Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 625 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #18721 of 23602 Old 05-16-2016, 04:27 PM
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I ran my first test run. I think it was just the front left Lol. I'm confused on how to set the "Limits". I'm also not sure where to go from here? Do I run all speakers individually, then run subs?
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post #18722 of 23602 Old 05-16-2016, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Soupy1970 View Post
I ran my first test run. I think it was just the front left Lol. I'm confused on how to set the "Limits". I'm also not sure where to go from here? Do I run all speakers individually, then run subs?
Have you reviewed the guide?
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post #18723 of 23602 Old 05-16-2016, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by David Varner View Post
I am having an issue with my readings being very inconsistent and my headroom changing drastically between measurements. I notice right after I do SPL meter calibration and then take a reading everything seems OK and then the next reading the headroom goes up to like 32db when it was at 23db for the reading right after SPL calibration. I have a feeling it has something to do with the ASIO drivers. I am also experiencing the popping and clicking.(when I change outputs it goes away) ASIO is set to always resample 44.1-48 in ASIO control panel. I'm using UMM-6 and HDMI.

Basically my only resolution ATM is to SPL calibrate before every measurement. Any help would be greatly appreciated here is a graph the measurements that are "kind of flat" are right after SPL calibration and the measurements that dip below 300hz are the second measurement without SPL calibrating the mic right before.
The fact that you can SPL calibrate suggests that you are not using a sensitivity parameter, which should be automatically setting the level for the mic. If REW was loading the sensitivity parameter, you would get a message stating "calibration for this mic is not required". Why are you not using a sensitivity parameter?
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post #18724 of 23602 Old 05-16-2016, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Have you reviewed the guide?
Your guide is how I reached the point I am at now. A lot of it went over my head but it was straight forward enough for me to invest the $100 in the Mic and give it a try. Thanks a bunch for that!. I'm going to re-read it until it all sinks in eventually.

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post #18725 of 23602 Old 05-16-2016, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The fact that you can SPL calibrate suggests that you are not using a sensitivity parameter, which should be automatically setting the level for the mic. If REW was loading the sensitivity parameter, you would get a message stating "calibration for this mic is not required". Why are you not using a sensitivity parameter?
I am using "narrow_band_response_90_degree.frd" that came on the USB from Cross Spectrum. The sensitivity parameter is in that file correct? The UMM-6 I thought has to SPL calibrated no matter what. That is why I also bought a SPL meter.
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post #18726 of 23602 Old 05-16-2016, 05:38 PM
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also see that there is another directory on the USB that says REW let me try the file in there. it is a .txt file not an .frd file.

That helped a lot but now I am having the opposite issue. With my first measurement I am getting A big dip below 300hz and every measurement after that seems normal. Hmmmm better than before I just have to ignore the first measurement. Is this normal?

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post #18727 of 23602 Old 05-16-2016, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Varner View Post
I am using "narrow_band_response_90_degree.frd" that came on the USB from Cross Spectrum. The sensitivity parameter is in that file correct? The UMM-6 I thought has to SPL calibrated no matter what. That is why I also bought a SPL meter.
The files from CSL do NOT have a sensitivity factor in them. You must download the file from the vendor web site. The REW guide linked in my sig has an entire section on this topic--please read it.
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post #18728 of 23602 Old 05-16-2016, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The files from CSL do NOT have a sensitivity factor in them. You must download the file from the vendor web site. The REW guide linked in my sig has an entire section on this topic--please read it.
FYI, my UMIK-1 from CSL that just arrived had the sensitivity factor in the files already. I actually went to load the sensitivity per Guide, but it was not needed.

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post #18729 of 23602 Old 05-16-2016, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Soupy1970 View Post
FYI, my UMIK-1 from CSL that just arrived had the sensitivity factor in the files already. I actually went to load the sensitivity per Guide, but it was not needed.
It is very easy to open the file in a text editor to verify whether it contains the sensitivity factor. If it is there, fine, if not, the guide explains where to get it and how to load it.
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post #18730 of 23602 Old 05-16-2016, 08:48 PM
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When Soupy reported that his CSL calibration files included the sensitivity factor, I became curious and sent a note to Herb Singleton. Herb's response:

"We started including the *factory* sensitivity numbers for UMM-6 and UMIK-1 mics back around January/February because we were getting so many questions about people dealing with REW errors when using our calibration files. We don’t support or endorse those values, but they are there."

This is a nice enhancement to a good product--all the more reason to consider CSL as a place to buy your mic's. I'll update the Guide with this new information.
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post #18731 of 23602 Old 05-16-2016, 11:58 PM
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Ok, per page 95 of the guide, I did 12 sweeps. Can someone please take a look at the saved files and tell me if I'm on the right track. The first file 1 thru 6 is the full range sweeps with 1/6 smoothing. 7 thru 12 are the 300Hz sweeps with no smoothing. I did make a mistake on sweeps 11 & 12 and picked the Center plus subs in preference rather than let the AVR's bass management do it's thing. Thanks!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0qqifmwiuh...%206.mdat?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/54syjqpt6b...2012.mdat?dl=0

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post #18732 of 23602 Old 05-17-2016, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
It is very easy to open the file in a text editor to verify whether it contains the sensitivity factor. If it is there, fine, if not, the guide explains where to get it and how to load it.
If I'm reading it right its on page 57 - 59 of the guide. Thanks for that, I needed to do the same myself for my mic before a big GTG in Chicago this weekend lol....

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post #18733 of 23602 Old 05-17-2016, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The files from CSL do NOT have a sensitivity factor in them. You must download the file from the vendor web site. The REW guide linked in my sig has an entire section on this topic--please read it.
I read the set-up guide thoroughly and thank you very much for putting the time and effort into that it got me this far.

I checked my calibration file the sens factor is included. But I am still having issues where it seems like the test tones that REW is putting out are not putting out the lower frequencies.(I can hear it as well) Every 2nd or 3rd measurement I am getting a huge fall-off below 200hz. I don't see how I can achieve accurate measurements with this happening.

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post #18734 of 23602 Old 05-17-2016, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by David Varner View Post
I read the set-up guide thoroughly and thank you very much for putting the time and effort into that it got me this far.

I checked my calibration file the sens factor is included. But I am still having issues where it seems like the test tones that REW is putting out are not putting out the lower frequencies.(I can hear it as well) Every 2nd or 3rd measurement I am getting a huge dip below 200-300hz. I don't see how I can achieve accurate measurements with this happening.
REW is not the root cause, or all of us would be seeing this behavior.
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post #18735 of 23602 Old 05-17-2016, 09:50 AM
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OK just making sure I will try some other things and will report back. Atlest, I know to look else where.
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post #18736 of 23602 Old 05-17-2016, 11:38 AM
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We don’t support or endorse those values, but they are there."
So are they accurate, or do they just suppress the error message?
Michael

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #18737 of 23602 Old 05-17-2016, 12:54 PM
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So are they accurate, or do they just suppress the error message?
Michael
Not sure what your question means, but let me take a stab at it. Since Herb has the mic's serial number, he is logging onto the vendor's web site, entering the serial number, and downloading the vendor's calibration file, which includes the sensitivity parameter. He is then transferring the parameter to the custom calibration files he develops, which are then included with the mics we purchase from CSL. So, since CSL is using the same file we would use if we were downloading it ourselves, I think it is safe to assume that both ways produce identical results.

Does that answer the question?
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post #18738 of 23602 Old 05-17-2016, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Soupy1970 View Post
Ok, per page 95 of the guide, I did 12 sweeps. Can someone please take a look at the saved files and tell me if I'm on the right track. The first file 1 thru 6 is the full range sweeps with 1/6 smoothing. 7 thru 12 are the 300Hz sweeps with no smoothing. I did make a mistake on sweeps 11 & 12 and picked the Center plus subs in preference rather than let the AVR's bass management do it's thing. Thanks!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0qqifmwiuh...%206.mdat?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/54syjqpt6b...2012.mdat?dl=0
Anyone? Please. I'm a little over my head on what I'm doing here. Getting to the measurements following the guide was easy, but now I'm lost. Thanks

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post #18739 of 23602 Old 05-18-2016, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Soupy1970 View Post
Ok, per page 95 of the guide, I did 12 sweeps. Can someone please take a look at the saved files and tell me if I'm on the right track. The first file 1 thru 6 is the full range sweeps with 1/6 smoothing. 7 thru 12 are the 300Hz sweeps with no smoothing. I did make a mistake on sweeps 11 & 12 and picked the Center plus subs in preference rather than let the AVR's bass management do it's thing. Thanks!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0qqifmwiuh...%206.mdat?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/54syjqpt6b...2012.mdat?dl=0
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Anyone? Please. I'm a little over my head on what I'm doing here. Getting to the measurements following the guide was easy, but now I'm lost. Thanks
OK, I'm not as knowledgeable as some of the guys here, but I took a look at the MDATs you posted...here are my first impressions:

On the full range sweeps, it looks like Audyssey is doing a fairly decent job of flattening the response on your mains/CC besides one large null at 50hz that seems to show up on your left speaker only.

The Subs 1+2 measurements are weird...it seems your response got worse after Audyssey. And look at the waterfall/spectrogram for that measurement (!), something definitely went wrong during that sweep.

The Left+Right+Subs (actually should be L+Subs or R+Subs ) and Center+Subs measurements also look worse post-Audyssey....Audyssey seems to be creating a large dip in the response between 60-85hz.



A couple questions:

What speakers do you have?
What version of Audyssey are you using?
How many mic positions did you use?
Are you using a tripod or mic boom for the Audyssey mic?
What measurement microphone are you using?
Where are your crossovers set?
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post #18740 of 23602 Old 05-18-2016, 08:17 AM
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OK, I'm not as knowledgeable as some of the guys here, but I took a look at the MDATs you posted...here are my first impressions:

On the full range sweeps, it looks like Audyssey is doing a fairly decent job of flattening the response on your mains/CC besides one large null at 50hz that seems to show up on your left speaker only.

The Subs 1+2 measurements are weird...it seems your response got worse after Audyssey. And look at the waterfall/spectrogram for that measurement (!), something definitely went wrong during that sweep.

The Left+Right+Subs (actually should be L+Subs or R+Subs ) and Center+Subs measurements also look worse post-Audyssey....Audyssey seems to be creating a large dip in the response between 60-85hz.



A couple questions:

What speakers do you have?
What version of Audyssey are you using?
How many mic positions did you use?
Are you using a tripod of mic boom for the Audyssey mic?
What measurement microphone are you using?
Where are your crossovers set?
Thanks!

My setup is in my signature. I have the Denon X6200 with Audyssey XT32. For Audyssey I run the full 8 positions using a Mic boom positioned against the back rest of seat. For the REW sweeps I had to sit the Mic between the back rest. (I'll include pics of room with MIC in position). Crossover is 80. The left wall is plaster, and the rest is drywall. Maybe that is effecting left speaker. I run my Subs nearfield as end tables.

Room is 13' 3" W X 20' L X 7' 3" H
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post #18741 of 23602 Old 05-18-2016, 08:25 AM
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^ When I run Audyssey the first position is in the middle but a little higher then the mic for REW is sitting. The 2nd and 3rd run the Audyssey mic on boom is resting against the top of Backrest. I keep the same height for all 8 sweeps.

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post #18742 of 23602 Old 05-18-2016, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soupy1970 View Post
Thanks Jerry!

My setup is in my signature. I have the Denon X6200 with Audyssey XT32. For Audyssey I run the full 8 positions using a Mic boom positioned against the back rest of seat. For the REW sweeps I had to sit the Mic between the back rest. (I'll include pics of room with MIC in position). Crossover is 80. The left wall is plaster, and the rest is drywall. Maybe that is effecting left speaker. I run my Subs nearfield as end tables.

Room is 13' 3" W X 20' L X 7' 3" H
Hmmm...well, XT32 should be doing a better job than I'm seeing in your Audyssey On measurements. Could be something wrong with your Audyssey technique.

You say "Mic boom positioned against the back rest of seat", not sure what that means, but if the boom is actually touching the seat, that is a no-no. I do not see a mic boom in your pics, I see a very small tripod for your measurement mic that is resting on the seating...another no-no.

You also said "For the REW sweeps I had to sit the Mic between the back rest"...why? You should be using the mic boom and positioning the measurement mic exactly where you head would be while listening. I'm thinking maybe you don't know what a mic boom is....it looks like this.

Are you keeping all 8 positions tightly clustered or are they spread out?

Have you reviewed the Audyssey 101 and FAQ (linked in my sig)?

I notice you have leather (or "leather-like") seating. During Audyssey calibration, I would highly recommend you cover those seats with something thick like a blanket or towels. This can reduce unwanted reflections off of the leather that can screw up your calibration.



And, just because I'm curious, why are you using horizontal speakers for surrounds and why are your subs facing opposite directions?


Oh, and I'm not Jerry.
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post #18743 of 23602 Old 05-18-2016, 08:37 AM
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One other comment....have you tried one sub up front and one nearfield (or one in the back of the room)? You will get more of the smoothing benefit from duals if you spread them out more.
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post #18744 of 23602 Old 05-18-2016, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Soupy1970 View Post
Anyone? Please. I'm a little over my head on what I'm doing here. Getting to the measurements following the guide was easy, but now I'm lost. Thanks
Observations:

- You seem to have a good grasp of how to take and present the REW measurements, so good job there.
- In measurements 1-6, Audyssey is doing a good job in smoothing out the pre-Audyssey response curves, which show some pretty big variations.
- The measurement level for the left channel is 6-7dB higher--what happened there?
- Bass ringing not too bad--a minor issue in the 40-50Hz range showing on the left channel.
- The measurement showing subs 1+2, Audyssey on, is not very good at all, showing wild 30dB swings. What version of Audyssey are you using, XT32? The bass response needs major work.
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post #18745 of 23602 Old 05-18-2016, 08:48 AM
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Thanks Alan! I'll include a picture of Audyssey mic position. It only touches in the 2nd, and 3rd Audyssey sweep. I actually did cover the seat with blankets. If you look at the picture of the back of my room you will see there is no place for Subs. I could run one up front though. As for the surrounds, i just wanted to be timber matched. That Center is full range and sounds better than the Klipsch RB-61 bookshelf I had before. I can run Audyssey again tonight. Thanks again for help.
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post #18746 of 23602 Old 05-18-2016, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Observations:

- You seem to have a good grasp of how to take and present the REW measurements, so good job there.
- In measurements 1-6, Audyssey is doing a good job in smoothing out the pre-Audyssey response curves, which show some pretty big variations.
- The measurement level for the left channel is 6-7dB higher--what happened there?
- Bass ringing not too bad--a minor issue in the 40-50Hz range showing on the left channel.
- The measurement showing subs 1+2, Audyssey on, is not very good at all, showing wild 30dB swings. What version of Audyssey are you using, XT32? The bass response needs major work.
Thanks for chiming in. Yes XT32. I'm off to work now, but late tonight I will run Audyssey again, then run new sweeps in REW. One thing that I did during those first sweeps was change the Mic volume in Windows because on the 2nd or 3rd sweep my headroom dropped. Not sure if that did anything to mess up the readings.

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post #18747 of 23602 Old 05-18-2016, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Soupy1970 View Post
Thanks for chiming in. Yes XT32. I'm off to work now, but late tonight I will run Audyssey again, then run new sweeps in REW. One thing that I did during those first sweeps was change the Mic volume in Windows because on the 2nd or 3rd sweep my headroom dropped. Not sure if that did anything to mess up the readings.
I would not worry about the mic measurement level--it was only a minor observation. What is far more problematic is the choppy bass response. You should use REW to find better placements for the subs in an attempt to smooth out the response.
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post #18748 of 23602 Old 05-18-2016, 09:01 AM
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What would be the best way to find the best Sub position. Should I disconnect one sub, and place the other in the seat and take measurements in all availble positions?
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post #18749 of 23602 Old 05-18-2016, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I would not worry about the mic measurement level--it was only a minor observation. What is far more problematic is the choppy bass response. You should use REW to find better placements for the subs in an attempt to smooth out the response.
Jerry,

If you look at the pre-Audyssey subs only sweep you can easily tell that something went wrong with the post-Audyssey measurement...especially if you look at the spectrogram.


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Originally Posted by Soupy1970 View Post
Thanks Alan! I'll include a picture of Audyssey mic position. It only touches in the 2nd, and 3rd Audyssey sweep. I actually did cover the seat with blankets. If you look at the picture of the back of my room you will see there is no place for Subs. I could run one up front though. As for the surrounds, i just wanted to be timber matched. That Center is full range and sounds better than the Klipsch RB-61 bookshelf I had before. I can run Audyssey again tonight. Thanks again for help.
Why is the mic touching anything besides the boom?? Is your boom wore out or something?

Most horizontal speakers are a compromise (to fit under or over a display), I wouldn't recommend them for surrounds...but to each their own.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Soupy1970 View Post
What would be the best way to find the best Sub position. Should I disconnect one sub, and place the other in the seat and take measurements in all availble positions?
I took a single sub and moved it to every available position in the room (furniture sliders are your best friend during this) and took sweeps. I then placed the two subs in the two spots that measured best. Of course, there will still be more tweaking after that, but it will get you in the ballpark.
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post #18750 of 23602 Old 05-18-2016, 09:50 AM
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I'm just wanting to confirm about calibrating to reference. Say I do a -20db sweep in REW, and it hypothetically showed 85db flat on the graph from 20hz-20khz. Would that be valid? (Ignoring the dolby 85db vs 83db debacle thread)

I'm worried about accuracy calibrating with pink noise as getting subs dialed in with band limited signal seems like it could be prone to error. It would be easier for me to use the graph to integrate subs with the speakers so the combined system was roughly showing 85db on a -20db sweep. If that's accurate for the low end then maybe I could try afterwards doing a bass managed full range pink noise calibration.
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