement, treatments, more subs, etc.).
Near field sub or passive/active absorption.
What is active absorption?
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Old 10-28-2015, 01:55 PM
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What is active absorption?
A sponge??

I believe he's talking about those "tuned" bass traps. I could be way off base though.
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Old 10-28-2015, 02:06 PM
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What is active absorption?
Another sub or something like http://www.bagend.com/products-categ...ive-bass-trap/
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Old 10-28-2015, 02:41 PM
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I've only tried the auto-eq function within REW so far as I'm not 100% confident in attempting manual eq without some guidance lol.
To do manual EQ, do the following:

0) start a thread dedicated to manual EQ and solicit inputs while reading up on the thread I linked to
1) set up system with full auto setup including EQ and get REW running
2) play with sound modes etc while measuring to figure out how to check response of each channel/pair without causing issues (sound modes such as full mono and all channel stereo include attenuation that alters the mix between sattelite and sub per channel but sometimes there are no discrete analog inputs or configurable stream to use for testing receiver channels individually i.e. Ubuntu Linux default mixer will not let REW change from stereo out).
3) disable auto EQ and place mic at main listening position
4) play with subwoofer distance and sattelite crossover frequencies to double-check the integration
5) choose a target EQ curve and enter it (with room dimensions) into REW EQ window
6) measure response and trim manual EQ toward target response
7) iterate listening position, subwoofer placement, and EQ/crossovers until optimized
8) double-check the result with additional measurements near the main listening position
9) take a long rest because this is lots of work

The key though is that you seem to have subwoofer placement issues causing bass response issues. EQ is not going to help much with that. Check my placement/measurement/EQ thread to see how I addressed it:

One vs two subwoofers?

Eventually you will have to pick a target response. You can ask for help with that in your thread too. Generally your target response should be sloped toward mild treble attenuation and straight-line from 10KHz down with somewhat more treble attenuation (steeper slope) above 10KHz. The rest is up for interpretation.

Other option is to upgrade room EQ to Dirac. You can set manual target and the resulting auto EQ will be better than manual graphic (probably) but if you still have placement issues the response will suffer.
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Old 10-28-2015, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Which is why comparing waterfalls at different levels is apples and oranges.
No?
What matters with waterfall is that there is sufficient amplitude to get the sweep well above the noise floor so that the decay rate (measured in dB down at specific intervals from time zero at any given frequency) can be discerned from the plot. If the level is too low the decay terminates in the noise floor too quickly and the detail gets buried. If the level is too high distortion/compression warps things and maybe some rattles start up.

Other than that, waterfalls at different levels can be directly compared though you are correct that some nonlinearities might affect the ringing/decay slightly if the levels do not match. I am not certain where such nonlinearities could come from but I suspect that the excursion limits on things like leather sofa coverings etc. play some minor role in linearity of bass trapping -- probably not enough to even be detected with REW typical use case. Ask the experts for more detail if you are curious since I ain't one.
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Old 10-28-2015, 03:03 PM
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Quick question, i say a discussion on this back around the 510page but i don't think i saw any clarification or even an answer to my question.

When setting up my UMIK-1 (-18dB) for Windows 7 should the Microphone Level (under Microphone Properties) be set to 0dB like i read or +5dB like the REW 101 v4.3 PDF shows? OR since i have the -18dB version should it be something even more different?

Sorry I am new to tuning (really im new to mid to high end audio)
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Old 10-28-2015, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voska_Kerensky View Post
Quick question, i say a discussion on this back around the 510page but i don't think i saw any clarification or even an answer to my question.

When setting up my UMIK-1 (-18dB) for Windows 7 should the Microphone Level (under Microphone Properties) be set to 0dB like i read or +5dB like the REW 101 v4.3 PDF shows? OR since i have the -18dB version should it be something even more different?

Sorry I am new to tuning (really im new to mid to high end audio)
Well all of the discussion here is to use 0db. I wonder why the PDF says 5db?

I also had to uncheck the box in REW to disallow it taking control of the mic volume. It kept changing it on me.

Last edited by Soulburner; 10-28-2015 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 10-28-2015, 03:10 PM
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Well all of the discussion here is to use 0db. I wonder why the PDF says 5db?

I also had to uncheck the box in REW disallow it to take control of the mic volume. It kept changing it on me.
thanks, oddly enough it will only let me set it to -0.2 not exactly 0
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Old 10-28-2015, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
You're misinterpreting the graph. Level of the "ringing" will change with level of the test signal. It's not a constant.

I didn't mean to imply that the ringing is a constant. What I meant was that listening at a lower level would inject less energy into the room and the resultant ringing would be less.

I realize that modal ringing doesn't require a lot of input energy to get going. After all, that's a property of being modal.

But shouldn't listening at a lower level also create less ringing because there's less energy going into the room?
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Old 10-28-2015, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voska_Kerensky View Post
Quick question, i say a discussion on this back around the 510page but i don't think i saw any clarification or even an answer to my question.

When setting up my UMIK-1 (-18dB) for Windows 7 should the Microphone Level (under Microphone Properties) be set to 0dB like i read or +5dB like the REW 101 v4.3 PDF shows? OR since i have the -18dB version should it be something even more different?

Sorry I am new to tuning (really im new to mid to high end audio)
Go back and read the guide again. It clearly states "The objective of level-setting on this screen is to get the microphone gain close to zero". Using my UMIK-1 with factory -12dB gain setting, the closest I can get to 0dB is +5dB with Windows 7. With Windows 10, I am able to set the mic gain exactly to 0dB. It is quite possible that different mics, different factory gain settings, and different operating systems will produce slightly different results.

I would not obsess about it--get it as close as possible, and err on the positive side.
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Old 10-29-2015, 12:32 AM
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Matt,

This active bass trap looks interesting. How good is this product? Do you anyone who has used it and reported good results?

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Old 10-29-2015, 01:38 AM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Matt,

This active bass trap looks interesting. How good is this product? Do you anyone who has used it and reported good results?
I haven't used one, the reviews I have seen say it can be effective but is v picky about positioning to be effective. I use a VBA on my near field sub which works well for my purposes. There are some links/discussion in Active Bass Trapping using a spare subwoofer
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Old 10-29-2015, 02:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
I didn't mean to imply that the ringing is a constant. What I meant was that listening at a lower level would inject less energy into the room and the resultant ringing would be less.

I realize that modal ringing doesn't require a lot of input energy to get going. After all, that's a property of being modal.

But shouldn't listening at a lower level also create less ringing because there's less energy going into the room?
As I've said before, there is a linear relationship between the excitation signal and the measured signal. Hence the relation between direct sound and reflected sound will be the same regardless how loud the direct sound is. In other words the waterfall looks exactly the same regardless how loud the measuring signal is. The only difference comes from noise.

Markus

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Old 10-29-2015, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
I didn't mean to imply that the ringing is a constant. What I meant was that listening at a lower level would inject less energy into the room and the resultant ringing would be less.

I realize that modal ringing doesn't require a lot of input energy to get going. After all, that's a property of being modal.

But shouldn't listening at a lower level also create less ringing because there's less energy going into the room?
As I've said before, there is a linear relationship between the excitation signal and the measured signal. Hence the relation between direct sound and reflected sound will be the same regardless how loud the direct sound is. In other words the waterfall looks exactly the same regardless how loud the measuring signal is. The only difference comes from noise.
Ok, but why is the common advice to measure at 85dB to 90dB then?
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Old 10-29-2015, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Ok, but why is the common advice to measure at 85dB to 90dB then?
It's a ballpark figure which should work with most speakers and rooms.

Markus

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Old 10-29-2015, 03:07 PM
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My setup: Umik-1, Denon x4000, B&W 685s2, SVS SB2000. Media PC (as opposed to living room TV).

I'm just looking at the low end to get myself started.

The first graph shows a frequency response overlay of the raw setup vs audyssey vs manual cross-over change of the audyssey results. I call the first audyssey results "auto" and the manual change "80x". The manual change was simply changing the auto audysseycrossover setting from 60Hz to 80Hz.

What to make of this?

Waterfalls plots also attached. Still learning about this but is there anything obviously interesting about these? They seem to come "more into the screen" i.e. last for more ms than many plots I've seen.

Hope I haven't screwed anything up with the axis measurement format etc but I'll correct anything that helps anyone to help me. Thanks in advance!
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Old 10-29-2015, 03:52 PM
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an afterthought - now posting with the waterfalls extended to 1000ms and linear freq
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