Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 601 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #18001 of 18560 Old 03-18-2016, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
the graph posted looks pretty good to me
It does.

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post #18002 of 18560 Old 03-18-2016, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Not from the wife, I'm sure.
Apply some EQ What about building a speaker grille to cover the drivers?

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post #18003 of 18560 Old 03-18-2016, 02:51 PM
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That was what I was implying with the fabric suggestion.
I'm right about the "acoustic transparency" then?

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #18004 of 18560 Old 03-18-2016, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
That was what I was implying with the fabric suggestion.
I'm right about the "acoustic transparency" then?
Are you still talking about the wife?
Normal speaker grill cloth will do. Actually any fabric you can easily blow through will do. Spandex, burlap, etc.

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post #18005 of 18560 Old 03-18-2016, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
I'm not Markus but I'll ask a Q anyway... what do you think is lacking from your current setup? the graph posted looks pretty good to me (I would shape it slightly differently but that's my preference)
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
It does.
Besides the ringing around 20-40 Hz, yes it does. When I get home, I'll upload .mat file with the measurements of my current setup. Waterfall is representing it but .mat has more info.
3ll3d00d: can you please elaborate on "I would shape it slightly differently but that's my preference". What's your preference? I have Dirac and one beauty of it is full flexibility to shape the curve.
My goal is to get as clear and punchy bass as I can. I don't like boomy bass. I like punchy and high impact (hitting in the check) bass.
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Thx
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
I think you first should conduct some meaningful measurements whether this expenditure is worthwhile.
I think I do have near field measurements at home pc. If not the I'll take the readings and will post them.

Last edited by SherazNJ; 03-18-2016 at 03:33 PM.
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post #18006 of 18560 Old 03-18-2016, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
Besides the ringing around 20-40 Hz, yes it does. When I get home, I'll upload .mat file with the measurements of my current setup. Waterfall is representing it but .mat has more info.
3ll3d00d: can you please elaborate on "I would shape it slightly differently but that's my preference". What's your preference? I have Dirac and one beauty of it is full flexibility to shape the curve.
My goal is to get as clear and punchy bass as I can. I don't like boomy bass. I like punchy and high impact (hitting in the check) bass.

Thx


I think I do have near field measurements at home pc. If not the I'll take the readings and will post them.
Boomy bass is typically bass that has frequency peaks to make it sound one noted. I personally wouldn't call that substantial ringing, change your window settings and it will probably become less obvious but anyway it is quite low compared to the direct signal.

With respect to shape, it looks a touch humped to me. Hard to be sure on a waterfall though.

Last edited by 3ll3d00d; 03-18-2016 at 04:00 PM.
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post #18007 of 18560 Old 03-18-2016, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Question: based on these measures the CC+sub dips below the FL+sub and FR+sub on both sides of 300Hz or so. My CC is about half a foot lower than the bookshelf mains in terms of tweeter height. Additionally, it is somewhat off-axis since that is the only way to get it flush with the TV stand.

Would angling it up help with that rather wide dip?
I tried angling it up (and letting YPAO set trims instead of SPL meter tool in REW): seems to have improved above 300Hz nicely, though some issues below 300Hz persist.
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UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings
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post #18008 of 18560 Old 03-18-2016, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
Boomy bass is typically bass that has frequency peaks to make it sound one noted. I personally wouldn't call that substantial ringing, change your window settings and it will probably become less obvious but anyway it is quite low compared to the direct signal.

With respect to shape, it looks a touch humped to me. Hard to be sure on a waterfall though.
I'll post fr soon. Can u please clarify what you mean by a touch bumped? Do you mind sharing yours or may be dB values across Hz?
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post #18009 of 18560 Old 03-18-2016, 08:57 PM
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@markus767 , @3ll3d00d or anyone interested, here is .mat fie that represents my current system where one sub is hugging front wall and another hugging back wall.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/acw25rw5e5...07db.mdat?dl=0
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post #18010 of 18560 Old 03-19-2016, 06:29 AM
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Hi all, my first post in this thread. I've started treating my room which is about 11.8 feet x 9.3 feet. I already have acoustic ceiling and now I'm going to treat the walls. I started with the bass by setting up bought bass traps in the corners behind the couch. It's four "superchunk corner" from a company called Sounds of science. They've been tested by a test laboratory with these results:
Click image for larger version

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I measured before setting them up, left, right and sub speakers with no Dirac on:
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And this is after:
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I can see some small improvements, but I thought they would do more. Did I expect too much from this?

One thing I will try is that now I have two on top of each other but they won't reach all the way up to the ceiling. I'll try and put something between them so they'll reach all the way up.
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post #18011 of 18560 Old 03-19-2016, 08:09 AM
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@markus767 , here is the sub right behind MLP placed horizontally as you asked.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ve5yfqymw2...0MLP.mdat?dl=0
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post #18012 of 18560 Old 03-19-2016, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
@markus767 , here is the sub right behind MLP placed horizontally as you asked.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ve5yfqymw2...0MLP.mdat?dl=0
Thanks. How far from the driver is the mic in these measurements?
Looks like the front wall midpoint is your best option.

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post #18013 of 18560 Old 03-19-2016, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Thanks. How far from the driver is the mic in these measurements?
Looks like the front wall midpoint is your best option.
I had the sub hugging the seat. So I'd say like 2 feet from center of driver. The water fall I posted wasn't just sub at center of front wall. I have one at center of front wall and one at center of rear wall and they both are hugging the walls.

How much of a difference can one hear when sub have no room ringing below 300ms vs what I have? I completely understand that it is subjective to who is listening. But on average within our fellow AVS fellows who knows and understand to a degree of what a room does to sound and pay attention to clarity of sound, how much of a difference would they hear?
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post #18014 of 18560 Old 03-19-2016, 08:54 AM
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You can get great results with bass traps, it is possible. However, if you want exceptional results it has been my experience you need matching subs that are shared the same mono signal and some sort of room equalization. You also want a room that is sealed so you can get some room gain.

I have 8 Owens Corning 703 bass traps I made, these are stacked to make them deeper in some locations but each is 4 feet x 2 feet x 8 inches, just wrapped in fabric. I also have 8 GIK Acoustic corner bass traps. Stacking the DIY bass traps to 16 inches deep gave me awesome results. Best bang for your buck I've found. Far better than what you can buy.

Here is a plot of my right channel, but I assure you I am also using Dirac and multiple subs. I'm willing to bet all the pretty looking waterfall plots on here are doing the same.



Here are some links to my google drive so folks can play with my REW file if they want:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1...2lYYl85N1BRNkE

Room dimensions:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1...zBnZmdOMW5MbXM

Room pictures (the foam looks pretty, but don't buy it. I went foam->GIK Acoustics-> DIY. I promise you DIY is the best. GIK is limited in size to what UPS ground will deliver, so for bass traps, DIY can be big and the bigger the better.):
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1...EI3eDVXd0xBM2s

Quote:
Originally Posted by mR_Mo View Post
Hi all, my first post in this thread. I've started treating my room which is about 11.8 feet x 9.3 feet. I already have acoustic ceiling and now I'm going to treat the walls. I started with the bass by setting up bought bass traps in the corners behind the couch. It's four "superchunk corner" from a company called Sounds of science. They've been tested by a test laboratory with these results:
Attachment 1323633

I measured before setting them up, left, right and sub speakers with no Dirac on:
Attachment 1323649

And this is after:
Attachment 1323657

I can see some small improvements, but I thought they would do more. Did I expect too much from this?

One thing I will try is that now I have two on top of each other but they won't reach all the way up to the ceiling. I'll try and put something between them so they'll reach all the way up.
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Last edited by etc6849; 03-19-2016 at 09:27 AM.
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post #18015 of 18560 Old 03-19-2016, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
I had the sub hugging the seat. So I'd say like 2 feet from center of driver. The water fall I posted wasn't just sub at center of front wall. I have one at center of front wall and one at center of rear wall and they both are hugging the walls.
At one point you did show one sub at front wall midpoint. That looked pretty good too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
How much of a difference can one hear when sub have no room ringing below 300ms vs what I have? I completely understand that it is subjective to who is listening. But on average within our fellow AVS fellows who knows and understand to a degree of what a room does to sound and pay attention to clarity of sound, how much of a difference would they hear?
Compare to headphone playback. Download the following low frequency bursts. Listen to them via headphones and then listen to them via speakers.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ls/LF_TEST.zip

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post #18016 of 18560 Old 03-19-2016, 09:25 AM
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Is ETC the best way (after mirror trick) to find early reflection points?
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post #18017 of 18560 Old 03-19-2016, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
I'll post fr soon. Can u please clarify what you mean by a touch bumped? Do you mind sharing yours or may be dB values across Hz?
by a touch humped I mean the response is shaped a bit like an arc, you can see it clearly in the FR you posted (and also the level of the sub and mains seems off to me)

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here's mine, no hump

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post #18018 of 18560 Old 03-19-2016, 09:39 AM
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What is wrong with the Audioholics guys? I had previously thought they were scientific, but ran across this video this week.

Seriously, they call bass traps and waterfall plots snake oil in the video! It is clear Gene is using additional curve smoothing on his waterfall plot (beyond the 1/48 REW uses as default) too.

To say all bass traps do is absorb energy at the cost of headroom is none sense. What about all the previously lost energy (due to wave cancellations) that bass traps give back from fixing dips in a response plot? I mean seriously, why bad mouth something you've never tried and admit in the same video you've never tried it and act like your an expert giving scientific fact?

There's also an article on their site I'm not going to link to as I don't think they deserve the ad money you'd get for clicking on it.

Sure 5 subs are great, but this so called "expert" even says in the video he runs two of them as stereo left and right lol!?! I guess I'd be bitter too if I paid Auralex $50k to treat my theater, and didn't even get a soffit bass trap or corner traps to show for it... Don't have any respect for this guy anymore, and won't be visiting his site again.

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Last edited by etc6849; 03-19-2016 at 09:49 AM.
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post #18019 of 18560 Old 03-19-2016, 09:52 AM
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Yes. Don't forget about your ceiling though when adding absorption to the first reflection points. Also, a thick rug with padding on the floor isn't a bad idea.

You can do calculations or better yet just use a couch cushion you move around and iterative measurements to find the peaks (e.g. reflections) on the ETC plot.

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Is ETC the best way (after mirror trick) to find early reflection points?

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post #18020 of 18560 Old 03-19-2016, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
At one point you did show one sub at front wall midpoint. That looked pretty good too.



Compare to headphone playback. Download the following low frequency bursts. Listen to them via headphones and then listen to them via speakers.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ls/LF_TEST.zip
thx. So we have successfully established that having sub in center is best. The only issue is to add 22ms delay to back sub. I can get miniDSP 2x4 HD which can add up to 80ms of delay. My only issue is that it uses balanced connection and I have no idea/experience on how to use managed connections otherwise I think its a no brainer to get this miniDSP HD and add 22 ms of delay and bring room modes down to 350ms regardless of how hot I want to use my subs (as long as both subs are set to equal gain).
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post #18021 of 18560 Old 03-19-2016, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post
What is wrong with the Audioholics guys? I had previously thought they were scientific, but ran across this video this week.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq05vAAnryY

Seriously, they call bass traps and waterfall plots snake oil in the video! It is clear Gene is using additional curve smoothing on his waterfall plot (beyond the 1/48 REW uses as default) too.

To say all bass traps do is absorb energy at the cost of headroom is none sense. What about all the previously lost energy (due to wave cancellations) that bass traps give back from fixing dips in a response plot? I mean seriously, why bad mouth something you've never tried and admit in the same video you've never tried it and act like your an expert giving scientific fact?

There's also an article on their site I'm not going to link to as I don't think they deserve the ad money you'd get for clicking on it.

Sure 5 subs are great, but this so called "expert" even says in the video he runs two of them as stereo left and right lol!?! I guess I'd be bitter too if I paid Auralex $50k to treat my theater, and didn't even get a soffit bass trap or corner traps to show for it... Don't have any respect for this guy anymore, and won't be visiting his site again.
Thanks for painting our website with a broad brush. I saw your comment on our Youtube video and responded as follows:

Quote:
First nobody called bass traps snake oil. I'm sorry that you misinterpret what we've said. Bass Traps do work and they can be a viable option for sound reproduction in small room room acoustics and are absolutely essential for sound production in recording studios. While you can measure a few points in space and show how bass traps fill in nulls in the room, the overall sound level in the room drops. Absorption ABSORBS. If you don't believe this, measure a speaker at 1 meter in an anechoic chamber and then measure it again in a real room. You will note, depending on location in the room and frequency in question, the in-room measurement will be anywhere between 6-18dB louder b/c of boundary gain and room gain. I suggest getting a copy of Sound Reproduction: Loudspeakers and Rooms by Dr. Floyd Toole as he goes into detail about this. There are NO free lunches, absorption turns energy into heat which means you lose some output. The default settings for REW don't show enough time domain resolution which is what we were getting at in the video. You need to change the window time to around 40ms if you want the waterfall to actually show a more accurate representation of decay rates in your room. Otherwise, you're masking the decay rate and seeing an almost infinite straight line of ringing for the entire span of the graph. WE actually have a video coming online next week that discusses this. Also regarding EQ, we aren't talking about Audyssey, we are talking about something far more effective called Sound Field Management (SFM) which is a Harman tech that crunches away measured data for each sub to properly set delay, phase, level and EQ to minimized seat-seat variations BEFORE applying a global EQ to all subs. Audyssey is NOT that sophisticated. What I did with mDSP is close but still note to the level of SFM.
As for stereo bass, you missed the point. My main speakers are designed to play as a single unit, hence why I configured their bass drivers for stereo bass. I wasn't concerned about stereo bass below 80Hz but between 80Hz to 300Hz. I also used the EQ of mDSP to help improve that region b/c EQ is still effective up to the room transition frequency (300-400Hz). For those that don't know what a room transition frequency is, it's the region where the room stops being the major influence of sound and the speaker takes over. This is part of the reason why above the transition frequency, Auto-EQ correction becomes ineffective and unpredictable.

If you found a combination of multi-sub + EQ + bass traps that work, then more power to you! Multi-sub properly setup will cut down on the amount of LF bass trapping that you will need, but bass traps are still a viable option in your bag of tricks for improving bass response. I've heard several JBL Synthesis demos using multi-sub and SFM that had absolutely NO LF bass trapping and the bass was tight, even and spectacular for EVERY seat. The science works!

PS. I'm using no curve smoothing. I leave every waterfall set to the default 1/48 octave.
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post #18022 of 18560 Old 03-19-2016, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
by a touch humped I mean the response is shaped a bit like an arc, you can see it clearly in the FR you posted (and also the level of the sub and mains seems off to me)

Attachment 1324265

here's mine, no hump

Attachment 1324273
Your image doesn't show what smoothing you are using and how many dB hotter you are running your sub. The peaks or hump you see in mine is because of room playing role here. I didn't design the curve to have that shape precisely but due to room modes (specially around 300-800), it looks all bumpy.
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post #18023 of 18560 Old 03-19-2016, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
Your image doesn't show what smoothing you are using and how many dB hotter you are running your sub. The peaks or hump you see in mine is because of room playing role here. I didn't design the curve to have that shape precisely but due to room modes (specially around 300-800), it looks all bumpy.
I'm not talking about the peaks and bumps, you can see through them to the underlying shape easily enough. Stick something like psy smoothing or a frequency dependent window on yours & you'll see what I mean.

Here's an example with a 4 cycle fdw

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your sub is ~8-9dB hotter than 250-750Hz then it steps up 2-3dB and has signs of a gentle rise to 10kHz. Obviously it might be your preference to have the sub step up like that, that's preference for you

I don't know what you mean about how many dB hotter I'm running my sub, that curve is my target curve. I think your one was 1/12 octave? Here's mine with 1/12 for comparison

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post #18024 of 18560 Old 03-19-2016, 12:22 PM
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Gene, would you be so kind to post your REW file here for us to study? I hear you about the waterfall plot settings, but it makes it hard for your readers to compare your plots to other plots found here when you change the settings. If you want, just post a plot for your best seat because some of us are curious. I have no doubt if I added two more subs to my setup it'd sound slightly better than just two subs and the waterfall would look even better.

Also I never said absorption doesn't absorb, of course it does (I thought you were an EE like me, so I didn't state the obvious in my post here). Anyways, what I'm saying is there is a lot of energy that was previously lost due to wave cancellations that IS regained using bass traps (e.g. bass traps fix the dips). No one said this was a free lunch, so maybe you are not understanding what I'm saying? There is some energy that was previously lost to the room's characteristics, that is being regained with bass traps, so this net loss of energy you are so concerned about is lower than you might think. For example, here is a pic linked from Ethan's site:


Also, for others who really follow what your video says, they will not get as good of performance as multiple subs + some DIY bass traps. This is because DIY bass traps like the ones I made from OC 703 4" layers absorb way higher and even help mid and high frequency reflections too. Your method as you know only helps below the crossover freq set for your subs.

Sounds like you are concerned about lost efficiency, so how much energy do you think would be lost by adding lots of bass traps? Have you ever measured this or have a reference for us that does? My setup has tons of headroom and sounds great to me, with very very little ringing, but I'm using Dirac + multiple subs + acoustic treatments. Not trying to be sarcastic, but I'm genuinely curious. Anything I can do to my setup to improve things, I am going to at least study objectively.

Not sure if you used Dirac, but it's been very predictable for me. It appears their new system "Dirac Unison" will do exactly what you describe for Harmon's SFM, but I don't have Dirac Unison yet. As you imply, nothing wrong with wrong with not treating above 300 Hz if that's your preference, but hopefully your viewers add acoustic panels to treat early reflections. Dirac has always sounded great for me though, and I measure everything before and after in REW with no curve smoothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene DellaSala View Post
Thanks for painting our website with a broad brush. I saw your comment on our Youtube video and responded as follows:

First nobody called bass traps snake oil. I'm sorry that you misinterpret what we've said. Bass Traps do work and they can be a viable option for sound reproduction in small room room acoustics and are absolutely essential for sound production in recording studios. While you can measure a few points in space and show how bass traps fill in nulls in the room, the overall sound level in the room drops. Absorption ABSORBS. If you don't believe this, measure a speaker at 1 meter in an anechoic chamber and then measure it again in a real room. You will note, depending on location in the room and frequency in question, the in-room measurement will be anywhere between 6-18dB louder b/c of boundary gain and room gain. I suggest getting a copy of Sound Reproduction: Loudspeakers and Rooms by Dr. Floyd Toole as he goes into detail about this. There are NO free lunches, absorption turns energy into heat which means you lose some output. The default settings for REW don't show enough time domain resolution which is what we were getting at in the video. You need to change the window time to around 40ms if you want the waterfall to actually show a more accurate representation of decay rates in your room. Otherwise, you're masking the decay rate and seeing an almost infinite straight line of ringing for the entire span of the graph. WE actually have a video coming online next week that discusses this. Also regarding EQ, we aren't talking about Audyssey, we are talking about something far more effective called Sound Field Management (SFM) which is a Harman tech that crunches away measured data for each sub to properly set delay, phase, level and EQ to minimized seat-seat variations BEFORE applying a global EQ to all subs. Audyssey is NOT that sophisticated. What I did with mDSP is close but still note to the level of SFM.

As for stereo bass, you missed the point. My main speakers are designed to play as a single unit, hence why I configured their bass drivers for stereo bass. I wasn't concerned about stereo bass below 80Hz but between 80Hz to 300Hz. I also used the EQ of mDSP to help improve that region b/c EQ is still effective up to the room transition frequency (300-400Hz). For those that don't know what a room transition frequency is, it's the region where the room stops being the major influence of sound and the speaker takes over. This is part of the reason why above the transition frequency, Auto-EQ correction becomes ineffective and unpredictable.

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post #18025 of 18560 Old 03-19-2016, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post
Gene, would you be so kind to post your REW file here for us to study? I hear you about the waterfall plot settings, but it makes it hard for your readers to compare your plots to other plots found here when you change the settings. If you want, just post a plot for your best seat because some of us are curious. I have no doubt if I added two more subs to my setup it'd sound slightly better than just two subs and the waterfall would look even better.

Also I never said absorption doesn't absorb, of course it does (I thought you were an EE like me, so I didn't state the obvious in my post here). Anyways, what I'm saying is there is a lot of energy that was previously lost due to wave cancellations that IS regained using bass traps (e.g. bass traps fix the dips). No one said this was a free lunch, so maybe you are not understanding what I'm saying? There is some energy that was previously lost to the room's characteristics, that is being regained with bass traps, so this net loss of energy you are so concerned about is lower than you might think. For example, here is a pic linked from Ethan's site:


Also, for others who really follow what your video says, they will not get as good of performance as multiple subs + some DIY bass traps. This is because DIY bass traps like the ones I made from OC 703 4" layers absorb way higher and even help mid and high frequency reflections too. Your method as you know only helps below the crossover freq set for your subs.

Sounds like you are concerned about lost efficiency, so how much energy do you think would be lost by adding lots of bass traps? Have you ever measured this or have a reference for us that does? My setup has tons of headroom and sounds great to me, with very very little ringing, but I'm using Dirac + multiple subs + acoustic treatments. Not trying to be sarcastic, but I'm genuinely curious. Anything I can do to my setup to improve things, I am going to at least study objectively.

Not sure if you used Dirac, but it's been very predictable for me. It appears their new system "Dirac Unison" will do exactly what you describe for Harmon's SFM, but I don't have Dirac Unison yet. As you imply, nothing wrong with wrong with not treating above 300 Hz if that's your preference, but hopefully your viewers add acoustic panels to treat early reflections. Dirac has always sounded great for me though, and I measure everything before and after in REW with no curve smoothing.
My point is anytime you use absorption, the average level will go down depending on how much absorption your using. This is true even if some of the nulls are being filled out. You can see this in Ethan's own measurement where the energy below 50Hz is being reduced after trapping. In addition, you can't just measure a few points in space and declare the net difference is zero. It doesn't work that way. Ironically Dr. Toole just authored an article for us that addresses this topic and it will go live on the site next week.

I'd also draw your attention to this curve comparing energy before/after trapping that I found on this website where you can see the average level dropping with absorption present:
http://www.radford.edu/~shelm/acoustics/bass-traps.html

I have also attached a waterfall from my front center seat with the settings superimposed. You want high resolution in the time domain for waterfall so you can properly see the decay rates in the room. But, for high resolution frequency info, look at the attached corresponding steady state graph.
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Best Regards;

Gene DellaSala (GDS)
President, Audioholics.com
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post #18026 of 18560 Old 03-20-2016, 12:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow!

I must say it was quite disappointing to read that Gene basically thinks the whole acoustical engineering field for sound reproduction and everyone involved are snake oil salesmen.

In fact, I couldn't believe that comment could be true, so I spent 49 minutes of my life to watch the video for myself.

I'm shocked. I'm very disappointed. I can't believe what I saw and heard.

We have taken great pains to teach in this thread that the solution is never to simply throw a bunch of insulation into a room (bass traps) and call it a day just as EQ by itself is never the answer.

What's with the argument that absorbers absorb and that's a bad thing?

Also, what's with talking about the $125 Mini-DSP unit you have and are obviously peddling but showing the almost $1000 Dirac unit which you don't even talk about? Talk about confusing and contradictory information to the target audience of that video.

This is one of the most active and popular threads on AVS so I can't help but think when you refer to snake oil salesmen and when you do weird, snarky, and mocking voices with the clear intention to stick your nose up to and insult the acoustics industry that you aren't also thinking of threads like this when you imply acousticians and acoustical consultants are scam artists and the services we provide and products we offer are unnecessary in the reproduction of music yet are mandatory for the production of music. Why would it matter if the sound is coming from an instrument or a speaker? Why would one call for acoustical treatment while the same treatment would be a waste of money for the other?

Quite frankly, a lot of your arguments are contradictory. I find in interesting that by the end of the video you seem to have convinced yourself that maybe there is something to the snake oil after all when you mention Glen, from G-I-K Acoustics has been kind enough to send review samples of "bass traps" to you. I can't wait to see and/or read what you have to say about him/them. Will those review samples (read- free stuff) change your "tune?"

Acoustical treatment is necessary in small room acoustics. It just is. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. If audio nirvana (mentioned several times in the video) is the goal, there just isn't a magical solution. You MUST treat the room. EQ is only a band-aid and can only do so much. It is part of the solution, but not the whole solution, and quite frankly, I thought you knew that.

It is a science to prescribe the correct acoustical treatments and to make sure they are installed correctly and that they have the intended effect. When the proper treatments are used in the proper way, little to no EQ is necessary.

I use a Mini-DSP 10x10hd processor in my own theater, but only for shelving filters and shaping for custom built subs with none of the EQ shaping commercial subs already have integrated.

You also talk about how fixing the frequency domain fixes the time domain because the bass is minimum phase. Well, the bass is only minimum phase....except for when it isn't. Look at the group delay and compare the nulls. Is all of the bass minimum phase or is only "most" of it minimum phase? Your argument that you don't need anything but EQ and more subs for bass because it's minimum phase just isn't accurate; because not all bass is or acts as minimum phase and it's different for every room. The part that ISN'T minimum phase (the problem areas) needs treatment because EQ just isn't going to work.

I don't need EQ other than for shaping because I have used the proper acoustical treatments and have installed them in the correct places. I also have multiple subs but I would never say any one thing would work. It takes a special combination of equipment and acoustical materials and a lot of knowledge on how to use them to have truly well integrated bass. 100 subs won't do it just as 1 sub with a ton of insulation won't do it. Why do you imply otherwise?

You also mention acoustical treatments make the room look bad. While at best that is a personal opinion, it is quite insulting to everyone from acoustical consultants to interior decorators to the SAF to presume that we are unable to work together to hide the acoustical treatments or to make them blend in and look great. There are so many obvious ways to hide acoustical treatments or to make them blend in and look great that I won't spend the time and energy to dignify that comment further.

You also seem to bring everything down to the lowest common denominator and assume all any of the "Snake oil salesmen" would prescribe to treat a room is insulation aka bass trapping. Not everything about acoustics has to do with dealing with the bass, yet you seem to bring the whole industry down to that one topic and that one method for dealing with it.

To say that treatment isn't necessary in any musical reproduction room is not only wrong, it's downright dangerous. Especially when you have the readership/viewership you have. You have an implied obligation and fiduciary responsibility to be honest and accurate in your statements. Who knows how many people watched or will watch that video and never achieve audio nirvana because they will never even consider acoustical treatments thanks to you. How many professionals will that video negatively affect directly?

I suggest you spend a bit of time learning about all the different types of treatments that can be used to good effect to solve acoustical problems and how they can be hidden and/or blended into a room.

A great place to start is this thread.

By the way, we have (from the very beginning of this thread) implemented very strict guidelines that everyone adhere's to for posting measurements here. All of the measurements are posted with the same REW settings so we are always comparing apples to apples. If someone steps out of line, they are swiftly corrected; and so are their measurements.

You didn't imply, rather you outright stated that "those people" will trick you by smoothing or manipulating the settings to make your situation look bad or good depending on how it would best serve the acoustician. I would never do such a thing. AustinJerry, Marcus, et al would NEVER do such a thing. You have insulted and belittled every bit of our effort, which we share only because we enjoy this hobby and because we want other people to enjoy their rooms as much as we do. None of us would ever stake our reputations on dishonest or misinformation. None of us make a dime from the time and energy we invest into this thread and this industry, either.

In fact, YOU are the only one who is making money from your statements!

I want to know who you are talking about when you call out the dishonest people? Are you talking about Glen at G-I-K? Are you talking about Ethan at Realtraps? Are you talking about me, the creator of this thread; or the many regular contributors of this thread? Who exactly should people interested in improving the acoustics in their room for music "re" production steer clear of?

I'm really disappointed with what I saw and heard in that video, Gene. I actually had respect and admiration for you until watching this video and reading your comments. I'm saddened I feel it necessary to respond to the video and comments in this way.

With proper acoustical treatment, you wouldn't need 5 subs, by the way.

You also imply that everything about the acoustics in a room can be understood by the lowest common denominator; the frequency response.

Just because you don't understand more about the time domain, how it affects the sound in the room, and the difference between LEDE, RFZ, and other acoustical models that would take into consideration from the beginning that there is a finite amount of energy in a room and the real problem isn't whether to absorb it all up or not, but rather how to control that finite energy, where to send it, and how, doesn't mean there isn't a whole industry of honest and legitimate folks who have spent a lifetime researching and sharing their knowledge of just how small room acoustics does work and how to handle it.

The bottom line is those people have done so much for music and sound reproduction in our homes and in my opinion deserve better than to be called snake oil salesmen and con artists.

--J

Thanks to EVERYONE that Helps Make These Threads so Awesome!

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post #18027 of 18560 Old 03-20-2016, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post
What is wrong with the Audioholics guys? I had previously thought they were scientific, but ran across this video this week. [...].
Don't like the loud-mouthed and condescending tone of the video but most of the points raised are valid.

Couple of additions:

The claim that the low frequency response in acoustically small rooms would generally be minimum phase is false, especially when you add one or more subs.
Explanation and examples:
http://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/hel...imumphase.html

Dialing in multiple subs requires a lot of knowledge and time. Anybody not familiar with measurements and the concept of phase will have a very steep learning curve ahead. Even then the task is virtually impossible without the help from software that can go through a huge amount of cases in order to find the best configuration. SFM is proprietary software. Here's a free alternative:
http://andyc.diy-audio-engineering.o...tml/index.html
Optimizing subwoofers and integration with mains: multi sub optimizer

After you've fixed the sub frequency region you need to fix the transition region around the crossover and higher up. This can't (yet) be done electronically or with an active absorption approach like in the subwoofer region. Only passive absorption can help.

Regarding efficiency of passive vs. active absorption: any effective approach will be inefficient. Best example is a DBA: you need multiple subs just to "cancel" the energy from the front array. ALL the energy the back array emits is completely inaudible (when done right) although it plays as loud as the front array.
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post #18028 of 18560 Old 03-20-2016, 07:04 AM
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I looked at the site. Right where the graph is (scroll to the very bottom), it says: " Referenced pink noise was used to calibrate 70 db before running incremental 1 Hz. test tones from 20-300 Hz."

I take this to mean he/she calibrated level to 70 dB each time they ran the 1 Hz test tone. As you probably know, to test what we are discussing would require keeping electrical energy the same. I'd like to think it's only 2dB of headroom I'm losing, but I'd need a more objective test and I really can't remove my bass traps and put them back in, just not feasible.

For your install I'm sure you re-calibrate your subs when you change something, most of us here do the same thing after adding bass traps. Hopefully someone here will have a good example. For my system it will do above 120dB of acoustic output and I listen around 80dB, that's a lot of acoustical headroom. I'd sacrifice some acoustic headroom any day of the week to get the level of performance I have; I hate the sound of ringing bass and mid-bass.

Also with all do respect, why change the window and rise times though when the REW has the statement below? All you are doing is hiding any potential room issues with settings like that. Like the manual states changing the window setting ONLY controls frequency resolution. If you want more time resolution, I would try using more time slices. Also, 600ms for time span is too long.

You can see in my plots how much prettier the first one looks with your settings. I guess if you are making an article and video against bass trapping, it would be the one to use as it does hide frequency resolution so you aren't going to see ringing. It is easy to see how much more detail there is in the other plots to me anyways. Kind of makes your article seem disingenuous, although I'm sure that's not your intent.

From the REW manual: http://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/hel...waterfall.html
"After V5.0 the waterfall behaviour has been enhanced to improve control over its appearance and extend its use to include the analysis of drive unit and cabinet resonances. The left hand window width is specified independently, using a setting labelled Rise Time. Changing the Window setting only alters the Right Hand window, which means that the Window setting now controls only the frequency resolution of the waterfall - longer settings give higher resolution - without altering the waterfall's time domain behaviour. There are also controls to select how many slices the waterfall should have (up to 100) and to select the smoothing to apply to each slice. "

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene DellaSala View Post
My point is anytime you use absorption, the average level will go down depending on how much absorption your using. This is true even if some of the nulls are being filled out. You can see this in Ethan's own measurement where the energy below 50Hz is being reduced after trapping. In addition, you can't just measure a few points in space and declare the net difference is zero. It doesn't work that way. Ironically Dr. Toole just authored an article for us that addresses this topic and it will go live on the site next week.

I'd also draw your attention to this curve comparing energy before/after trapping that I found on this website where you can see the average level dropping with absorption present:
http://www.radford.edu/~shelm/acoustics/bass-traps.html

I have also attached a waterfall from my front center seat with the settings superimposed. You want high resolution in the time domain for waterfall so you can properly see the decay rates in the room. But, for high resolution frequency info, look at the attached corresponding steady state graph.
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post #18029 of 18560 Old 03-20-2016, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post
Also with all do respect, why change the window and rise times though when the REW has the statement below? All you are doing is hiding any potential room issues with settings like that. Like the manual states changing the window setting ONLY controls frequency resolution. If you want more time resolution, I would try using more time slices. Also, 600ms for time span is too long.

You can see in my plots how much prettier the first one looks with your settings. I guess if you are making an article and video against bass trapping, it would be the one to use as it does hide frequency resolution so you aren't going to see ringing. It is easy to see how much more detail there is in the other plots to me anyways. Kind of makes your article seem disingenuous, although I'm sure that's not your intent.
The default waterfall settings are set to highlight modal ringing, the large value for rise time (left window) means it takes many slices before the initial impulse is windowed out of the response. Since modal ringing lasts for a long time this leaves the ringing of the mode standing out prominently in the view. If you're looking at something other than modal ringing then it's a perfectly valid option to reduce the rise time so that you can see what else is going on. You can still have a large right window of course and hence still have sufficient frequency resolution to see what is going on. Ultimately there are many, equally valid, ways to look at this data.
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post #18030 of 18560 Old 03-20-2016, 07:33 AM
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You can get great results with bass traps, it is possible. However, if you want exceptional results it has been my experience you need matching subs that are shared the same mono signal and some sort of room equalization. You also want a room that is sealed so you can get some room gain.

I have 8 Owens Corning 703 bass traps I made, these are stacked to make them deeper in some locations but each is 4 feet x 2 feet x 8 inches, just wrapped in fabric. I also have 8 GIK Acoustic corner bass traps. Stacking the DIY bass traps to 16 inches deep gave me awesome results. Best bang for your buck I've found. Far better than what you can buy.

Thanks for the reply, I have the things that you listed, matching subs, shared mono signal, Dirac and closed room. What I have little of is space cause it's a small room. So I don't have any room for big DIY bass traps. What I've been thinking is if I could put extra insulation above the panels of the acoustic ceiling? It's just a few inches so maybe it won't do anything...
I also haven't found the famous Owens Corning 703 in my part of the world (Sweden). I'll have to search the local forums for something similar.
What I regret is building two big martysubs which I can't move to any other place, can't move mlp too much either so I'm stuck with what I have.
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