Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 580 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 01-09-2016, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim19611961 View Post
To reach 75db at the LP, your talking about 1 watt or less of input to the speakers unless they are very far away from the LP or have a very low sensitivity. With that in mind, you could run sweeps 24/7 and you wont hurt the speakers.

But (I think) the actual sweep frequency is 1/2 the starting frequency. So, if 15hz is the low limit, the sweep actually begins at 7.5hz. If you were to do a sweep at 85 or 90db, you could be running 10 or 20 watts and at 7.5hz, could over ex-curt the woofers on small speakers.
Ok, I'll try 40Hz next time as my bookshelves/sats extend down to 40Hz or so (where they hit the noise floor of 45dB). The mains have single 5.25" woofers and the center has two 4" woofers. The surrounds have single 3.5" woofers. I do limit measures to 75dB except for the sub.

On an unrelated note, is there a reason the max level in REW is -3dBFS and not 0dBFS? I ask so that I can calculate at a given MV watching a movie how loud the peaks can get. My AVR doesn't calibrate 0MV to reference level, so if I want to know what MV reference level is, I have to calculate based on REW SPL meter.
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Old 01-09-2016, 09:19 AM
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On an unrelated note, I think I know why I find higher crossovers than 80Hz objectionable. When I EQ my sub, the overall level drops at least 10dB and then I must increase gain on the sub/use y cable to compensate. Doing so raises the upper extension of the sub so that it plays above the noise floor of 45dB up to around 300Hz or so.

So, to compensate I need to use the sub's LPF to get everything into the noise floor around 200Hz or so instead.

I think I similar effect happens on the sub's lower extension, bringing ULF up. Though I don't know if that is objectionable.

Also, when I hear more or less mid to upper bass after applying EQ or LPF, does the increase or decrease in mid to upper bass I hear come primarily from the LFE channel or from bass management from the other 5 speakers?
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Old 01-10-2016, 06:06 PM
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Please pardon my dumb ass question, but here it goes...

1. Do I still calibrate my sound with REW even if I use something like Audyssey XT32 first?

I have a 7.1 speaker setup and my Denon X4100W should be arriving next week.

I am thinking of getting one of those Umik microphones from Amazon and try to see how bad my system is performing with the use of REW and the Unik mic.

I am wondering if it would be redundant since I can calibrate with Audyssey XT32 instead.

Sorry for the stupid question...

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Old 01-10-2016, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ERuiz View Post
Please pardon my dumb ass question, but here it goes...

1. Do I still calibrate my sound with REW even if I use something like Audyssey XT32 first?

I have a 7.1 speaker setup and my Denon X4100W should be arriving next week.

I am thinking of getting one of those Umik microphones from Amazon and try to see how bad my system is performing with the use of REW and the Unik mic.

I am wondering if it would be redundant since I can calibrate with Audyssey XT32 instead.

Sorry for the stupid question...
Two different concepts. Audyssey calibration is used to generate filters that will overcome shortcomings in the audio characteristics of your listening room, resulting in improved sound.

REW, in turn, is a measurement system designed to assess how well your audio system is performing in your listening room, whether you use room correction or not. REW can point out areas that could be improved by a number of techniques, including better placement of speakers and subs, using room treatments, and fine-tuning EQ systems.

So, Audyssey is going to be one step towards good audio. If you are satisfied with the results, no need to go further. If you feel something needs improving, REW can identify additional steps you can take through measuring what you have.

I hope this provides some clarification.
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Old 01-10-2016, 07:17 PM
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Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measuremen...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Two different concepts. Audyssey calibration is used to generate filters that will overcome shortcomings in the audio characteristics of your listening room, resulting in improved sound.



REW, in turn, is a measurement system designed to assess how well your audio system is performing in your listening room, whether you use room correction or not. REW can point out areas that could be improved by a number of techniques, including better placement of speakers and subs, using room treatments, and fine-tuning EQ systems.



So, Audyssey is going to be one step towards good audio. If you are satisfied with the results, no need to go further. If you feel something needs improving, REW can identify additional steps you can take through measuring what you have.



I hope this provides some clarification.

Thanks! Clear as mud! All kidding aside, thanks. I will try with XT32 first then make the call if I need to go a step further.

Regards,

Efrain "AviatorBimmer" Ruiz
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Old 01-11-2016, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ERuiz View Post
Thanks! Clear as mud! All kidding aside, thanks. I will try with XT32 first then make the call if I need to go a step further.
I'll just add to Jerry's explanation that REW would also help you assess what Audyssey is doing to improve the SQ in your room. Without REW, you will have no objective way to tell what XT32 has attempted to correct vs. what it has not. This enables you to make changes (as Jerry suggested already, placement, treatments, additional subs etc.) and possibly provide Audyssey with a better response which leads to less filters or more available filters where you really need them. All in all, if you're interested in your SQ enough to find the REW thread then it's probably the best $100 investement you'll make in your HT. Others might say welcome to the rabbit hole...sort of a blue vs. red pill IYKWIM!
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Old 01-11-2016, 07:01 AM
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Another poster in the Rythmik thread pointed out that when doing eq, if amplitude/frequency response AND impulse response are taken into account, the results sound better than going by amplitude/FR alone.

However, I don't know the first thing about impulse response, other than it's a tab on REW with a mess of squiggly lines, lol.

It's not in the REW guide either, I think.

If I post an example here, can someone help me make sense of it?
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Old 01-11-2016, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
However, I don't know the first thing about impulse response, other than it's a tab on REW with a mess of squiggly lines, lol.

It's not in the REW guide either, I think.
It is: http://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/hel...eresponse.html

The impulse response plot shows how a impulse will look like when passed through the measured system (= electronics + speaker + room + mic). It's equivalent is the frequency response (phase and magnitude). One can be transformed into the other.

Markus

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Old 01-11-2016, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
It is: http://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/hel...eresponse.html

The impulse response plot shows how a impulse will look like when passed through the measured system (= electronics + speaker + room + mic). It's equivalent is the frequency response (phase and magnitude). One can be transformed into the other.
ok, but how do I format and make sense of the data?

here's one capture...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IR.PNG
Views:	50
Size:	133.1 KB
ID:	1178162  

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings
Samsung UN46EH6030; Yamaha HTR-3066, SVS Prime Bookshelf Mains and Prime Center, Rythmik LV12R; PS4, Xbox One, Motorola RNG150N
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Old 01-11-2016, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
ok, but how do I format and make sense of the data?

here's one capture...
First step would be to read the link I had posted.

Markus

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Old 01-11-2016, 08:01 AM
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First step would be to read the link I had posted.
Ok, just read it. Sort of understood the basics but still don't know how to format and interpret the data.
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Old 01-11-2016, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Ok, just read it. Sort of understood the basics but still don't know how to format and interpret the data.
an example that might help in here

the IR is basically the raw data from which a myriad other, more immediately useful, views can be derived
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Old 01-11-2016, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
an example that might help in here

the IR is basically the raw data from which a myriad other, more immediately useful, views can be derived
Can you repost that link? It's not working.
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Old 01-11-2016, 09:10 AM
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Can you repost that link? It's not working.
Are you using Tapatalk? The link works from the web site.
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Old 01-11-2016, 09:36 AM
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Old 01-11-2016, 06:10 PM
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question for the group. do you guys prefer to manually eq in REW or do you let auto eq do its thing. in testing for another reason this weekend I stumbled on the fact that REW seems to really struggle even when presented with simple curves to straighten

in the first image, i used my preamp to creat some filters, and did a sweep through rew, through the preamp filters, out the preamp output straight into the soundcard. no mic or speaker involved. i put the exact opposite gain of the filters back into rew, used the exact same frequency and q, and it showed this.




second image is REW doing the auto eq. it didnt even try to correct the big hole 600 hz and that leaves me questioning how well it does on actual measured, real responses.


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Old 01-11-2016, 06:20 PM
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^ TBH, I can't tell what I am looking at. Those graphs look different than anything I have seen from REW, and I have been using it a long time.
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Old 01-11-2016, 06:29 PM
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^ TBH, I can't tell what I am looking at. Those graphs look different than anything I have seen from REW, and I have been using it a long time.
i measured a modified frequency response straight out of the preamp into the soundcard.

then i applied the opposite filters manually to reverse it and get it back flat.

then i tried to do the same thing with rew auto eq, with no success.

in the graphs, you see the

1. measured response,
2.predicted response
3. eq filters
4. numbered eq filters at the top of the image

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Old 01-11-2016, 10:46 PM
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Looks like you have default boost settings, it won't boost much unless you tell it to.
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Old 01-12-2016, 12:01 AM
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1201 is treating a filter response curve as if it was an acoustical response that needs to be flattened. Not sure why he is doing that because his intention is to find the filters that produced that curve in the first place. I've already explained to him how to do it here.

Markus

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Last edited by markus767; 01-12-2016 at 12:35 AM.
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Old 01-12-2016, 06:45 AM
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1201 is treating a filter response curve as if it was an acoustical response that needs to be flattened. Not sure why he is doing that because his intention is to find the filters that produced that curve in the first place. I've already explained to him how to do it here.

Please dont confuse anyone . what you said is nowhere close to my intention

the point is i found a limitation of auto eq in that its not good enough to see simple filters on a straight line graph amd correct back to flat, even when within the parameters of the eq
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Old 01-12-2016, 06:50 AM
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Looks like you have default boost settings, it won't boost much unless you tell it to.
I allowed it to boost to the max, which in this case is 3db for the umc200.
i purposely didnt create a filter that would require more than 3 db of correction.

Love rew,and ill love it even more when it gets this correct
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Old 01-12-2016, 06:50 AM
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Please dont confuse anyone . what you said is nowhere close to my intention

the point is i found a limitation of auto eq in that its not good enough to see simple filters on a straight line graph amd correct back to flat, even when within the parameters of the eq
Bluntly the only one that seems to be confused about filters, Emo-Q and REW is you. This is where the discussion started.

Markus

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Old 01-12-2016, 06:52 AM
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I allowed it to boost to the max, which in this case is 3db for the umc200.
i purposely didnt create a filter that would require more than 3 db of correction.

Love rew,and ill love it even more when it gets this correct
Why are you trying to corrected the electrical response of a set of filters? What is it good for?

Markus

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Old 01-12-2016, 06:58 AM
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Bluntly the only one that seems to be confused about filters, Emo-Q and REW is you. This is where the discussion started.
lol. at first you boldly claimed that the filters from emoq and peq couldnt be different. then I proved they were. then you boldly claimed that auto eq is good enough to get a simple set of filters back to flat, then i proved they were different. It sounds to me like you like to be a know-it-all and dont enjoy being proved wrong.

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Why are you trying to corrected the electrical response of a set of filters? What is it good for?
again, it is an observation that REW auto CANNOT do this . and this is a simple task, not a hard task like an actual measured response.

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Old 01-12-2016, 07:09 AM
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lol. at first you boldly claimed that the filters from emoq and peq couldnt be different. then I proved they were. then you boldly claimed that auto eq is good enough to get a simple set of filters back to flat, then i proved they were different. It sounds to me like you like to be a know-it-all and dont enjoy being proved wrong.
Now things get a bit absurd. You're making things up. All you proved is that a) your beliefs were wrong ("Emo-q is producing a much tighter frequency response than what one can get in PEQ and i dont believe it could be replicated across the whole range with just 14 filters") and b) that there's a bug in how Emo-Q reports filter values which I suspected all along.

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again, it is an observation that REW auto CANNOT do this . and this is a simple task, not a hard task like an actual measured response.
With the right set of filters it could. Of course it will fail if you present a response that has dips >3dB but at the same time you only allow filters that can boost <3dB. That's an exercise in futility.
What is it good for? Why are you trying to "undo" filter responses? Your original intent was to recreate what Emo-Q did. I showed you how.

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Old 01-12-2016, 07:12 AM
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Now things get a bit absurd. You're making things up. All you proved is that a) your beliefs were wrong ("Emo-q is producing a much tighter frequency response than what one can get in PEQ and i dont believe it could be replicated across the whole range with just 14 filters") and b) that there's a bug in how Emo-Q reports filter values which I suspected all along.



With the right set of filters it could but again, what is it good for? Why are you trying to "undo" filter responses? Your original intent was to recreate what Emo-Q did. I showed you how.
lol. anyone can go back and read your claims. btw, the above is right because if one used rew auto eq, it would not come close to the tightness the emoq achieved and it would also burn up more filters in the process.

what do you mean "the right set of filters? so rew works when the filters are easy but doesnt when the filters are not as easy? what is going on here?

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Old 01-12-2016, 07:28 AM
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lol. anyone can go back and read your claims. btw, the above is right because if one used rew auto eq, it would not come close to the tightness the emoq achieved and it would also burn up more filters in the process.
False premise. You don't have access to the response for which Emo-Q found its filters. If you would have access to that response curve REW would have found filters exactly replicating the Emo-Q filter response. This is what I've shown you in the UMC-200 thread.

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what do you mean "the right set of filters? so rew works when the filters are easy but doesnt when the filters are not as easy? what is going on here?
Filters aren't "easy". The EQ devices REW supports provide peak filters with certain characteristics. REW is bound by those filter characteristics. You are presenting REW with a task that has not much to do with reality.

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Old 01-12-2016, 07:35 AM
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False premise. You don't have access to the response for which Emo-Q found its filters. If you would have access to that response curve REW would have found 7 filters exactly replicating the Emo-Q filter response. This is what I've shown you in the UMC-200 thread.



Filters aren't "easy". The EQ devices REW supports provide peak filters with certain characteristics. REW is bound by those filter characteristics. You are presenting REW with a task that has not much to do with reality.
Ive been using umc 200 and rew for a good while. trust me when I say this - the filters REW has always created do not achieve the same level of tightness that emoq did(when you compare before and after), and it uses a lot more filters doing so. I do not believe the auto eq algorithms in rew are as sophisticated as the ones in emoq. enough said. I also believe that emoq produces a better sounding result than rew, based on rew's limited algorithms which I hope gets improved on in the future.

if filters arent "easy" then how can actual room response equalization be even achievable
btw, I put in really rudimentary filters eg 200hz, +3db ,2q and rew can match these perfectly (ill post a thread later) but once its gets a little complicated, rew gets lost)

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Old 01-12-2016, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
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I allowed it to boost to the max, which in this case is 3db for the umc200.
i purposely didnt create a filter that would require more than 3 db of correction.

Love rew,and ill love it even more when it gets this correct
it can't possibly get it "right" because the required boost is more than 3dB so what are you expecting to happen here? i.e. can you define what you mean by "correct" here?
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