Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 637 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #19081 of 20105 Old 07-21-2016, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Certainly! Since I do listen to quite a bit of music on my HT system, I will do those measurements just so I know how well my system is/isn't performing in Stereo mode...the more information the better, right?
i guess the sub's response is included when one front speaker is measured, so perhaps L + Sw is unnecessary. Does that make sense?
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post #19082 of 20105 Old 07-21-2016, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by bmcn View Post
Understood. Would you measure L + Sw and R + Sw in a 2.1 system used for music?
There are no hard and fast rules about which measurement to use. Different measurements are like different tools--you select the best one to get the job done. In the case of a 2.1 system, you would measure left+subs and right+subs to assess how the subs and mains integrate, and the measurement would typically be 15-20Khz. Measuring left+right+subs all at the same time would be more useful to assess the combined bass response in the 15-300Hz range, especially for the waterfall.

So, use whatever measurement you think is appropriate, and make conclusions based on what the measurement is showing.
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post #19083 of 20105 Old 07-21-2016, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by bmcn View Post
i guess the sub's response is included when one front speaker is measured, so perhaps L + Sw is unnecessary. Does that make sense?
You are misunderstanding what we mean by left+sub. This means outputting a signal to HDMI1, which by virtue of bass management, routes signals below the crossover to the sub. It does NOT mean outputting the signal to both HDMI1 and HDMI4 at the same time--that would be wrong.
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post #19084 of 20105 Old 07-21-2016, 11:17 AM
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Not J, but Java does not provide the full 7.1 capabilities that ASIO provides.
Java does. REW doesn't utilize it...
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post #19085 of 20105 Old 07-21-2016, 12:39 PM
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Just ordered the UMIK-1 today and will soon be learning and using REW when it comes! Excited to see what my recently finished living room home theater, and specifically my subwoofer frequency response graph looks like. Questions to follow, I'm sure!

My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
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post #19086 of 20105 Old 07-21-2016, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
^^^

Before I comment at all, you need to re-post the FR graphs with 5dB steps on the left hand side and set the Axis to Logarithmic not Linear.

One question though; are these with or without EQ?

Hi

Hopefully this is better. The first pic is measured through Ch4 and the second two pics through Ch1.

Thanks very much
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post #19087 of 20105 Old 07-21-2016, 01:00 PM
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What exactly is measured by those graphs?
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post #19088 of 20105 Old 07-21-2016, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indus1 View Post
Hi

Hopefully this is better. The first pic is measured through Ch4 and the second two pics through Ch1.

Thanks very much
Waterfall is still set to linear and all graphs should be 15-300hz.

As you can clearly see, your subwoofer is not in the best position with that huge dip at 58hz. I'd say you still have some work to do as far as sub placement is concerned before we can go any further.
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post #19089 of 20105 Old 07-21-2016, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Just ordered the UMIK-1 today and will soon be learning and using REW when it comes! Excited to see what my recently finished living room home theater, and specifically my subwoofer frequency response graph looks like. Questions to follow, I'm sure!
Well, I don't know whether to offer congratulations or condolences

It's a love-hate thing for me.

The Love: I get to see problems and fix them! Yay!
The Hate: I get to see problems and fix them. Boo!

On the whole it's quite an exciting and fun thing to do. I should probably get out more.
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post #19090 of 20105 Old 07-21-2016, 01:37 PM
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Haha something tells me although it sounds good to my ears it's gonna look like the Rockies lol

My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
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post #19091 of 20105 Old 07-21-2016, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Waterfall is still set to linear and all graphs should be 15-300hz.

As you can clearly see, your subwoofer is not in the best position with that huge dip at 58hz. I'd say you still have some work to do as far as sub placement is concerned before we can go any further.

Hi Alan

Is this better?

Anyway, the REW room sim suggests that the sub is in the optimal position. In addition my sub is huge (by UK standards), it's a XTZ 3x12 sub and so placement is limited anyway.
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post #19092 of 20105 Old 07-21-2016, 02:22 PM
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I'm afraid that measurement is pretty bad, it is a dip that is both broad and deep. Your response is poor even if you mentally elide that dip (as the response above the dip is markedly above the response below it).

I suggest you take measurements beyond a single point as a next step. The sharp dip will likely disappear and you will have a length based dip to contend with given your setup. Ultimately, if you want to fix this, you will need to choose between one big sub and more smaller ones. This is just the way it is.

What are you aiming to achieve with this exercise? Are you open to changing your sub?
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post #19093 of 20105 Old 07-21-2016, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post
Java does. REW doesn't utilize it...
REW offers all the mixers and lines that JavaSound makes available. With some soundcards the 7.1 outputs are made available as 4 stereo pairs. With others they aren't. Which you end up with is outside of REW's control.
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post #19094 of 20105 Old 07-21-2016, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by indus1 View Post
Anyway, the REW room sim suggests that the sub is in the optimal position. In addition my sub is huge (by UK standards), it's a XTZ 3x12 sub and so placement is limited anyway.
That XTZ is large by just about anyone's standard. You might want to try the trick of putting the sub in the MLP and trying the mic in various locations to find the best place for the sub.
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post #19095 of 20105 Old 07-21-2016, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indus1 View Post
Hi Alan

Is this better?

Anyway, the REW room sim suggests that the sub is in the optimal position. In addition my sub is huge (by UK standards), it's a XTZ 3x12 sub and so placement is limited anyway.
Almost there...WF is still set to Linear.

3ll3d00d is much smarter than me...I'd listen to what he says.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
I'm afraid that measurement is pretty bad, it is a dip that is both broad and deep. Your response is poor even if you mentally elide that dip (as the response above the dip is markedly above the response below it).

I suggest you take measurements beyond a single point as a next step. The sharp dip will likely disappear and you will have a length based dip to contend with given your setup. Ultimately, if you want to fix this, you will need to choose between one big sub and more smaller ones. This is just the way it is.

What are you aiming to achieve with this exercise? Are you open to changing your sub?
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post #19096 of 20105 Old 07-21-2016, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
That XTZ is large by just about anyone's standard. You might want to try the trick of putting the sub in the MLP and trying the mic in various locations to find the best place for the sub.
I looked it up... It isn't going to fit on the mlp!!
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post #19097 of 20105 Old 07-21-2016, 07:17 PM
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I looked it up... It isn't going to fit on the mlp!!
Well then the solution is obviously to utilize near-field techniques. IOW, make it the MLP and sit on it!
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post #19098 of 20105 Old 07-21-2016, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indus1 View Post
Hi Alan

Is this better?

Anyway, the REW room sim suggests that the sub is in the optimal position. In addition my sub is huge (by UK standards), it's a XTZ 3x12 sub and so placement is limited anyway.
A note about the presentation of your waterfall. It is important that the lower limit of the waterfall be set properly. As a convention in this thread, we normally set the lower limit of the graph to be 40dB from the peak measurement level. A simple way to determine the correct lower limit value is to generate the Spectrogram. On the right side of the spectrogram is a bar that shows the peak measurement level:



Subtract the peak level, and use the resulting value to set the lower limit for the waterfall. An, as Alan has pointed out, ALL REW measurements should use the log scale for the horizontal axis, not the linear scale. To change scales, click the "Freq. Axis" tool at the top of the screen:




Here is a waterfall with linear scale:



Here is the same waterfall with a log scale:




Note how much easier it is to analyze the 15-100Hz range when the graph is using the log scale.

As for the measurement level, you should follow the REW guideline to assess the noise floor in your room. A typical listening room will have a noise floor in the 45-50dB range. Once you know the noise floor, follow the Guide instructions on how to set your measurement output level (page 65, step1 1). The level should be typically 40dB above the noise floor, or 85-90dB.

And finally, to assess whether you are seeing bass ringing or not, look at the first 20dB from the top, down to 75dB in this example. Look at the shape of the "ridges" in the waterfall. It is desirable that the ridges be a uniform distance apart, starting at the top of the graph, and extending down through the -20dB level. In the example above, the area 45-300Hz shows good ridge uniformity, signifying low bass resonance. However, at 35Hz, there is an area of tightly-spaced ridges extending from the top all the way to the bottom of the graph. This is an area that demonstrates bass ringing, and should be the focus of attention if bass resonance reduction is the objective. Below 35Hz, the ringing is once again under control.

Now back to the measurements you posted. The waterfall, as posted, is useless to assess bass ringing. Please consider posting it correctly. The sub only measurement is not good at all. A -40dB dip at 58Hz must be audible, and is at a frequency that is quite important. We understand you have a really nice monster sub that can't be moved around, but if that is the case, then learn to live with bass response that is far from optimal. As someone mentioned, in hindsight several smaller, less expensive subs probably would have achieved a better response. And finally, you don't comment on whether the graphs were produced with or without room correction. Automated EQ may provide some relief.
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post #19099 of 20105 Old 07-21-2016, 11:03 PM
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Thanks to everybody for their kind input. A couple of points.

1) Yes there is EQ, I'm running the default curve on the dirac 88a.

2) Sorry about the log scale, I was toggling the freq axis button but couldn't see where it actually told me which scale it was. I'll look again or learn to recognise the difference.

3) I'm suprised by this massive dip at circa 50hz. It's not the problem that in my mind I was trying to fix. So its either a problem I just haven't realised existed because I know no better or I've messed up the measurement somehow.

To my ears the issue I was trying to fix is a degree of bass overhang, resonance, ringing etc (I never quite know the right term)

Some frequencies in a movie soundtrack will build up to the point where I can feel it on my ear drums as a massive pressure wave in the room which can take (what feels like) ages to dissipate.

So what I was expecting to find with REW was some kind of massive peak and resonance somewhere.

Could it be that I've messed something up in the measurements and am not actually measuring what I am supposed to be?

Thanks again to everybody for their help.
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post #19100 of 20105 Old 07-22-2016, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnPM View Post
REW offers all the mixers and lines that JavaSound makes available. With some soundcards the 7.1 outputs are made available as 4 stereo pairs. With others they aren't. Which you end up with is outside of REW's control.
It is true that the simplest global query for all lines is not returning all lines and you need some guessing to find all the capabilities, but lines for 8 channel output (not stereo pairs trickery) are definitely there and working. I've been able to output sound from my Macbook through HDMI port, a single javax.sound line with 8 channels - chirping all them in sequence. The chirps come from appropriate channels in the end. I haven't tested the code on Windows but I don't think it will be significantly different story there. If you need it I can share the code for querying Mixers and composing an AudioFormat (there is main 'magic' here) that will work for opening a multichannel line from Java.
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post #19101 of 20105 Old 07-22-2016, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post
It is true that the simplest global query for all lines is not returning all lines and you need some guessing to find all the capabilities, but lines for 8 channel output (not stereo pairs trickery) are definitely there and working. I've been able to output sound from my Macbook through HDMI port, a single javax.sound line with 8 channels - chirping all them in sequence. The chirps come from appropriate channels in the end. I haven't tested the code on Windows but I don't think it will be significantly different story there. If you need it I can share the code for querying Mixers and composing an AudioFormat (there is main 'magic' here) that will work for opening a multichannel line from Java.
The OS X and Windows JavaSound implementations are very different. The OS X implementation is a lot more recent of course, and would have needed to be done pretty much from the ground up since Apple's attempt left a great deal out. With a multichannel soundcard the OS X implementation offers a variety of channel formats (provided the card is appropriately configured in Audio Midi setup). Looking at a way of exposing that to the user is on my todo list for OS X. Windows, unfortunately, offers only mono and stereo even when the soundcard has been configured for multichannel. The various formats offered in either case can be seen from REW using the 'Generate soundcard debug file' option on the soundcard preferences.
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post #19102 of 20105 Old 07-22-2016, 04:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indus1 View Post
So what I was expecting to find with REW was some kind of massive peak and resonance somewhere.

Could it be that I've messed something up in the measurements and am not actually measuring what I am supposed to be?
if that graph is what you're hearing then it probably sounds pretty unbalanced.

If I were you I'd take measurements at different positions both with and without your EQ on so you can understand the behaviour of your current setup. This means

- take 3 measurements across the listening area (move mic across the width of the seat but stick to the same height and distance from rear wall), one of these should be the position you've used above, 0.5-1m either side is good
- take a measurement with the mic moved forward (towards the screen) by 0.5-1.0m
- take a measurement with the mic raised up say 50cm from the listening position

repeat for SW and a main channel (you can choose, many people use C for a film setup) + SW

show the with and without eq traces
show the layout of your room and mark on the positions of the mic/subs

this will give you the data you need to decide what to do next
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post #19103 of 20105 Old 07-22-2016, 06:36 AM
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^ And to add to Matt's excellent recommendations, when you are finished with the measurements, consider making the REW MDAT file available here for download. Many of us use Dropbox.com for sharing measurement files. This will allow us to view the measurements in the format we are accustomed to.
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post #19104 of 20105 Old 07-22-2016, 07:19 AM
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New REW user.

My pre-pro is a Yamaha CX-A5000 with YPAO and running a 7.1 system. All of my speakers are Paradigm and my current sub is a Rhythmik F15HP. Have a Seaton F18+ on order so will be doing this twice - with the Rhythmik and later with the Seaton.

Purchased a UMIK last week and downloaded REW yesterday running on a MacBook Air so will be connecting via HDMI to my pre-pro. I have downloaded the 90 degree calibration file for the UMIK but not sure if I need to use this any longer.

Based on my review of the REW documentation, I want to verify the process as I understand it.

1. Run REW with the current EQ disabled on the Yamaha.
2. Update sub settings on Yamaha based on results of REW.
3. Run YPAO to set the distances for all speakers including Sub (leave the calculated sub distance alone).
4. Run REW with and without the Yamaha EQ disabled for comparison.

Any comments welcome. Thanks in advance for your help.

Nick
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post #19105 of 20105 Old 07-22-2016, 08:00 AM
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So, I tried running REW with HDMI audio, and I *think* it worked - BUT - while I was connected to my processor, the video kept blanking out and refreshing every 5-10 seconds or so. Have MacBookPro connected via the Thunderbolt Adapter to HDMI (it's 4+ years old and doesn't have HMDI built in) to processor, to TV. I sure don't need video, and I may not be understanding the processor's handling of the connection. When I set up the input, I can select HDMI audio, but it seems to force me to select HDMI video along with it. The computer itself does not refresh, just the TV. I know - just turn off the TV! But then nothing works, REW seems to indicate the system is not ready for measuring if I do that. The HDMI cable I'm using is fine, I know that.

Has anybody else encountered a similar situation? Seems really odd, and probably rooted in my misunderstanding something with the processor. My main concern though is that if the video is dropping out, is audio dropping out during the sweeps as well? I don't see anything in the graphs that indicate this, but can't help but wonder if things are amiss with the audio as a result of this funky connection.....
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post #19106 of 20105 Old 07-22-2016, 05:25 PM
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Quick check - is everyone good with REW on Windows 10 at this point? I'm about to pull the trigger on the Windows 10 upgrade on the Windows 7 notebook that I've been using REW on. Umik-1 mic and HDMI output with the ASIO driver.

I remember seeing there were some issues.
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post #19107 of 20105 Old 07-22-2016, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foundation42 View Post
Quick check - is everyone good with REW on Windows 10 at this point? I'm about to pull the trigger on the Windows 10 upgrade on the Windows 7 notebook that I've been using REW on. Umik-1 mic and HDMI output with the ASIO driver.

I remember seeing there were some issues.
No issues from my perspective.
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post #19108 of 20105 Old 07-22-2016, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foundation42 View Post
Quick check - is everyone good with REW on Windows 10 at this point? I'm about to pull the trigger on the Windows 10 upgrade on the Windows 7 notebook that I've been using REW on. Umik-1 mic and HDMI output with the ASIO driver.

I remember seeing there were some issues.


I'd like to know as well as I'll be using Windows 10 in a few days for REW

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post #19109 of 20105 Old 07-22-2016, 06:04 PM
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No issues on my HP Envy notebook which I upgraded from Win8.1 to Win10.
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post #19110 of 20105 Old 07-22-2016, 06:56 PM
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These are DIRAC measurements of my left and right speakers that I use at my computer. Positioned on table few inches from front wall, 4" acoustic panels behind them, 4" panels on side reflections and some fluffy blanket on table for table reflection.
Above left speaker there is a slanted ceiling, really close, about 2.3 feet from my head (coincidentally that is 1/4 wavelength of 130 Hz, if thats important). Its worthwhile to note that leftmost acoustic panel blocks corner and part of a ceiling slant since its lying on a table horizontally. On right side of room there is a closet with panel in front of it, so corner is esentially blocked off.

I am mostly curious about issue that is going on on left speaker, starting with dip at 130 Hz and looking conspicuously like a sine wave. The problem is, when I play 130 Hz tone, I hear it much louder in left ear then in right one. If i move head a half-feet, feet to the right its same in both ears and more right again gets a bit messy. Moving head to the left makes sound equally bloated in both ears. So the whole front left corner is basically where bass builds up.

Dirac calibration mostly helped. But if bass plays at those frequencies I still hear difference between ears. Moving table is not an option. I can fiddle somewhat with speaker position.
I tried adding some more acoustic panels in corners where bass builds up, it seems to have helped a little but i have to confirm with measurements tomorrow. What are my options here? Is more bass traps in those corners right way to go?
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