Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 613 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #18361 of 23602 Old 04-03-2016, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I have observed that turning the HPSLOPEON setting on can have some peculiar effects on the frequency response. By peculiar, I mean unexpected.
What filter order did you set? DL offers even order (2, 4, ...) Linkwitz-Riley filter. They do shift phase. See http://www.rane.com/note160.html

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post #18362 of 23602 Old 04-03-2016, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
What filter order did you set? DL offers even order (2, 4, ...) Linkwitz-Riley filter. They do shift phase. See http://www.rane.com/note160.html
Order 8 for Sub HPSLOPE, order 4 for LR HPSLOPE. I experimented with the values, as well as the cutoff value, in order to achieve the desired target shape. Regardless, I experimented earlier today, and tweaking these parameters had no effect on the dip at 40Hz, so I returned them to their original values.
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post #18363 of 23602 Old 04-03-2016, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post



It seems a bit odd that you are focusing on the 5 dB dips at 40 Hz and 125 Hz while ignoring
the 10 dB to 12 dB dropout at around 240 - 250 Hz. That's right near the top end of the
midbass region. While you may or may not hear those dips at those lower frequencies, you
will hear (not hear) that larger dip.
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post #18364 of 23602 Old 04-03-2016, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by sam_adams View Post
It seems a bit odd that you are focusing on the 5 dB dips at 40 Hz and 125 Hz while ignoring
the 10 dB to 12 dB dropout at around 240 - 250 Hz. That's right near the top end of the
midbass region. While you may or may not hear those dips at those lower frequencies, you
will hear (not hear) that larger dip.
The dip in the 250Hz region is non-minimum phase, so not much can be done about it. It has been there forever, and is likely something to do with my room/equipment configuration that is not easily changed. Believe me, I have worked on it. The focus of the discussion is the 40hz dip, because it is in a minimum phase area, and appeared after the front sub polarity was reversed
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post #18365 of 23602 Old 04-04-2016, 03:27 AM
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I have a couple of impulse response spikes that I have only managed to partially treat. For example, spike that was at -6dB was at -12dB after placing a broadband absorber (DIY). So what are my options to drop it to recommended -20? Thicker and better built trap (more transparent fabric maybe)? Or combination of diffusion/absorption on said spot?

Here is measurement of center + sub (boosted a bit much lol) after audyssey calibration.
100-2000 Hz area looks like a total mess, right now I have only treated first reflections, no bass traps in corners yet. Would Dirac be more successful at ironing out frequency response in that range?
There is also impulse response of cc, first reflections treated, but only with partial success.
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post #18366 of 23602 Old 04-04-2016, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donktard View Post
I have a couple of impulse response spikes that I have only managed to partially treat. For example, spike that was at -6dB was at -12dB after placing a broadband absorber (DIY). So what are my options to drop it to recommended -20? Thicker and better built trap (more transparent fabric maybe)? Or combination of diffusion/absorption on said spot?

Here is measurement of center + sub (boosted a bit much lol) after audyssey calibration.
100-2000 Hz area looks like a total mess, right now I have only treated first reflections, no bass traps in corners yet. Would Dirac be more successful at ironing out frequency response in that range?
There is also impulse response of cc, first reflections treated, but only with partial success.
I see several issues, which you seem to be already aware of. First, you are correct, Audyssey doesn't seem to be doing a very good job. However, room correction can only do so much. Could you provide a measurement with Audyssey off so that we can see how much work Audyssey needs to do, and how effective it actually is? Whether Dirac could do better depends on how much work needs to be done.

Regarding the taming of reflections, there is no magic. More treatments, more effective treatments, and making sure they are placed properly is the answer.

But what about the almost total lack of high frequencies? There seems to be no response above 10KHz. That seems a bit odd.

And the amount of bass boost is just insane.
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post #18367 of 23602 Old 04-04-2016, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I see several issues, which you seem to be already aware of. First, you are correct, Audyssey doesn't seem to be doing a very good job. However, room correction can only do so much. Could you provide a measurement with Audyssey off so that we can see how much work Audyssey needs to do, and how effective it actually is? Whether Dirac could do better depends on how much work needs to be done.

Regarding the taming of reflections, there is no magic. More treatments, more effective treatments, and making sure they are placed properly is the answer.

But what about the almost total lack of high frequencies? There seems to be no response above 10KHz. That seems a bit odd.

And the amount of bass boost is just insane.
I will post measurements soon. See fig.5 in link. Although this is center C208, they behave pretty much the same, notice the rolloff after about 8kHz. Something similar is happening in my room, but those highs get crushed way too easy. I will measure nearfield too, just to figure out whats wrong with that.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/r...dX2CFLGFFIk.97

I will turn bass down to reference, I have actually turned gain up as usual, but due to the room treatments added it seems they took so much energy out of highs that it just looks ridiculously excessive compared to what i normally had
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post #18368 of 23602 Old 04-04-2016, 09:00 AM
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First shows response with or without traps, no audyssey.
Second shows without audyssey vs audyssey reference (flat barely makes a difference).

It seems that putting traps around really likes to ruin 200-300 Hz area. I know i can fix 95 Hz boost but don't have trap large enough yet (and maybe dip that comes right after), but I wonder what happened between 60-80 Hz after calibration.

Regarding rollof in highs...i get very mixed results, both nearfield and at MLP, maybe C208 tweeters waveguide feels real picky about launching those highs around the room
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post #18369 of 23602 Old 04-04-2016, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donktard View Post
I will post measurements soon. See fig.5 in link. Although this is center C208, they behave pretty much the same, notice the rolloff after about 8kHz. Something similar is happening in my room, but those highs get crushed way too easy. I will measure nearfield too, just to figure out whats wrong with that.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/r...dX2CFLGFFIk.97

I will turn bass down to reference, I have actually turned gain up as usual, but due to the room treatments added it seems they took so much energy out of highs that it just looks ridiculously excessive compared to what i normally had
Revel makes fine loudspeakers, but I don't see the HF roll-off in the Stereophile review measurements. Do you have the speakers angled so they point exactly at the MLP? And is the height of the measurement mic close to the same height as the tweeters? What you are seeing could be an off-axis response. I would try a near-field measurement to ensure the tweeters are working properly.
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post #18370 of 23602 Old 04-04-2016, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Revel makes fine loudspeakers, but I don't see the HF roll-off in the Stereophile review measurements. Do you have the speakers angled so they point exactly at the MLP? And is the height of the measurement mic close to the same height as the tweeters? What you are seeing could be an off-axis response. I would try a near-field measurement to ensure the tweeters are working properly.
I see it now, I was actually misreading that graph.
Anyway, found the problem...my microphone calibration file (ECM8000) was terribly flawed after 7000 Hz. Everything below seems more or less fine. Another obstacle on the road

EDIT: Not much I can do about it either it seems, even when removing calibration file, its still pretty chaotic. I guess its time to buy UMIK

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post #18371 of 23602 Old 04-04-2016, 09:26 PM
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@toofast68

trying to catch-up

back in January 2015 you updated your UMM6 file wrt the "sens" file from instructions generously given by @AV_mike in post 13385:

This is the first line of what I downloaded for my mike: "Sens Factor =-26.992dB, SERNO: 1280489"

It's apparent that this first line also includes my serial number . . .

Do I want/need this "SERNO: 1280489" included in the re-saved and updated calib file?

Is it some way for the file to check it is being used by the correct mike. seems like it might be

Did you just do it like instructed or did you find that an insertyion of the SERNO wasn't a needed part of the update.

what did you do, please

TY

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post #18372 of 23602 Old 04-04-2016, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
@toofast68

trying to catch-up

back in January 2015 you updated your UMM6 file wrt the "sens" file from instructions generously given by @AV_mike in post 13385:

This is the first line of what I downloaded for my mike: "Sens Factor =-26.992dB, SERNO: 1280489"

It's apparent that this first line also includes my serial number . . .

Do I want/need this "SERNO: 1280489" included in the re-saved and updated calib file?

Is it some way for the file to check it is being used by the correct mike. seems like it might be

Did you just do it like instructed or did you find that an insertyion of the SERNO wasn't a needed part of the update.

what did you do, please

TY
Not Toofast68, but if it helps, here is how the calibration file should look:

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post #18373 of 23602 Old 04-04-2016, 09:50 PM
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@AustinJ errry

thanks for confirmation
getting to work with the right stuff, priceless

again, TY

Wil

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post #18374 of 23602 Old 04-05-2016, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
@AustinJ errry

thanks for confirmation
getting to work with the right stuff, priceless

again, TY

Wil
Yup - Austin nailed it as always...
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post #18375 of 23602 Old 04-05-2016, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by toofast68 View Post
Yup - Austin nailed it as always...
In this case you were Notfastenough68....
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post #18376 of 23602 Old 04-05-2016, 06:47 AM
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In this case you were Notfastenough68....
ha...correct

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post #18377 of 23602 Old 04-05-2016, 08:04 PM
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Jerry can you explain why the Sens Factor has to have the SERNO:1280303 following it? Is this the same for a UMIK-1 as well. I didn't include the SERNO: and numbers in the first line and REW reco's my mic. TIA, if it needs to be that way I will surely do it, thanks again.
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post #18378 of 23602 Old 04-05-2016, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Jerry can you explain why the Sens Factor has to have the SERNO:1280303 following it? Is this the same for a UMIK-1 as well. I didn't include the SERNO: and numbers in the first line and REW reco's my mic. TIA, if it needs to be that way I will surely do it, thanks again.
I don't think I ever said that the serial number MUST be included. The instructions are to take the line containing the sensitivity factor from the downloaded web-site calibration file and paste it into the CSL calibration file as the first line. The serial number just happens to be on that line as well. I suspect that REW parses the first line, extracts the sensitivity factor, and ignores the rest of the line. This would be easy to test out--simply edit the calibration file, remove the serial number, save the file, and see if REW still recognizes the file correctly.
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post #18379 of 23602 Old 04-06-2016, 12:57 PM
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I've been thinking on this dang phase stuff (dangerous) and have a silly question. If I were to figure out the process of phase alignment in REW, as has been discussed recently, would I start by:

Physically measuring the distance from my center channel to the mlp then phase aligning the left and right speakers to the center followed by the subwoofer(s) (after the subs had been time aligned and eq'ed flat)?
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post #18380 of 23602 Old 04-06-2016, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
I've been thinking on this dang phase stuff (dangerous) and have a silly question. If I were to figure out the process of phase alignment in REW, as has been discussed recently, would I start by:

Physically measuring the distance from my center channel to the mlp then phase aligning the left and right speakers to the center followed by the subwoofer(s) (after the subs had been time aligned and eq'ed flat)?
If you're doing it manually:
1. Time align all satellite speakers
2. Optimize subs
3. Time/phase-align sub cluster

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post #18381 of 23602 Old 04-06-2016, 02:36 PM
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For #1 do you measure with a tape measure and set the actual distance from the center channel to the mlp in the avr, then do you adjust the distance in the avr of the Left and Right channels to align with the center based on REW measuremts or just measure their individual physical distances to the mlp? orrrr, just let audyssey set the distances for the LCR and leave them alone?
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post #18382 of 23602 Old 04-06-2016, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
Near field measurement of the woofer. It depends on where the port is though so you might not get a clean reading. I think there are other methods you can use too, some detail in http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...-acoustic.html
Thanks @3ll3d00d . Since I have sealed subs, 2 drivers in each box, 2 boxes next to each other (the Sausage sub) would I just put the Mike in the middle of the array?
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post #18383 of 23602 Old 04-06-2016, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
Thanks @3ll3d00d . Since I have sealed subs, 2 drivers in each box, 2 boxes next to each other (the Sausage sub) would I just put the Mike in the middle of the array?
bit harsh on Mike

I thought you said you had a ported sub hence wanted to measure the null? but you say sealed there so not sure what you're aiming to do
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post #18384 of 23602 Old 04-06-2016, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
bit harsh on Mike

I thought you said you had a ported sub hence wanted to measure the null? but you say sealed there so not sure what you're aiming to do
It seemed that I could determine if I had my subs overstuffed or understuffed using a nearfield measurement. I likely misunderstood ;-)

In the meantime I was hoping to pick up a used Dayton DATS kit to measure the subs to see where their QTC sat, but it seems no one let's them go. Then I saw REW can do this, so I might just try to figure that out instead.
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post #18385 of 23602 Old 04-06-2016, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I don't think I ever said that the serial number MUST be included. The instructions are to take the line containing the sensitivity factor from the downloaded web-site calibration file and paste it into the CSL calibration file as the first line. The serial number just happens to be on that line as well. I suspect that REW parses the first line, extracts the sensitivity factor, and ignores the rest of the line. This would be easy to test out--simply edit the calibration file, remove the serial number, save the file, and see if REW still recognizes the file correctly.
Jerry I don't think you said the serial# must be included as well, matter of fact I think (could be wrong) that in the guide the serial# is not pasted for the CSL mic. Mine looks like this and REW does see it. (reco)

Sens Factor =-.6368dB, I have two mics in saved files and I can choose which to measure with, I like to check if there's any deviation from the miniDSP and Herb's calibrated mic. I will try this with the serial # included in the first line and see if it makes any difference.

Sens Factor =-.6368dB, SERNO: 7010031 Thanks....
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post #18386 of 23602 Old 04-06-2016, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post

Jerry I don't think you said the serial# must be included as well, matter of fact I think (could be wrong) that in the guide the serial# is not pasted for the CSL mic.
Trust me, it doesn't matter. And for the record, the example on page 58 of the guide includes the serial number.
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post #18387 of 23602 Old 04-06-2016, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
For #1 do you measure with a tape measure and set the actual distance from the center channel to the mlp in the avr, then do you adjust the distance in the avr of the Left and Right channels to align with the center based on REW measuremts or just measure their individual physical distances to the mlp? orrrr, just let audyssey set the distances for the LCR and leave them alone?
Let Audyssey set the distance.

Alternatively measure with an acoustic timing reference and find the delay/distance between speakers by looking at their impulse responses (set to %) in Overlays > Impulses. The earliest impulse peak is distance=0. Then read the distance to the other impulse peaks and for each set distance in your AVR accordingly.

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post #18388 of 23602 Old 04-07-2016, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
It seemed that I could determine if I had my subs overstuffed or understuffed using a nearfield measurement. I likely misunderstood ;-)

In the meantime I was hoping to pick up a used Dayton DATS kit to measure the subs to see where their QTC sat, but it seems no one let's them go. Then I saw REW can do this, so I might just try to figure that out instead.
Ah OK yes you can do that, in theory at least. In practice, I have found using the FR taken near field in room to fit to a predicted FR and hence Qtc is v hard to do with any precision. I can definitely recommend using an impedance sweep instead.
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post #18389 of 23602 Old 04-07-2016, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I would buy the UMIK-1 because it's physical construction is a little sturdier. From a measurement perspective, they are roughly the same. Purchases from CSL include custom calibration files, which many consider worth the price difference.
Hi Jerry,

I heard that Dayton is a only measurement tool but MiniDSP has more functions, like creating filter for AVR and use a guide for room correction? Is that right?

If I only use it to find optimal placement of subwoofer or speakers now and might do some room correction in the future, which one might be better? Thanks.
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post #18390 of 23602 Old 04-07-2016, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I see several issues, which you seem to be already aware of. First, you are correct, Audyssey doesn't seem to be doing a very good job. However, room correction can only do so much. Could you provide a measurement with Audyssey off so that we can see how much work Audyssey needs to do, and how effective it actually is? Whether Dirac could do better depends on how much work needs to be done.

Regarding the taming of reflections, there is no magic. More treatments, more effective treatments, and making sure they are placed properly is the answer.
Tried a couple of things today, including different materials for slanted ceiling reflection and some corner traps from top to bottom. Odd enough, corner traps don't seem to do much about 250-600 Hz mess I have. If they do anything its usually just extending the dip and not doing anything with peaks.
But the issue basically seems to arise when I try to treat ceiling reflection...that specific treatment simply extends bunch of dips in 250-600Hz region and tames high frequencies. Not really sure I can do much except moving speaker/MLP. Would any sort of diffusion help in those frequency ranges?
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