Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 591 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17701 of 18582 Old 02-13-2016, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
To be honest, I don't see a significant difference between the green and dark blue waterfalls. The EQ has flattened the response curve. Nothing seems to have put a dent into the issue at ~50Hz.

Can you describe the treatments you added?
Jerry,

I should have been clearer. Just started with treatments. I'm sure I'll be adding more now. I wasn't really sure what it would look like in my room and what effect it would have to my ears(anyway). So what I added was I got the Gik Room Kit#1(plus a couple of extra Monster Bass Traps):

(3) 242 Acoustic Panels - These two are placed in the second reflection zone and one behind the center channel(I'm experimenting, I didn't know what to do with the last one).

(4) 244 Bass Traps with FlexRange Technology - Two are place in the first reflection zone and two are kiddie cornered behind the front main channels in the corners.

(3) Monster Bass Trap with FlexRange Technology(range limiters) - These three are between the rear surrounds on the back wall.

Some of this advice came from Gik, some was my playing around. I was told by Gik to get a couple of Soffits for the front corners and I plan to. I just started with this to see the effects. I also am trying to work around the rooms looks and problems. The room is prewired and the audio cable for the front L and R are in the corners blocking perfect placement of the Soffit Bass Traps from floor to ceiling.

I am sure I will be adding and changing more
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post #17702 of 18582 Old 02-13-2016, 02:41 PM
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If anyone lives near Columbia, SC, feel free to PM your phone number if you want a jaw dropping demo.

For the low freq extension the Emotiva Dirac Full version I use will do strange stuff to me like short me a few Hz sometimes! The only difference this time was that I had the subs in always on mode before running Dirac. I will always do that for now one.

You can bet that very few have ever heard a system like my "little" Klipsch setup with the JL F212's! Too many on AVS (outside of this forum obviously) seem to go after SPL and not room acoustics. It is really crazy how folks will chase their tail by sub and speaker upgrade after upgrade without fixing the real problems. Anyways, chasing my tail is how I ended up with my beloved Klipsch Palladium setup (so not all bad and can be fun too), but I have to wonder that my problems with the previous 3 setups I went through was ALL due to acoustics!

Then the other third on the forums want to use inferior and outdated technology like records that will never have the dynamic range of what a well mastered CD can provide and tube amps that can add distortion. Then you got dealers who seem legit, but then try to sell you magical speaker cables and power cords (instead of room treatments which are much cheaper).

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Originally Posted by audnutz View Post
Awesome improvement. My bad on the waterfall...was looking at where the vertical access was set to about 97dB, so was figuring it was about a 35dB span....but now i see it was more/less around 99dB so close enough!

I'm sure those treatments have made a much more audible improvement than many would believe w/o doing it themselves.

Premise, a FREE home automation program. Open-source Z-Wave Premise Module found here.
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post #17703 of 18582 Old 02-13-2016, 04:05 PM
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post #17704 of 18582 Old 02-14-2016, 06:11 PM
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If I want to measure spl levels during a movie to make sure I'm not listening too loud, is z weighted, fast on the spl logger the way to go? And on the logger what do the various colored lines mean?
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post #17705 of 18582 Old 02-14-2016, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
If I want to measure spl levels during a movie to make sure I'm not listening too loud, is z weighted, fast on the spl logger the way to go? And on the logger what do the various colored lines mean?
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/nois...okatnoise.html

Markus

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post #17706 of 18582 Old 02-15-2016, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
If I want to measure spl levels during a movie to make sure I'm not listening too loud, is z weighted, fast on the spl logger the way to go? And on the logger what do the various colored lines mean?
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/nois...okatnoise.html
Between a, c, and z weighting, which is best for this purpose? From what I read here, z appears to be the best option.

http://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/spldose.htm#apxa

And is fast or slow response more meaningful?
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post #17707 of 18582 Old 02-15-2016, 12:22 PM
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Depends on what you're trying to do. The CDC numbers are based on A-weighted measurements.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #17708 of 18582 Old 02-15-2016, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Depends on what you're trying to do. The CDC numbers are based on A-weighted measurements.
Trying to determine what are safe listening levels for home theater/movies
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post #17709 of 18582 Old 02-15-2016, 11:57 PM
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The CDC numbers is the best we have.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #17710 of 18582 Old 02-16-2016, 02:56 PM
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Can anyone tell me would it be possible to simply move one sub to various positions around the room, measure the response each time and then just add up measurements from two various positions somehow to approximately determine how would in room response look if I had two subs?
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post #17711 of 18582 Old 02-16-2016, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Can anyone tell me would it be possible to simply move one sub to various positions around the room, measure the response each time and then just add up measurements from two various positions somehow to approximately determine how would in room response look if I had two subs?
if you have the correct phase relationship between the measurements (e.g. use a loopback or some other way to correctly align them) then yes
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post #17712 of 18582 Old 02-16-2016, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Can anyone tell me would it be possible to simply move one sub to various positions around the room, measure the response each time and then just add up measurements from two various positions somehow to approximately determine how would in room response look if I had two subs?
I am not sure I understand Matt's response. Because two subs interact with each other, I think it would be difficult to predict what the two-sub response would be. Of course, Matt has far more experience than I do, so I would not rule out that it couldn't be done.

I can, however, say from personal experience, two subs will certainly give you improved response. But will it be the perfect response? Can't say, of course, but I now have four subs...
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post #17713 of 18582 Old 02-16-2016, 04:04 PM
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It is just the complex sum of 2 sound waves. In rew terms, this is the trace arithmetic function.

You just need a consistent time reference across the measurements to do this.
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post #17714 of 18582 Old 02-16-2016, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
It is just the complex sum of 2 sound waves. In rew terms, this is the trace arithmetic function.

You just need a consistent time reference across the measurements to do this.
Can you explain what does consistent time reference mean?
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post #17715 of 18582 Old 02-16-2016, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Can you explain what does consistent time reference mean?
For example

https://www.avforums.com/threads/diy...#post-20764195
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post #17716 of 18582 Old 02-17-2016, 06:18 AM
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post #17717 of 18582 Old 02-17-2016, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
Does this require a non-usb mic?
that link does, another approach uses a reference signal on the same channel. I think I've described that somewhere before, in this thread maybe?
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post #17718 of 18582 Old 02-18-2016, 04:10 PM
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I've been working on this for weeks.. here's my best results. Mixture of Audyssey XT32 + Phase/PEQ controls on my 2 PB13 Ultras.

To me 0-300 looks great. 200-300 is very dependant on mic position though, couple inches in either direction and it will cause some ~10db dips. I have three 10DB dip bettween 300hz and 1khz, and one big 15hz dip around 2-3k. Can't seem to get rid of those no matter how I place my sofa/speakers... not sure how this would rate on a scale of 1-10.

Call it good or keep trying?
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post #17719 of 18582 Old 02-18-2016, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrindor View Post
I've been working on this for weeks.. here's my best results. Mixture of Audyssey XT32 + Phase/PEQ controls on my 2 PB13 Ultras.

To me 0-300 looks great. 200-300 is very dependant on mic position though, couple inches in either direction and it will cause some ~10db dips. I have three 10DB dip bettween 300hz and 1khz, and one big 15hz dip around 2-3k. Can't seem to get rid of those no matter how I place my sofa/speakers... not sure how this would rate on a scale of 1-10.

Call it good or keep trying?
I agree, below 300Hz looks good. I wouldn't spend any more time there. But what is happening above 300Hz? There are some wild swings in the frequency response. Normally that is the easy part to control. Whether you continue working on the upper range depends on how it sounds to you.
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post #17720 of 18582 Old 02-18-2016, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I agree, below 300Hz looks good. I wouldn't spend any more time there. But what is happening above 300Hz? There are some wild swings in the frequency response. Normally that is the easy part to control. Whether you continue working on the upper range depends on how it sounds to you.
Well, let's see. I got a 22x17ft room with 6' 10" ceilings, down the dead center of the room is a soffit that is 4 feet wide and brings the ceiling down to only 6" under it. It's probably causing all sorts of problems. It's a dedicated room. the only thing in this room is a Sofa, and the 7.2.4 setup.

I have I have 14 244 GIK traps in here, as well as the tri-traps in the corners for acoustical treatment. I assume if my panels were killing those highs, it'd be across the entire 1k-20k range. If I take them down there's some serious echo even when talking, so that's not an option. With the panels on the walls, there's no echo at all even when going around the room clapping/yelling.

I use the default "Audyssey" EQ. Looking at the graph, it turns down the 2K range about 6-7dB, and well as the 6khz + range and that's what the chart is showing. The "flat" EQ, which Audyssey recommends for "close listening" doesn't do this, but I never tried it. If memory serves, Audyssey trims the highs by default to reduce harshness/treble. It may be over compensating because I run a full Klipsch Reference setup which has very harsh horns.

I sadly put my mic away and it's now too late to test if the "flat" Audyssey EQ also does it.

Last edited by Tyrindor; 02-18-2016 at 05:01 PM.
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post #17721 of 18582 Old 02-18-2016, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrindor View Post
Well, let's see. I got a 22x17ft room with 6' 10" ceilings, down the dead center of the room is a soffit that is 4 feet wide and brings the ceiling down to only 6" under it. It's probably causing all sorts of problems. It's a dedicated room. the only thing in this room is a Sofa, and the 7.2.4 setup.

I have I have 14 244 GIK traps in here, as well as the tri-traps in the corners for acoustical treatment. I assume if my panels were killing those highs, it'd be across the entire 1k-20k range. If I take them down there's some serious echo even when talking, so that's not an option. With the panels on the walls, there's no echo at all even when going around the room clapping/yelling.

I use the default "Audyssey" EQ. Looking at the graph, it turns down the 2K range about 6-7dB, and well as the 6khz + range and that's what the chart is showing. The "flat" EQ, which Audyssey recommends for "close listening" doesn't do this, but I never tried it. If memory serves, Audyssey trims the highs by default to reduce harshness/treble. It may be over compensating because I run a full Klipsch Reference setup which has very harsh horns.

I sadly put my mic away and it's now too late to test if the "flat" Audyssey EQ also does it.
Audyssey has a mid-range compensation dip around 2Khz, so that would be the explanation. As I said, if everything sounds good, no need to be concerned.
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post #17722 of 18582 Old 02-18-2016, 05:19 PM
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Here's Audyssey Flat vs Reference (first picture), as you can see Flat is an improvement in the 2K+ areas. 1-2k is still... strange. I moved the mic about 1 foot away from the sofa back and it seemed to improve it some. Then I got to thinking, perhaps it is just the back of the sofa causing it. So I reclined the MLP and put the mic what my face generally is while watching movies, you can see results (second picture). That seems much better to me!

EDIT: Attaching 3rd picture to show difference between 1 inch of height with the seat reclined. I feel like the mic is definitely picking up frequencies/nulls from being a tad too close to the sofa because it's a drastic difference. Both of these seem more or less pretty good to me?
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post #17723 of 18582 Old 02-19-2016, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I agree, below 300Hz looks good. I wouldn't spend any more time there. But what is happening above 300Hz? There are some wild swings in the frequency response. Normally that is the easy part to control.
Huh? In my opinion this is by far the hardest frequency range to control. Around the Schroeder frequency there's modal and boundary interference problems that are hard to analyze and improve.

Markus

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post #17724 of 18582 Old 02-19-2016, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Huh? In my opinion this is by far the hardest frequency range to control. Around the Schroeder frequency there's modal and boundary interference problems that are hard to analyze and improve.
From what I read, the best you can hope for in a residential setting is +/- 5DB in the <300hz range and +/- 10DB in the 300hz to 20khz range. That's pretty much what I am getting, depending on mic placement. Every inch of mic placement makes a difference, but I've read that's normal in every room and since we have 2 ears, small nulls/peaks are usually not detectable.

Last edited by Tyrindor; 02-19-2016 at 10:24 AM.
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post #17725 of 18582 Old 02-19-2016, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrindor View Post
From what I read, the best you can hope for in a residential setting is +/- 5DB in the <300hz range and +/- 10DB in the 300hz to 20khz range. That's pretty much what I am getting, depending on mic placement. Every inch of mic placement makes a difference, but I've read that's normal in every room and since we have 2 ears, small nulls/peaks are usually not detectable.
The problem is that what we hear is very different from what a steady-state curve is showing.

Markus

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post #17726 of 18582 Old 02-19-2016, 01:51 PM
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The problem is that what we hear is very different from what a steady-state curve is showing.
Thanks, I'm new to this whole REW thing and I've been trying my best to learn how to get the most out of my system. Spent about 20 grand overall on audio so I feel like I should learn how to properly calibrate it. I re-ran audyssey with some tweaks, I used PEQ/Phase control on the subs afterwards to reduce peaks and nulls. This was recommended by SVS to always reset PEQ and Phase controls before running Audyssey and then adjust them for fine tuning afterwards.

I reclined the home theater seating which allowed me to put the mic closer to where my ears actually are. Here are the results. There's a slightly bigger null at 60hz and 105hz, but overall no more than ~8dB variance across the entire 15hz to 7khz sweep and the issues above 300hz are gone. This seems pretty dang good to me, but I honestly don't know how to read any of these charts minus the first one.

Do these tell you what you need to know? Do you see any problems?

Greatly appreciated.
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post #17727 of 18582 Old 02-19-2016, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrindor View Post
Do these tell you what you need to know? Do you see any problems?.
Can you upload the .mdat to Dropbox or similar?
What kind of seats do you have? Pictures?

Markus

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post #17728 of 18582 Old 02-20-2016, 02:10 PM
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Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic &amp; HDMI Connection) Including Measuremen...

I just received my umik and got everything set up today to do my first measurements. Attached is a picture of my first measurement.



So being a newbie, I have a few questions about REW.

1. How do you post the nice graphs like above instead of a picture like I did?

2. This measurement is only LCR and LFE. How do you measure all 8 channels? I have the laptop hooked up to HDMI but can't get the download to work on my old laptop.

3. Now that I have measured, what do I do about it?!?

4. What is a "good" measurement supposed to look like?
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post #17729 of 18582 Old 02-20-2016, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claybe View Post
I just received my umik and got everything set up today to do my first measurements. Attached is a picture of my first measurement.

So being a newbie, I have a few questions about REW.

1. How do you post the nice graphs like above instead of a picture like I did?

2. This measurement is only LCR and LFE. How do you measure all 8 channels? I have the laptop hooked up to HDMI but can't get the download to work on my old laptop.

3. Now that I have measured, what do I do about it?!?

4. What is a "good" measurement supposed to look like?
I suggest you give member AustinJerry's REW guide a read. Most of the questions you have will be answered and you'll have a lot better understanding of the current issues in your room. You can find it linked in his signature.
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post #17730 of 18582 Old 02-20-2016, 04:03 PM
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Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic &amp; HDMI Connection) Including Measuremen...

I read the guide and that answered a few of my questions (1&2) but not 3 & 4. Is there some sort of measurement that is ideal? Also, would a mini dsp fix my "problem" areas? Assuming that is the whole point to this measuring then what unit is recommended? Being new to this I am just trying to figure it out. This is a whole new arena that I didn't know existed!

Last edited by Claybe; 02-20-2016 at 04:07 PM.
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Dayton , Dayton Audio , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew

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