Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 622 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #18631 of 22697 Old 05-02-2016, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Control Panel -> Sound -> Select your DAC in Playback tab -> Click Properties -> Select Level Tab -> Click Balance -> Set Left or Right speaker to 0.

It should work.
It would be a toss-up whether this is more effort than unplugging the speaker. I can't think of any other ways to do it.
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post #18632 of 22697 Old 05-02-2016, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by dcolaco View Post
I run a USB from my Laptop to my DAC. From there all connections are made using RCA. So L/R RCA out from my DAC to pre-amp in. Then L/R RCA out from my Pre-Amp to miniDSP inputs. Then L/R RCA from minidsp to Amp. Right now I've just been unplugging at the speakers since it's hard to get to the back of my equipment. I was wondering if REW actually sent a Stereo signal out so that i could just set it up to send only Left or only right at the PC.
What pre-amp, and does it not have HDMI inputs? Using REW with HDMI is so much easier than using Java. And does the pre-amp not have any front panel audio connections so the DAC could be eliminated from the REW connection?
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post #18633 of 22697 Old 05-02-2016, 08:26 AM
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What pre-amp, and does it not have HDMI inputs? Using REW with HDMI is so much easier than using Java.
It's a nad 320bee. Just a simple integrated that has pre outs before the amp section. Guess I should have explained better. Using this method and a minidsp to crossover my mains and yet to arrive sub.

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NAD D1050 > NAD C320BEE / MiniDSP 2x4 > PSB X2T's / Rythmik FVX15
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post #18634 of 22697 Old 05-02-2016, 09:12 AM
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In the latest V5.15 beta version you can choose to send the output to left, right or both channels via the Measure dialog (assuming you are using Java drivers).
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post #18635 of 22697 Old 05-02-2016, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
I am curious, what level of smoothing in REW would represent what a person can hear during an actual music/movie reproduction?
I don't think such a thing exists in practice (as it would need to account for power response, ie what the later arriving sound sounds like) but something like a 6 cycle fdw is probably a reasonable approximation of the first wavefront (direct sound).
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post #18636 of 22697 Old 05-02-2016, 08:19 PM
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How about the balance knob?

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post #18637 of 22697 Old 05-02-2016, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnPM View Post
In the latest V5.15 beta version you can choose to send the output to left, right or both channels via the Measure dialog (assuming you are using Java drivers).
For those of you who have not checked it out yet, here is the enhancement John is referring to (using the Java driver):




The recent enhancements to the REW interface allowing the output channel to be selected on the Measurement Panel, for both the ASIO and the Java drivers, has made taking measurements significantly easier. A big thanks to John!

Of course, now that many of the current generation processors have eliminated Dolby PLII, it has become somewhat more difficult to output to the center channel. I have yet to try the Dolby Surround Upmixer (DSU) to output to the center channel. The question is whether the signal remains relatively unaltered, like with PLII Cinema.

Last edited by AustinJerry; 05-02-2016 at 09:21 PM.
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post #18638 of 22697 Old 05-03-2016, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
For those of you who have not checked it out yet, here is the enhancement John is referring to (using the Java driver):

The question is whether the signal remains relatively unaltered, like with PLII Cinema.
Jerry, I'm not sure where it's posted here but I do recall @batpig did some measuring and found some issues with DSU not outputting to the C only. IIRC, it's because DSU uses frequency dependent steering, so when extracting the C info from L+R it actually leaves some of the bass info in the L/R channels BICBW.
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post #18639 of 22697 Old 05-03-2016, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post
Jerry, I'm not sure where it's posted here but I do recall @batpig did some measuring and found some issues with DSU not outputting to the C only. IIRC, it's because DSU uses frequency dependent steering, so when extracting the C info from L+R it actually leaves some of the bass info in the L/R channels BICBW.
Thanks, Joe. I plan on testing myself. My approach will be to first measure center channel response using HDMI3, and then change to Java and measure using DSU. Comparing the results should give us an indication of what is happening.
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post #18640 of 22697 Old 05-03-2016, 06:17 PM
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Has anyone had issues with the UMM-6 showing up as PNP device in Windows Audio Settings. For the life of me I cannot get my laptop to recognize the device as an UMM-6, however my pc does not have that issue.
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post #18641 of 22697 Old 05-03-2016, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
Hi Guys,

I finally had some time to work on EQ'ing my "Sausage Sub". Unfortunately, I can't move the boxes. They are sandwiched between the couch and the exterior wall and are down firing.

Audyssey 2eq only sets the delays and distances I think. It set the sub at 10'. Could you guys have a look at my .mdat and help me determine how i could EQ the subs and also to comment on the delay setting? I used channel 1 as the timing reference and measured channel 3 with the sub off and again with the cc of and the sub on.

I have managed to eq the subs pretty flat as you'll see in the mdat, however this took a TON of eq. I worry I used too much.

I have a nasty null at 30hz that isn't very wide. I ended up boosting 27hz to bring the bottom end up with a broad filter I think Q=2 +15db and cutting around 60hz with a broad filter of Q=1 -15db and three other higher Q filters to get it flat. It's this ok? How would you eq this?

Link to MDAT. https://www.dropbox.com/s/ufs6ibpja4...esub.mdat?dl=0

thanks,

Pete
Hi Everyone,

I tried to reword my post a little. I'm hoping you'll have a look and provide some tips on eq and delay settings for my teeny Sausage Sub. Should I post graphs rather than my mdat?

Best,

Pete
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post #18642 of 22697 Old 05-03-2016, 08:03 PM
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I just replaced my mains with JBL Studio 590. As there is no matching center (Earlier I had EC25 and E80 as mains), I am running it as phantom. It sounds much better than earlier setup.
Now to the point. I will REW in next few days and had a question. With no center speaker, should I still take the center measurement (that should actually sound from both mains) when running REW?
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post #18643 of 22697 Old 05-03-2016, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
I just replaced my mains with JBL Studio 590. As there is no matching center (Earlier I had EC25 and E80 as mains), I am running it as phantom. It sounds much better than earlier setup.
Now to the point. I will REW in next few days and had a question. With no center speaker, should I still take the center measurement (that should actually sound from both mains) when running REW?
Call it Left+Right then. For low frequency measurements below 300Hz, L+R+Subs can show useful information, especially in the waterfall. Above 300Hz, it is better to measure left and right by themselves.

Are you going to forego the center channel permanently, or do a search for a compatible speaker? Seems like the 520C might be a good match?
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post #18644 of 22697 Old 05-04-2016, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Call it Left+Right then. For low frequency measurements below 300Hz, L+R+Subs can show useful information, especially in the waterfall. Above 300Hz, it is better to measure left and right by themselves.

Are you going to forego the center channel permanently, or do a search for a compatible speaker? Seems like the 520C might be a good match?
Thanks Jerry.
As for the center, Right now it is a forced decision as 520c is not available till mid Jun. However, to be honest, the phantom is sounding much better to my ears than the dedicated center setup that I had before.
I might forego the center permanently. That's a possibility as I don't miss it (or rather liking it the way it is now).

So I will take the following measurements. (Please let me know to add/remove anything)

Left : Full Freq sweep (15Hz - 20KHz)
Right : Full Freq sweep (15Hz - 20KHz)
Left+Right : Full Freq sweep (15Hz - 20KHz)
Sub : 15Hz - 300Hz
Left+Sub : Bass managed. (15Hz - 300Hz)
Right+Sub : Bass managed. (15Hz - 300Hz)
L+R+Sub : Bass managed. (15Hz - 300Hz)

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post #18645 of 22697 Old 05-04-2016, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
Thanks Jerry.
As for the center, Right now it is a forced decision as 520c is not available till mid Jun. However, to be honest, the phantom is sounding much better to my ears than the dedicated center setup that I had before.
I might forego the center permanently. That's a possibility as I don't miss it (or rather liking it the way it is now).
In ny experience, a phantom center sounds OK if you are sitting in the MLP exactly in the center. For a seating position to the right or left, the phantom image collapses, and the dialog sounds like it is coming out of the left or right speaker, which is no longer very pleasant. If you are only concerned about the one seating position, I can see why you might opt for not having the center channel.
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post #18646 of 22697 Old 05-04-2016, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
Hi Everyone,

I tried to reword my post a little. I'm hoping you'll have a look and provide some tips on eq and delay settings for my teeny Sausage Sub. Should I post graphs rather than my mdat?

Best,

Pete
+15dB of boost down low (or anywhere for that matter) is going to eat up your headroom real quick (5x the watts to be exact). If I was you, I would try my best to bring the rest of the response down in line with the low end and not boost at all.

Also, you should try to measure at a higher SPL, around 85-90dB is more the norm.
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post #18647 of 22697 Old 05-04-2016, 10:47 AM
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+15dB of boost down low (or anywhere for that matter) is going to eat up your headroom real quick (5x the watts to be exact). If I was you, I would try my best to bring the rest of the response down in line with the low end and not boost at all.

Also, you should try to measure at a higher SPL, around 85-90dB is more the norm.
There is no difference between boost and cutting + increasing overall level. In the end, your system capability is dictated by your equipment and eq can need used to distribute that capability to your preferred spectral balance. If this means substantial changes to the response then you pay in reduced max output level. If this max output is enough and you configure the system to avoid clipping then there is no issue.

The 85-90dB thing seems a peculiarity of this thread. Fwiw I have never measured at that level as it is basically unnecessary for many (most?) purposes.
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post #18648 of 22697 Old 05-04-2016, 11:09 AM
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There is no difference between boost and cutting + increasing overall level. In the end, your system capability is dictated by your equipment and eq can need used to distribute that capability to your preferred spectral balance. If this means substantial changes to the response then you pay in reduced max output level. If this max output is enough and you configure the system to avoid clipping then there is no issue.

The 85-90dB thing seems a peculiarity of this thread. Fwiw I have never measured at that level as it is basically unnecessary for many (most?) purposes.
How exactly can i configure a system to avoid clipping...or overdriving speakers? I have a specific issue I am slightly concerned about. My DIRAC room correction on computer boosted a null around 80 Hz caused by SBIR significantly (measurements confirm +6dB difference), but DIRAC also reduced overall gain by -8dB. Of course, overall gain reduction won't do much in preventing clipping with 80Hz signal if I listen to same SPLs like without DIRAC, so therefore effectively, that specific boost will surely be the first cause of speakers melting down if I ever decide to crank them up too high.
So how can I prevent that from happening?
As a side note, my amp will never be a bottleneck regarding a power output and speakers are positioned 3 feet from my head.
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post #18649 of 22697 Old 05-04-2016, 11:47 AM
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There is no difference between boost and cutting + increasing overall level.
You are mostly correct, but I think in this case it does kind of matter. He is pouring a bunch of boost into the frequencies right next to a very deep null, some of that has to be going into the black hole of the null. IMO, it would be much better to find new sub placement to correct the null at 30hz (I realize the OP said this wasn't an option, but still).



Quote:
The 85-90dB thing seems a peculiarity of this thread. Fwiw I have never measured at that level as it is basically unnecessary for many (most?) purposes.
AFAIK, the higher level is recommended to get meaningful waterfall graphs. So yeah, it is unnecessary for most purposes...but if your taking the time to measure, wouldn't you want it to be at a level valid for all graphs?
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post #18650 of 22697 Old 05-04-2016, 12:21 PM
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You are mostly correct, but I think in this case it does kind of matter. He is pouring a bunch of boost into the frequencies right next to a very deep null, some of that has to be going into the black hole of the null. IMO, it would be much better to find new sub placement to correct the null at 30hz (I realize the OP said this wasn't an option, but still).
ok sure, you don't want to do that (pour it into a null) but your suggestion to cut instead of boost doesn't address that problem. The end result is basically the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
AFAIK, the higher level is recommended to get meaningful waterfall graphs. So yeah, it is unnecessary for most purposes...but if your taking the time to measure, wouldn't you want it to be at a level valid for all graphs?
I'm sure there are some rooms that have a noise floor high enough to warrant a higher measurement level and/or rooms where you want to see deep into the decay. I would say this is pretty unusual though and a 75dB measurement is plenty for the overwhelming majority of cases. If you don't believe me though then believe John M instead https://www.gearslutz.com/board/8951973-post7.html shows how a typical measurement gives you >=60dB SNR. Even if you just go with ambient noise floor then a typical room and a 75dB sweep gives you ~30dB and also refer to https://www.gearslutz.com/board/8973735-post18.html for discussion of why deep in the decay may not be so useful.

I'm pretty sure the links above have been posted before btw and ISTR John commenting to this effect himself in this thread.

Ultimately there's no harm in measuring at higher levels if you want to and if you don't damage your kit (shouldn't be an issue at 85-90dB for an HT system) but it's not necessary to get good data and hence it shouldn't be offered as general purpose advice.
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post #18651 of 22697 Old 05-04-2016, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donktard View Post
How exactly can i configure a system to avoid clipping...or overdriving speakers? I have a specific issue I am slightly concerned about. My DIRAC room correction on computer boosted a null around 80 Hz caused by SBIR significantly (measurements confirm +6dB difference), but DIRAC also reduced overall gain by -8dB. Of course, overall gain reduction won't do much in preventing clipping with 80Hz signal if I listen to same SPLs like without DIRAC, so therefore effectively, that specific boost will surely be the first cause of speakers melting down if I ever decide to crank them up too high.
So how can I prevent that from happening?
As a side note, my amp will never be a bottleneck regarding a power output and speakers are positioned 3 feet from my head.
understand the shape of the final EQ applied, the peak in that is your peak signal and then add ~2-3dB on top for full(er) bandwidth content. You can then work through gain structure to ensure that you can preserve that signal all the way down your signal chain and verify speaker capability using distortion traces and compression sweeps. Tread lightly while doing that and use some ear defenders!
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post #18652 of 22697 Old 05-04-2016, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
ok sure, you don't want to do that (pour it into a null) but your suggestion to cut instead of boost doesn't address that problem. The end result is basically the same.


I'm sure there are some rooms that have a noise floor high enough to warrant a higher measurement level and/or rooms where you want to see deep into the decay. I would say this is pretty unusual though and a 75dB measurement is plenty for the overwhelming majority of cases. If you don't believe me though then believe John M instead https://www.gearslutz.com/board/8951973-post7.html shows how a typical measurement gives you >=60dB SNR. Even if you just go with ambient noise floor then a typical room and a 75dB sweep gives you ~30dB and also refer to https://www.gearslutz.com/board/8973735-post18.html for discussion of why deep in the decay may not be so useful.

I'm pretty sure the links above have been posted before btw and ISTR John commenting to this effect himself in this thread.

Ultimately there's no harm in measuring at higher levels if you want to and if you don't damage your kit (shouldn't be an issue at 85-90dB for an HT system) but it's not necessary to get good data and hence it shouldn't be offered as general purpose advice.
Thanks for the lesson d00d, I will follow John's advice.
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post #18653 of 22697 Old 05-04-2016, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
There is no difference between boost and cutting + increasing overall level. In the end, your system capability is dictated by your equipment and eq can need used to distribute that capability to your preferred spectral balance. If this means substantial changes to the response then you pay in reduced max output level. If this max output is enough and you configure the system to avoid clipping then there is no issue.

The 85-90dB thing seems a peculiarity of this thread. Fwiw I have never measured at that level as it is basically unnecessary for many (most?) purposes.
In my case I measured the null across a few spots across the couch. I played with filters and taking multiple measurements to figure out how close to the null I could get. Then a cut above the null to bring down the response. In only one spot at the far end of the couch, where the null does not exist did the boost at 27hz create slight bloat. In all the other seats it sounds OK, better than it did for sure. I am definitely giving up headroom, however since I have 500w on tap per driver, my mains run out of gas before the SausageSub does. Besides headroom, does applying so much eq increase distortion, asumming the same spl?

Thanks so much guys!
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post #18654 of 22697 Old 05-04-2016, 04:12 PM
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The 85-90dB thing seems a peculiarity of this thread. Fwiw I have never measured at that level as it is basically unnecessary for many (most?) purposes.
I've wondered about this myself when trying to figure out if my room(s) need treatment for ringing.

If one rarely listens above -15db, would you not want to measure at that level in order to determine if your room ringing decays within the 350ms range? Same thing for distortion?
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post #18655 of 22697 Old 05-04-2016, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
I've wondered about this myself when trying to figure out if my room(s) need treatment for ringing.

If one rarely listens above -15db, would you not want to measure at that level in order to determine if your room ringing decays within the 350ms range? Same thing for distortion?
I suspect you mean -15 on the master volume scale. A MV setting of zero, i.e. "reference", is by definition 105dB. So -15 would be 90dB. So is this what you mean by "measure at that level"?

I think the links Matt provided are evidence that the measurement level is not critical, but if you listen at -15 and want to measure at the same level, then that suggests measuring at 90dB.
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post #18656 of 22697 Old 05-04-2016, 07:01 PM
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In ny experience, a phantom center sounds OK if you are sitting in the MLP exactly in the center. For a seating position to the right or left, the phantom image collapses, and the dialog sounds like it is coming out of the left or right speaker, which is no longer very pleasant. If you are only concerned about the one seating position, I can see why you might opt for not having the center channel.
Very rarely I watch away from MLP. The theater is mostly for myself.
That is one and secondly the absence of 520c in the market is kind of forced situation for the phantom at this moment.
Also, unfortunately 520c is the only center in 5 series and that is also underwhelming when compared to the mains.
But anyways, I will see how it goes, and by the time the 520c should start popping up.
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post #18657 of 22697 Old 05-04-2016, 07:05 PM
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Very rarely I watch away from MLP. The theater is mostly for myself.
That is one and secondly the absence of 520c in the market is kind of forced situation for the phantom at this moment.
Also, unfortunately 520c is the only center in 5 series and that is also underwhelming when compared to the mains.
But anyways, I will see how it goes, and by the time the 520c should start popping up.
I am surprised that the 590's don't have a matching center.
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post #18658 of 22697 Old 05-04-2016, 07:33 PM
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I am surprised that the 590's don't have a matching center.
Yes. Exactly. The only center in that lineup is the tiny 520c..
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post #18659 of 22697 Old 05-04-2016, 08:37 PM
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I suspect you mean -15 on the master volume scale. A MV setting of zero, i.e. "reference", is by definition 105dB. So -15 would be 90dB. So is this what you mean by "measure at that level"?

I think the links Matt provided are evidence that the measurement level is not critical, but if you listen at -15 and want to measure at the same level, then that suggests measuring at 90dB.
Yes. When measuring my basement system, I was measuring with the MV at 0db or 105db which I thought was the norm since my noise floor is around 45db. My understanding is you want to measure 60db above the noise floor.

I questioned the reasoning behind measuring 60db above the noise floor of 45db which is 105db in my case, but blindly measured at that level because I thought it was generally accepted as best practice. I don't listen at 60db above the noise floor, I listen at -15 which like you said is 90db. So, should i be measuring at the volume i listen at and treat the room based on the ringing that exists at my preferred volume? I would think it would take longer for 105db to decay compared to my preferred 90db. I hope I'm making sense. :-)
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post #18660 of 22697 Old 05-04-2016, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
Yes. When measuring my basement system, I was measuring with the MV at 0db or 105db which I thought was the norm since my noise floor is around 45db. My understanding is you want to measure 60db above the noise floor.

I questioned the reasoning behind measuring 60db above the noise floor of 45db which is 105db in my case, but blindly measured at that level because I thought it was generally accepted as best practice. I don't listen at 60db above the noise floor, I listen at -15 which like you said is 90db. So, should i be measuring at the volume i listen at and treat the room based on the ringing that exists at my preferred volume? I would think it would take longer for 105db to decay compared to my preferred 90db. I hope I'm making sense. :-)
Let me summarize what I think:

- The measurement level is not critical. Read the posts by JohnM again.

- Nowhere that I am aware of is there a recommendation to measure 60dB above the noise floor. I believe the recommendation in the guide is 40dB above a typical noise floor, which is 45-50dB, which would make the recommendation for the measurement level to be 85-90dB (but not critical--see point 1)

- As stated in my previous post, if you want to measure close to your average listening level of -15, that suggests a measurement level of 90dB. Matching the measurement level with your typical listening level is most important for the distortion graph, IMO, since distortion increases with output level.

- For the waterfall, the most important part of the graph is the first 20dB below the measurement peak. Set the measurement level such that the first 20dB is clearly visible before disappearing into the noise floor. For the typical 45-50dB noise floor, this suggests a measurement of at least 75-80dB for the waterfall.

Having said all that, the first thing I do during a REW measurement session is adjust the level to 90dB so that my measurements are consistent from one session to the next. Consistency is important to me, whether it is 80, 85, or 90dB

Last edited by AustinJerry; 05-05-2016 at 06:13 AM.
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