Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 604 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #18091 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
You are not making much sense here. Lets go step by step.
1. Yes you can manipulate curves in REW but you need some sort of DSP to implement them in your system, for example Dirac, miniDSP, inuke
2. AVRs are relatively limited. For example, your marantz with XT32 Audyssey will ask you to take measurements and then it will make two curves...Reference and Flat. The only difference between those two is that Reference has rolloff at high frequencies and is more suitable for typical reverberant room. So you basically have a choice of equalization: reference, flat and OFF. I assume all other stereo/surround modes get affected by choice of these (except direct).
AVR EQ also can't fix nulls, thats why human intervention is necessary (regarding sub positions for example).
3. What do you mean by one setup or another setup? Is it a different listening mode like stereo or direct? Stereo mode incorporates both your subwoofers and fronts, so your response if you positioned them right should be much better then Direct. But if you measure in Direct mode, your subwoofer and Audyssey EQ/distances/levels get turned off and you will often see some nasty nulls in your bass region.
4. What is your measurement procedure? I am pretty sure you are also inconsistent here. You should measure one speaker at the time (+ subs). You also shouldnt move microphone when comparing different measurements because there is a lots of variation even if you move mic just few inches.
I never moved the mic, i never got out of a chair, I just changed settings using the remote for the avr and hit measure on the laptop. But I am human, so maybe Im doing something wrong. my point was changing the settings in the avr caused a change in my low points so I was excited to see it possibly was a null but setup error. ie...cheap fix.

I messed up, the graphs were from 2 different days/trials so maybe the heights/exact mic locations were different....guess I know why I was never a research scientist

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Last edited by torii; 03-22-2016 at 08:51 AM.
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post #18092 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Anything with XT32 is fine. Cheapest option is probably a used Onkyo 818.
If it's just for the subs, how about just adding this:
https://reverb.com/item/1612855-behr..._wkaAjc68P8HAQ

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post #18093 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by 1201 View Post
Thanks for that link. ive read that many times. Iirc, only 8 subjects were tested and they did not state their age, gender or the listening level, which all affect perceived flatness to a great extent.

A 60 year old man listening at 60 db will more than likely not appreciate a downward sloping house curve
I posted the link just in case you had not seen it. I am likely to be older than you are, so I know what it is to not be able to hear the very highest frequencies. In my case, my main speakers already exhibit a gentle roll-off above 15KHz, which is not uncommon. Using Dirac Live's custom target editor, I try and match the speaker's normal response curve, rather than trying to boost the high end. The nice thing about custom target curves, especially if you have a product that matches the flexibility of Dirac Live, is that you can create a response target that matches your preference. And preference is just that--different for different people.
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post #18094 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
You are thinking of the house curve the wrong way...it is not lowering the high frequencies, it is boosting the low frequencies.

The high frequencies would seem to be playing at the exact same level as before the house curve, it is the low frequencies that get the needed boost.

But, to each their own.
hehe. I see what you did there

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post #18095 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Perhaps, but I DO appreciate a 3dB boost above 12K.
Part of my "house curve."
Michael

I think we are saying the same thing. the normal house curve is 0 at the low bass, gently sloping down in the high frequencies sometimes by as much as 20 db.


im saying that many people , me included, will not find this balanced.
I listen at lower volumes so my highs are boosted a bit, per the fletcher munson equal loudness curve

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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I posted the link just in case you had not seen it. I am likely to be older than you are, so I know what it is to not be able to hear the very highest frequencies. In my case, my main speakers already exhibit a gentle roll-off above 15KHz, which is not uncommon. Using Dirac Live's custom target editor, I try and match the speaker's normal response curve, rather than trying to boost the high end. The nice thing about custom target curves, especially if you have a product that matches the flexibility of Dirac Live, is that you can create a response target that matches your preference. And preference is just that--different for different people.
absolutely. Im just saying that I also thought it was fact the listeners prefer a gently sloping house curve, and I chased that for a long time.


but I have changed my opinion and I feel that many factors go into the preferred curve, and for many, it is not close to what the article by Todd suggests, or the bruel and Kjaer curve etc.

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post #18096 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 09:00 AM
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I think its mostly personal preference. I am a metalhead so I need to boost highs otherwise electric guitars artificial and natural harmonics wouldn't make my ears bleed. I also need dynamic range of 1db.
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post #18097 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 09:21 AM
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I, on the other hand, have this problem...

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post #18098 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 10:04 AM
 
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Issue with Mains phase not getting along with subs.

After spending a lot of time and following guidance from @markus767 and @AustinJerry who pointed out the issue with my subs response, I am finally able to get a good response across all the seats. Now I get flat response without any dip/null up to 90 and then it slowly goes down. This is exactly what I had been looking for all along.

After testing all the position with subs only, I was very happy with the results of subs. So I decided to run room correction. I use Dirac. It applies correction to each channel individually. After calibration was complete, I ran a sweep to see how well it did. Not good. There is a MAJOR dip at cross-over. This clearly shows the phase issue with Main and Subs. So, I started adding delay to sub channel to see if it gets any better. It did but no where close to what it should look like. It still gets 6-7db of dip and that's after adding 10 feet of distance to subs.

Question: What can I do to prevent it? Also, how can I test this issue without running whole Dirac measurement in REW. In other words, how can I test in REW the combined response of sub+main with delay included? I think after calibration, Dirac adds the delays to main/subs and after the delays are added, it is causing them to get out of phase.
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post #18099 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
Question: What can I do to prevent it? Also, how can I test this issue without running whole Dirac measurement in REW. In other words, how can I test in REW the combined response of sub+main with delay included? I think after calibration, Dirac adds the delays to main/subs and after the delays are added, it is causing them to get out of phase.
it depends what is causing it. You need measurements with a timing reference to drill into this behaviour properly, otherwise it's trial and error.
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post #18100 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
Issue with Mains phase not getting along with subs.

After spending a lot of time and following guidance from @markus767 and @AustinJerry who pointed out the issue with my subs response, I am finally able to get a good response across all the seats. Now I get flat response without any dip/null up to 90 and then it slowly goes down. This is exactly what I had been looking for all along.

After testing all the position with subs only, I was very happy with the results of subs. So I decided to run room correction. I use Dirac. It applies correction to each channel individually. After calibration was complete, I ran a sweep to see how well it did. Not good. There is a MAJOR dip at cross-over. This clearly shows the phase issue with Main and Subs. So, I started adding delay to sub channel to see if it gets any better. It did but no where close to what it should look like. It still gets 6-7db of dip and that's after adding 10 feet of distance to subs.

Question: What can I do to prevent it? Also, how can I test this issue without running whole Dirac measurement in REW. In other words, how can I test in REW the combined response of sub+main with delay included? I think after calibration, Dirac adds the delays to main/subs and after the delays are added, it is causing them to get out of phase.
Can you post separate measurements with acoustic timing enabled of L, C, R and SW? After Dirac and with bass management filters enabled.

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post #18101 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
it depends what is causing it. You need measurements with a timing reference to drill into this behaviour properly, otherwise it's trial and error.
Matt, sorry to pick on you, but a number of you continue to say that the timing reference will provide new insight into this type of trouble-shooting. This is supposed to be a learning thread. What we need is for someone to step up and provide a detailed example on how to apply the timing reference to a real-world situation, like SherazNJ's.

Anyone willing to take one for the team?
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post #18102 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
This clearly shows the phase issue with Main and Subs. So, I started adding delay to sub channel to see if it gets any better.
I'm admittedly the amateur in this esteemed group, but wouldn't changing the phase of the subs help?

Michael

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post #18103 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Matt, sorry to pick on you, but a number of you continue to say that the timing reference will provide new insight into this type of trouble-shooting. This is supposed to be a learning thread. What we need is for someone to step up and provide a detailed example on how to apply the timing reference to a real-world situation, like SherazNJ's.

Anyone willing to take one for the team?
I must have posted this link about 5 times now so I've done my bit

https://www.avforums.com/threads/diy...#post-20662039

this is a data driven thread so it needs the user, who has a problem, to step up and provide the appropriate measurements for there to be any further discussion. I haven't seen anyone do that yet hence no progress
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post #18104 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 11:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
it depends what is causing it. You need measurements with a timing reference to drill into this behaviour properly, otherwise it's trial and error.
I think Jeremy covered what I was going to say.

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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Can you post separate measurements with acoustic timing enabled of L, C, R and SW? After Dirac and with bass management filters enabled.
Let me see if I get it right. You want acoustic timing of L,C,R,SW before/After Calibration?

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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Matt, sorry to pick on you, but a number of you continue to say that the timing reference will provide new insight into this type of trouble-shooting. This is supposed to be a learning thread. What we need is for someone to step up and provide a detailed example on how to apply the timing reference to a real-world situation, like SherazNJ's.

Anyone willing to take one for the team?
Right on Jerry. We need the REW guide updated with acoustic timing info.
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post #18105 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 11:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
I'm admittedly the amateur in this esteemed group, but wouldn't changing the phase of the subs help?

Michael
changing phase on sub or adding delay on avr does the same thing. I changed delay in avr and still wasn't good results.
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post #18106 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 11:28 AM
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Let me see if I get it right. You want acoustic timing of L,C,R,SW before/After Calibration?
sounds like a plan
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post #18107 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
I must have posted this link about 5 times now so I've done my bit

https://www.avforums.com/threads/diy...#post-20662039

this is a data driven thread so it needs the user, who has a problem, to step up and provide the appropriate measurements for there to be any further discussion. I haven't seen anyone do that yet hence no progress
OK, I promise to read it closely this time, thanks.
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post #18108 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 11:30 AM
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The wavelength at 50 Hz is over 20 feet. Did you change the distance at least that much?
(technically, half that to change the phase, but wavelength is even longer at lower frequencies, so you'd need a BIG change in distance to reverse phase).
[or, of course, I'm wrong. ]
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post #18109 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 12:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
The wavelength at 50 Hz is over 20 feet. Did you change the distance at least that much?
(technically, half that to change the phase, but wavelength is even longer at lower frequencies, so you'd need a BIG change in distance to reverse phase).
[or, of course, I'm wrong. ]
Michael
Here is a twist to this whole phase issue. I have Gamma 218 Subs from RA. The sub contains two 18" drivers facing side ways. When I had sub placed Horizontally (drivers facing side walls)hugging back wall, I didn't have to add even a foot. But in that case, I don't get the best results for subs. When I change subs from Horizontal to Vertical (drivers facting front and back walls) and move them around 9" away from back wall, I get very good sub response but Major phase issues.

I am starting to wonder if this sub design of having two drivers on opposite side vs having them aligned in front is causing it? Could it?
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post #18110 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
changing phase on sub or adding delay on avr does the same thing. I changed delay in avr and still wasn't good results.
No, not really...the two are quite different actually.

Changing phase only aligns the sub at one frequency, proper time-alignment (using digital delay) aligns the sub at all frequencies.
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post #18111 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
Let me see if I get it right. You want acoustic timing of L,C,R,SW before/After Calibration?
After calibration and bass management, so 4 measurements with acoustic timing reference. You could do an additional measurement L+SW so I can check if the acoustic timing reference did work.

Markus

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Last edited by markus767; 03-22-2016 at 01:35 PM.
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post #18112 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 01:47 PM
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No, not really...the two are quite different actually.

Changing phase only aligns the sub at one frequency, proper time-alignment (using digital delay) aligns the sub at all frequencies.
wut?

I don't know where you get the idea that time alignment == phase alignment

a phase dial is typically an all pass filter, i.e. a frequency dependent phase shift
a delay is a fixed time offset, i.e. a frequency dependent phase shift (as the amount of time represented by a 1 degree phase shift varies by frequency)

so there are differences in how they are implemented and the results may well be different (because they likely apply different phase shifts) but they are not different at all in principle
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post #18113 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
wut?

I don't know where you get the idea that time alignment == phase alignment

a phase dial is typically an all pass filter, i.e. a frequency dependent phase shift
a delay is a fixed time offset, i.e. a frequency dependent phase shift (as the amount of time represented by a 1 degree phase shift varies by frequency)

so there are differences in how they are implemented and the results may well be different (because they likely apply different phase shifts) but they are not different at all in principle
So, you are saying that once Audyssey time aligns subs I can still play with phase to get better results?
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post #18114 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 02:15 PM
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So, you are saying that once Audyssey time aligns subs I can still play with phase to get better results?
well no, I didn't say anything about what that means for audyssey, I'm just saying how it works. Note that this also doesn't mean I'm saying you can't improve matters, that just depends on your situation.
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post #18115 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 02:18 PM
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is this a dirac or audyseey discussion?

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5 Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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is this a dirac or audyseey discussion?
neither. Its a discussion of phase aligning speaker with sub. I just happen to be using dirac for calibration and in order to determine the issue, Markus among others want me to share the data.
Guys, I'll upload the file once I get home.
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post #18117 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
neither. Its a discussion of phase aligning speaker with sub. I just happen to be using dirac for calibration and in order to determine the issue, Markus among others want me to share the data.
Guys, I'll upload the file once I get home.
sweet, as i am interested in this

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post #18118 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 02:41 PM
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Here are couple of impulse measurements for those interested.
First picture is my typical Center channel impulse response. Then I added one ceiling 2'x4'x4" broadband absorber.
Then I added a nice wool blanket on couch.
Then 3 2'x4' absorbers on sidewall and additional ceiling absorber.
Last picture targets spike produced by floor reflection, I treated that one by putting 3 small fluffy fake fur pillows in front of center channel (they do seem to produce a big bump in frequency response from 500-700 Hz lol so i must see if that will be an issue).
I lost last measurement somehow though.

Anyway, although I have not tried out center yet, I played some music (and although there is a few more issues for fronts up to 10 ms because i didn't target them) and improved clarity is amazing. Stuff like Two Steps From Hell and typical classical music finally doesn't sound like a noisy mess.
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post #18119 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
No, not really...the two are quite different actually.

Changing phase only aligns the sub at one frequency, proper time-alignment (using digital delay) aligns the sub at all frequencies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
wut?

I don't know where you get the idea that time alignment == phase alignment

a phase dial is typically an all pass filter, i.e. a frequency dependent phase shift
a delay is a fixed time offset, i.e. a frequency dependent phase shift (as the amount of time represented by a 1 degree phase shift varies by frequency)

so there are differences in how they are implemented and the results may well be different (because they likely apply different phase shifts) but they are not different at all in principle
Well, I was embarrassingly misinformed/uneducated....after doing some more research on phase/delay this afternoon, you are (of course) correct 3ll3d00d. I apologize for any confusion I may have caused to the OP.

Good news is, after doing all that reading on phase/delay, I have some ideas to try in my own system to maybe improve things a bit more.
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post #18120 of 23551 Old 03-22-2016, 02:47 PM
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Interesting. So manually time aligning usually improves things? I use the Emotiva XMC-1 with the Emotiva version of Dirac Full. Seems to time align my subs with my main speakers.

Is it some issue with accuracy? There are a few phase issues on my plots, but I had assumed they were caused by my room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
well no, I didn't say anything about what that means for audyssey, I'm just saying how it works. Note that this also doesn't mean I'm saying you can't improve matters, that just depends on your situation.
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