Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 589 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17641 of 18582 Old 02-01-2016, 11:09 AM
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Is this thread broken??

When I got to "First Unread" it takes me to the top of the last page instead.......
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post #17642 of 18582 Old 02-01-2016, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Is this thread broken??

When I got to "First Unread" it takes me to the top of the last page instead.......
I observed that as well, because I was unable to access my post immediately above. But as soon as you posted, it broke the "spell" and all is good now. I suggest you post occasionally, just to keep things from gumming up, Alan.
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post #17643 of 18582 Old 02-01-2016, 01:11 PM
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Yup, I must have the magic touch....working for me now too.
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post #17644 of 18582 Old 02-01-2016, 02:32 PM
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Just a quick note on customer service from the UMIK-1 folks.

I received my microphone order on 12/28, started setting up everything in earnest on 12/29. When I went to the site to download the configuration file for the microphone, I could not enter the number from the label. The label had been smudged at some point, and the first number in the sequence had been rubbed off. Tried a UPC code reader but the curvature of the mic could not be read by my phone.

I emailed their support, gave them my order number and explained the issue I was having. Less than a day later I had a response that solved the problem.

Very helpful, very responsive.

Now if only I could get the HDMI connection from laptop to receiver to be 5.1 as it used to be, prior to Win10 instead of 2.0 stereo....

I'll figure that one out though, lots of info on that via google.

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post #17645 of 18582 Old 02-01-2016, 05:13 PM
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Is there a reliable way to run REW if you have an older AVR (no HDMI)?
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post #17646 of 18582 Old 02-01-2016, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ddigler View Post
Is there a reliable way to run REW if you have an older AVR (no HDMI)?
Of course. It is described in the guide. Get a cable that has a 3.5mm stereo jack on one end and dual RCA connectors on the other end. Plug the 3.5mm jack into the headphone output on the laptop, and the other end to an available two-channel input on the AVR. Set REW to use the Java driver. REW will feed a mono test signal to both of the stereo channels. To measure the left channel, unplug the right RCA connector, and vice-versa for the right channel. Feed both channels and switch the AVR to PLII Cinema mode for center channel. No way to measure surround channels easily, but who cares about measuring the surrounds.

In summary, you can get good measurements, but maybe not quite as easily as with HDMI. Good luck.
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post #17647 of 18582 Old 02-01-2016, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Of course. It is described in the guide. Get a cable that has a 3.5mm stereo jack on one end and dual RCA connectors on the other end. Plug the 3.5mm jack into the headphone output on the laptop, and the other end to an available two-channel input on the AVR. Set REW to use the Java driver. REW will feed a mono test signal to both of the stereo channels. To measure the left channel, unplug the right RCA connector, and vice-versa for the right channel. Feed both channels and switch the AVR to PLII Cinema mode for center channel. No way to measure surround channels easily, but who cares about measuring the surrounds.

In summary, you can get good measurements, but maybe not quite as easily as with HDMI. Good luck.
Nice thx Jerry.
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post #17648 of 18582 Old 02-01-2016, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
The first thing I would do would be to make it louder.
A house curve typically has subs 5 to 10 dB louder than the mains. Crank it up!
You'll also need it louder to get a more useful waterfall. You should be 40 dB above your noise floor, which is usually around 45 to 50 dB.
Michael
so i made a few changes
1. added a minidsp 2x4 to smoothen out the room mode peaks on the sub
2. did a measurement at higher level

this is what i got


looks like PEQ from minidsp did smooth out the sub till about 25db. but audyssey seems to undo some of that gain. it is still pulling down the levels below 50Hz, almost same as before. on the waterfall with LCR, the pull seems to be about 10db+ at 26Hz


Also, seems this is the maximum level at which I can measure. Anything above this, I start getting clipping warnings in REW. I am using a mac with HDMI (soundflower) setup to run REW, using umik-1 with 90deg calibration file from minidsp
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post #17649 of 18582 Old 02-07-2016, 10:04 AM
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I've been enjoying the REW software with my UMIK-1 mic for several weeks now and finally feeling like I'm getting a good feel of what I'm doing, but I'm uncertain on an aspect of the setup configuration that could be impacting my measurements. I've read through the master doc for REW and many pages and maybe I've missed it, but I can't recall finding the answer.

Question: When level matching all the subs (working w/ 4 at the moment), what volume on the pre/pro & dB on the subs combo should I be using?

I've done level matching at 75/80/85 for various measurement runs and sometimes I've used -20/-15/-10 (varying for diff runs, but same within a measurement run for consistency), but I'm wondering what's the best practice. I watch movies around -15 & TV around -30. My concern is if I match the subs to 75 dB at -10 then I'll never feel that punch when I watch at -15.

My pre/pro is a Yamaha CX-A5100, using 2x PSA V1800s plus 2x Aperion Bravus (only because I have them and including them actually lifts some of the range, but may drop down to just the PSAs).

It was very satisfying last night to run the sub sweep, EQ it, import to MiniDSP 2x4 unbalanced, and then see the corrections. Fun hobby stuff here.

I appreciate the guidance and my apologizes if I've missed the glaring answer to this question. Thanks.

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Last edited by mattboyer; 02-07-2016 at 10:18 AM. Reason: additional info
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post #17650 of 18582 Old 02-07-2016, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattboyer View Post
I've been enjoying the REW software with my UMIK-1 mic for several weeks now and finally feeling like I'm getting a good feel of what I'm doing, but I'm uncertain on an aspect of the setup configuration that could be impacting my measurements. I've read through the master doc for REW and many pages and maybe I've missed it, but I can't recall finding the answer.

Question: When level matching all the subs (working w/ 4 at the moment), what volume on the pre/pro & dB on the subs combo should I be using?

I've done level matching at 75/80/85 for various measurement runs and sometimes I've used -20/-15/-10 (varying for diff runs, but same within a measurement run for consistency), but I'm wondering what's the best practice. I watch movies around -15 & TV around -30. My concern is if I match the subs to 75 dB at -10 then I'll never feel that punch when I watch at -15.

My pre/pro is a Yamaha CX-A5100, using 2x PSA V1800s plus 2x Aperion Bravus (only because I have them and including them actually lifts some of the range, but may drop down to just the PSAs).

It was very satisfying last night to run the sub sweep, EQ it, import to MiniDSP 2x4 unbalanced, and then see the corrections. Fun hobby stuff here.

I appreciate the guidance and my apologizes if I've missed the glaring answer to this question. Thanks.
You might find useful information in the MiniDSP guide linked in my sig.

As for the sub level, first of all I recommend gain-matching rather than level-matching. This is explained in the guide. HST, if you are not using room correction in the AVR, than I would aim for a combined level of 75dB, measured at the MLP. This assumes that your main speakers measure 75dB as well. And, of course, many people prefer a little more bass, so they would aim for something higher than 75dB. So there is really no right answer.

If you are using room correction, then the room correction should be adjusting the sub channel trim so that it matches the other speakers.
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post #17651 of 18582 Old 02-07-2016, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
You might find useful information in the MiniDSP guide linked in my sig.

As for the sub level, first of all I recommend gain-matching rather than level-matching. This is explained in the guide. HST, if you are not using room correction in the AVR, than I would aim for a combined level of 75dB, measured at the MLP. This assumes that your main speakers measure 75dB as well. And, of course, many people prefer a little more bass, so they would aim for something higher than 75dB. So there is really no right answer.

If you are using room correction, then the room correction should be adjusting the sub channel trim so that it matches the other speakers.
Thank you, Jerry. I'll read through the MiniDSP guide. I hadn't seen that.

So 75dB is a good matching point then and I'll work on gain matching instead of level matching.

But what volume level should I be using on the prepro to get that 75dB?

Thanks again.

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post #17652 of 18582 Old 02-07-2016, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mattboyer View Post
Thank you, Jerry. I'll read through the MiniDSP guide. I hadn't seen that.

So 75dB is a good matching point then and I'll work on gain matching instead of level matching.

But what volume level should I be using on the prepro to get that 75dB?

Thanks again.
I don't know. Trial and error?
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post #17653 of 18582 Old 02-07-2016, 12:37 PM
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I don't know. Trial and error?
Thanks. Will do.

Wasn't sure if the general guidance was to use 0, movie listening vol, or some other general rule of best vol level for setting the 75dB.

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post #17654 of 18582 Old 02-07-2016, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mattboyer View Post
Thanks. Will do.

Wasn't sure if the general guidance was to use 0, movie listening vol, or some other general rule of best vol level for setting the 75dB.
Sorry, maybe I misunderstood your original question. When I check the output levels of any speakers, I play the level-setting test tones from my AVR. In earlier models of my AVR's (all Denon or Marantz models), the speaker level-setting test tones were always output with MV=0. On my current model, for some reason this is no longer true. So yes, adjust the AVR MV=0, measure the sub output at the MLP, and adjust the plate amps on your subs so that the combined output reaches 75dB. Note that the individual sub levels will be lower than 75dB, but the combined level will be louder. This, by the way, is why I advocate gain-matching, rather than level-matching.
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post #17655 of 18582 Old 02-08-2016, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Sorry, maybe I misunderstood your original question. When I check the output levels of any speakers, I play the level-setting test tones from my AVR. In earlier models of my AVR's (all Denon or Marantz models), the speaker level-setting test tones were always output with MV=0. On my current model, for some reason this is no longer true. So yes, adjust the AVR MV=0, measure the sub output at the MLP, and adjust the plate amps on your subs so that the combined output reaches 75dB. Note that the individual sub levels will be lower than 75dB, but the combined level will be louder. This, by the way, is why I advocate gain-matching, rather than level-matching.
Ahh, great! Thank you Jerry. That makes a lot of sense and I'll use MV at 0 for setting these.

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Still a work in progress, but thought I'd show what's possible if you have enough bass traps and absorption in your room. Blows away any system I've ever heard.

Started building 4 part bass traps, with each part made of 4" thick Owen Corning 703 with two panels glued back to back. Makes an awesome 16" x 8 foot x 2 foot bass trap. Plus it's versatile as you can use the 4 parts as 8" panels for side walls.

Made a heck of a difference even in my very well tuned system that is world class.
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post #17657 of 18582 Old 02-08-2016, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post
Still a work in progress, but thought I'd show what's possible if you have enough bass traps and absorption in your room. Blows away any system I've ever heard.

Started building 4 part bass traps, with each part made of 4" thick Owen Corning 703 with two panels glued back to back. Makes an awesome 16" x 8 foot x 2 foot bass trap. Plus it's versatile as you can use the 4 parts as 8" panels for side walls.

Made a heck of a difference even in my very well tuned system that is world class.
The frequency response graphs and the waterfalls are indeed impressive. The left channel ETC is showing a peculiar reflection towards the middle of the graph. Any idea what that is? Otherwise, the ETC's look nice as well. Great job!
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Etc..Would you mind posting pictures of your room with the traps?

Projector & Screen: Panasonic AE8000u 3D w/HTB Anamorphic Lens & 130" 2.35:1 CIH Screen
Video: DVDO Edge Audio: Emotiva XMC-1 / XPA-3 / UPA-7
Speakers: Ascend Acoustics Sierra-2 (L R C), Emotiva UAC-8.2 (side), ERD-1s (rear)
Subwoofers: SVS PC-2000 & eD A3-300 12" 350w Sensory: Aura Pro Bass Shakers
My Theater
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post #17659 of 18582 Old 02-08-2016, 01:24 PM
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Etc..Would you mind posting pictures of your room with the traps?
+1. Would like to see how it looks.
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post #17660 of 18582 Old 02-08-2016, 04:51 PM
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Hello, sorry for the ignorance of subject, how do you quote a section only of a long post with images, in other words quoting only a paragraph without the rest of the long post or images attached? Thank you.
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post #17661 of 18582 Old 02-08-2016, 07:09 PM
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Here you go. It's pretty easy to make, just wrap two 4" sheets of Owen's Corning 703, making 4 units, then stack them together as needed.

Going to make four more this week for my side walls.

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Etc..Would you mind posting pictures of your room with the traps?
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post #17662 of 18582 Old 02-08-2016, 07:16 PM
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Wow, that is a regular man-cave! Just curious, looking at picture #6 , which seems to be showing either the side or rear surrounds. It seems to me that anyone sitting in that back row will get a peculiar soundstage. Am I seeing things right?
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post #17663 of 18582 Old 02-08-2016, 07:17 PM
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post #17664 of 18582 Old 02-08-2016, 07:22 PM
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post #17665 of 18582 Old 02-09-2016, 05:29 AM
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Unfortunately, it is a compromise for the rear seats given my space. Rest assured though everything is setup with a no-compromise approach to the money seat (MLP). I even do a single seat Dirac calibration.

The sound is still very good in back, but there is no way to ever get all seats to perform as well as the front seat, so I don't even try. I probably use the room for 70% music and 30% movies.

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Wow, that is a regular man-cave! Just curious, looking at picture #6 , which seems to be showing either the side or rear surrounds. It seems to me that anyone sitting in that back row will get a peculiar soundstage. Am I seeing things right?

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post #17666 of 18582 Old 02-09-2016, 05:39 AM
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Unfortunately, it is a compromise for the rear seats given my space. Rest assured though everything is setup with a no-compromise approach to the money seat (MLP). I even do a single seat Dirac calibration.

The sound is still very good in back, but there is no way to ever get all seats to perform as well as the front seat, so I don't even try. I probably use the room for 70% music and 30% movies.
Nice graphs and room. Tell me, what subs are those and whats that on top of them (and why)?
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post #17667 of 18582 Old 02-09-2016, 05:43 AM
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It feels and sounds incredible! It amazes me how many of these so called "experts" try to sell you $600+ diffusers and say you don't want too much absorption.

Every time I've added more absorption I've had gains in sound quality. Doesn't make things sound dead at all. If anything makes things sound real, as in scarily life-like. I have never heard a system do what my "little" Klipsch system can do. I've heard a half million dollar stereo system too.

Can't wait to add 4 more 8" Owens Corning 703 panels this week. The four under the screen I added last week got rid of a 257Hz room node that has plagued me for a long time (see attached). Attached are the plots from two weeks ago with dual SVS PB13-ultra subs and no 8 foot x 2 foot bass trap.

The ultras were great subs, just took up too much floor space preventing me from adding that huge bass trap under the screen.

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Wow, your T60 is 120ms?? That's incredible.
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post #17668 of 18582 Old 02-09-2016, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post
Unfortunately, it is a compromise for the rear seats given my space. Rest assured though everything is setup with a no-compromise approach to the money seat (MLP). I even do a single seat Dirac calibration.

The sound is still very good in back, but there is no way to ever get all seats to perform as well as the front seat, so I don't even try. I probably use the room for 70% music and 30% movies.
Looking at your graphs, I have no doubt that it sounds great. And I can certainly understand the challenges of a small room. I do the same as you--optimize for one seat.

BTW, I am also a Dirac Live user. What equipment do use to provide Dirac room correction? I am a MiniDSP 88A user.
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post #17669 of 18582 Old 02-09-2016, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Looking at your graphs, I have no doubt that it sounds great. And I can certainly understand the challenges of a small room. I do the same as you--optimize for one seat.

BTW, I am also a Dirac Live user. What equipment do use to provide Dirac room correction? I am a MiniDSP 88A user.
Emotiva XMC-1 with Emotiva's Dirac full license. Been using the default house curve that slopes the low end up 2dB and the high end down.

One of the best sounding processors I've heard. Replaced my Marantz AV8801 and couldn't be happier. The noise floor is ultra low on the XMC-1, compares to Classe, Anthem D2v, etc...

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post #17670 of 18582 Old 02-09-2016, 06:52 AM
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Every time I've added more absorption I've had gains in sound quality. Doesn't make things sound dead at all. If anything makes things sound real, as in scarily life-like.
Amen to that. Stereo (or multichannel) is essentially made in (and therefore for) very dry (and even near-anechoic) environments. While it's true that spaciousness and envelopment is caused by reflections, these reflections should come from the recording, not the room. This is where the 'wide dispersion loudspeaker' and 'room reflections are good' theory falls flat on its face.
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