Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 640 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #19171 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 06:13 AM
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I'm doing my REW for the first time today. Trying to get everything setup on my PC and having some issues. I'm an IT guy so usually this stuff would be a breeze, but I'm following the REW 101 Manual and when I plug my Windows 10 PC into the VSX-44 AVR, i get a picture on my TV, but no sound. If I plug the PC into the TV directly via the same HDMI cord, I get picture and sound out of the TV speakers. Am I missing something simple? If I turn the volume up - there is a rapid steady clicking sound coming out of the subwoofer.

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post #19172 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The sub response actually looks pretty good.
the mid bass looks pretty bad to me, low end looks ok
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post #19173 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by indus1 View Post
Hi Jerry

I thought somebody had asked me for centre channel only. Perhaps I misunderstood. That's just one graph though. There are four graphs of ch3 measured in the convential way ie centre +sw.

Anyway, if the sub response is reasonable then what's going on with the centre speaker + SW interaction? What can I do to figure out what the issue is?

Thanks
In post 19163, you show four graphs. Do the HDMI3 measurements include the sub as well?

OK, I am going to review how to properly label the measurements one more time. Hopefully it will stick this time.

There is an area associated with each measurement where you can enter description text, as in this example:




The text you enter will appear in the legend, as shown here:



And finally, when you capture the screen and select "Include Legend", the description is now clearly shown in your screen capture, as shown here:




Is this more clear now?
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post #19174 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 07:18 AM
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And what is happening here?

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post #19175 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
I'm doing my REW for the first time today. Trying to get everything setup on my PC and having some issues. I'm an IT guy so usually this stuff would be a breeze, but I'm following the REW 101 Manual and when I plug my Windows 10 PC into the VSX-44 AVR, i get a picture on my TV, but no sound. If I plug the PC into the TV directly via the same HDMI cord, I get picture and sound out of the TV speakers. Am I missing something simple? If I turn the volume up - there is a rapid steady clicking sound coming out of the subwoofer.
I would try reinstall your GPU drivers to see if that fixes your HDMI audio issues.

What GPU do you have installed? Are you using the correct HDMI port on the PC as mine has two (1 onboard and 1 pci-e).

Edit** Ignore that - your TV audio wouldn't work if the above was a problem.

Have you created an input on the AVR that has HDMI video and Audio as the input type?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
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post #19176 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisGTL View Post
I would try reinstall your GPU drivers to see if that fixes your HDMI audio issues.

What GPU do you have installed? Are you using the correct HDMI port on the PC as mine has two (1 onboard and 1 pci-e).

Edit** Ignore that - your TV audio wouldn't work if the above was a problem.

Have you created an input on the AVR that has HDMI video and Audio as the input type?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
Well, I'm using the GAME input on the AVR. I plugged the HDMI into my Macbook pro and get sound just fine (and picture). For some reason the Windows 10 PC (laptop) had some other "Dell Audio" program running. I uninstalled both devices and drivers and reinstalled the latest from Dell's website. Seems to work fine now. Now just waiting for the UMIK-1 to arrive from Fedex!
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post #19177 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
In post 19163, you show four graphs. Do the HDMI3 measurements include the sub as well?

OK, I am going to review how to properly label the measurements one more time. Hopefully it will stick this time.

There is an area associated with each measurement where you can enter description text, as in this example:




The text you enter will appear in the legend, as shown here:



And finally, when you capture the screen and select "Include Legend", the description is now clearly shown in your screen capture, as shown here:




Is this more clear now?




Got it, I'll do that in future.

Yes, the four graphs of hdmi 3 in post 19163 are centre channel plus SW.

Thanks
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post #19178 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 08:33 AM
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I'm not sure if it helps but these are my dirac curves.

I have my centre grouped with my L and R but have separated them in one of the attachments to make it clearer what is going on.

Thanks
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post #19179 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by indus1 View Post
I'm not sure if it helps but these are my dirac curves.

I have my centre grouped with my L and R but have separated them in one of the attachments to make it clearer what is going on.

Thanks
I can't understand this post either. The first screenshot shows the center by itself, and the third screenshot shows the center grouped with the left and right speakers. Which is correct?

And I see little correlation between the Dirac "Avg (after)" graphs and your REW measurements. For example where is that huge spike at 9.5KHz that shows in REW? It is completely absent from the Dirac graphs.

Something isn't right about your REW measurement technique, I am sorry to say. Not sure where to go from here. Perhaps Matt will have a suggestion.
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post #19180 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I can't understand this post either. The first screenshot shows the center by itself, and the third screenshot shows the center grouped with the left and right speakers. Which is correct?

And I see little correlation between the Dirac "Avg (after)" graphs and your REW measurements. For example where is that huge spike at 9.5KHz that shows in REW? It is completely absent from the Dirac graphs.

Something isn't right about your REW measurement technique, I am sorry to say. Not sure where to go from here. Perhaps Matt will have a suggestion.

Jerry, I thought I made it clear in the post above. When I run dirac I have LCR grouped together. I just separated the centre out to make it clearer to see what's going on with the centre channel. Feel free to ignore that graph.

I run dirac with the LCR grouped together as shown in the third screen shot.

Thanks
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post #19181 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Well, I'm using the GAME input on the AVR. I plugged the HDMI into my Macbook pro and get sound just fine (and picture). For some reason the Windows 10 PC (laptop) had some other "Dell Audio" program running. I uninstalled both devices and drivers and reinstalled the latest from Dell's website. Seems to work fine now. Now just waiting for the UMIK-1 to arrive from Fedex!
I, too just got REW up and running last month; and if it helps, I ended up using my MBPro. There's a link in @AustinJerry 's guide (link in his sig) to an excellent walkthrough for Mac that I followed (including screenshots), posted by @markus767 . Of course, I then followed Jerry's guide as far as best practices for posting graphs and such in this thread for participation/feedback.

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post #19182 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by indus1 View Post
Jerry, I thought I made it clear in the post above. When I run dirac I have LCR grouped together. I just separated the centre out to make it clearer to see what's going on with the centre channel. Feel free to ignore that graph.

I run dirac with the LCR grouped together as shown in the third screen shot.

Thanks
Sorry, I should be paying more attention. I have some distractions going on around me here this morning. Carry on....

Are you going to continue to ignore my question regarding the 9.5KHz spike? Or should I simply bow out of this discussion?
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post #19183 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by galonzo View Post
I, too just got REW up and running last month; and if it helps, I ended up using my MBPro. There's a link in @AustinJerry 's guide (link in his sig) to an excellent walkthrough for Mac that I followed (including screenshots), posted by @markus767 . Of course, I then followed Jerry's guide as far as best practices for posting graphs and such in this thread for participation/feedback.
Just looked at that guide - looks simpler than the one I was looking at for PC. A lot different though. Results will be the same using either the PC or the MAC? Also, after reading more and more I feel like I'm getting more and more confused. I thought the idea was to EQ one speaker at a time, like just the sub, just the front left, etc. I see most people combine 2 or more though and run EQ that way? Why? I'm initially and primarily interested in measuring and fixing my subwoofer response.
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post #19184 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Just looked at that guide - looks simpler than the one I was looking at for PC. A lot different though. Results will be the same using either the PC or the MAC? Also, after reading more and more I feel like I'm getting more and more confused. I thought the idea was to EQ one speaker at a time, like just the sub, just the front left, etc. I see most people combine 2 or more though and run EQ that way? Why? I'm initially and primarily interested in measuring and fixing my subwoofer response.
When you say you are interested in improving the sub response, I believe what you are really saying is that you want improved bass response. Bass response involves not only the sub, but how the sub interacts with the main speakers, primarily the center speaker. So, your approach is actually several steps:

1. Analyze the sub response by itself. Using several techniques, including finding the best location for the sub, and perhaps applying EQ using REW's EQ tool, optimize the sub response before looking at the combined response.

2. Measure the sub plus the mains (I use the center channel). Look at the shape of the response curve in the crossover region. Adjust crossover values and the phase relationship between sub and mains for smoothest response.

3. Once the flattest response is achieved, look at bass resonance, measured by the waterfall or the spectrogram. If bass resonance looks bad, consider room treatments to get it under control.

4. Finally, consider using an automated room correction system (e.g. Audyssey or Dirac) to apply the final touches. You may want to do this step before doing step 3.
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post #19185 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by indus1 View Post
Hi Jerry

I thought somebody had asked me for centre channel only. Perhaps I misunderstood. That's just one graph though. There are four graphs of ch3 measured in the convential way ie centre +sw.

Anyway, if the sub response is reasonable then what's going on with the centre speaker + SW interaction? What can I do to figure out what the issue is?

Thanks
That was me that asked for the CC by itself, this was to try and diagnose why there was a large dip in the CC+subs response at ~57hz which wasn't present in the Subs Only graph.

As you can see, the CC is definitely effecting the sub response from 50-60hz. Two things you could try to alleviate this; move the CC a bit forward or back to try to improve it's bass response, or use a higher crossover.

On the overlay, you can see that when you add in the CC you are getting cancellations in the FR all the way down to almost 20hz...this is quite unusual and I do not have an answer for you.
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post #19186 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
When you say you are interested in improving the sub response, I believe what you are really saying is that you want improved bass response. Bass response involves not only the sub, but how the sub interacts with the main speakers, primarily the center speaker. So, your approach is actually several steps:

1. Analyze the sub response by itself. Using several techniques, including finding the best location for the sub, and perhaps applying EQ using REW's EQ tool, optimize the sub response before looking at the combined response.

2. Measure the sub plus the mains (I use the center channel). Look at the shape of the response curve in the crossover region. Adjust crossover values and the phase relationship between sub and mains for smoothest response.

3. Once the flattest response is achieved, look at bass resonance, measured by the waterfall or the spectrogram. If bass resonance looks bad, consider room treatments to get it under control.

4. Finally, consider using an automated room correction system (e.g. Audyssey or Dirac) to apply the final touches. You may want to do this step before doing step 3.
Thanks for the info and good point about the bass response vs sub response. Currently I am using MCACC (Pioneer's Audyssey) - and the system sounds pretty good. A couple things to note before I begin. First, I have very little flexibility as to moving the subwoofer, or any speakers for that matter. The wires are run through the walls right to where the speakers are. I already know its not ideal due to the room layout. The Surround left is much further from MLP then the surround right, and the surround right is only a couple feet away, but its about the best I could do position wise. The subwoofer is basically banished to the corner it's in now, though i can turn it different directions if needed/if it helps. Second, if room treatments are needed, they would need to be done in a VERY creative way since the system is in the shared living room area and WAF is big here. Creative meaning hidden in plain site as decorations or similar.

Based on what you said in step 4 about running MCACC when all is done, wouldn't that override any changed i may have made to crossover, etc?
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post #19187 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Thanks for the info and good point about the bass response vs sub response. Currently I am using MCACC (Pioneer's Audyssey) - and the system sounds pretty good. A couple things to note before I begin. First, I have very little flexibility as to moving the subwoofer, or any speakers for that matter. The wires are run through the walls right to where the speakers are. I already know its not ideal due to the room layout. The Surround left is much further from MLP then the surround right, and the surround right is only a couple feet away, but its about the best I could do position wise. The subwoofer is basically banished to the corner it's in now, though i can turn it different directions if needed/if it helps. Second, if room treatments are needed, they would need to be done in a VERY creative way since the system is in the shared living room area and WAF is big here. Creative meaning hidden in plain site as decorations or similar.

Based on what you said in step 4 about running MCACC when all is done, wouldn't that override any changed i may have made to crossover, etc?
Yes, along with the speaker trims and sub distance setting (which you may change when doing the sub distance tweak*), but you would change those values again post-calibration to where they measure best.

You will be surprised how convincing you can be about critical sub placement once you see your graphs.


*The sub distance tweak, Reader's Digest version:

1) Measure CC+subs (all speakers set to small, REW HDMI output CH3, sweep measurement)
2) Note if there is a dip at the crossover point (could be just above/below crossover as well)
3) Adjust subwoofer distance setting in AVR in +1' increments (make sure to back out of the distance setting menu or the changes won't take effect)
4) Re-measure
5) Repeat steps 3 & 4 until the dip comes up to flat

If your system is mainly movies, step 1 should be CC+subs...if mostly music you should measure FR+subs or FL+subs. If it is an even split, you will need to find a distance setting with the best compromise between mains & center.
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post #19188 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
...
I feel that this posting should be a popup whenever someone comes into the thread.

In fact, over the last few days I have been wondering about these very issues myself. I was lost and now I'm found again ;-)

thanks so much, @AustinJerry for helping me to keep the eyes on the prize.
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post #19189 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Yes, along with the speaker trims and sub distance setting (which you may change when doing the sub distance tweak*), but you would change those values again post-calibration to where they measure best.

You will be surprised how convincing you can be about critical sub placement once you see your graphs.


*The sub distance tweak, Reader's Digest version:

1) Measure CC+subs (all speakers set to small, REW HDMI output CH3, sweep measurement)
2) Note if there is a dip at the crossover point (could be just above/below crossover as well)
3) Adjust subwoofer distance setting in AVR in +1' increments (make sure to back out of the distance setting menu or the changes won't take effect)
4) Re-measure
5) Repeat steps 3 & 4 until the dip comes up to flat

If your system is mainly movies, step 1 should be CC+subs...if mostly music you should measure FR+subs or FL+subs. If it is an even split, you will need to find a distance setting with the best compromise between mains & center.
Thanks, Alan. I understand. So mainly - the response graphs people post are normally CC+sub(s) or LR+sub(s) when EQing bass?
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post #19190 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
... First, I have very little flexibility as to moving the subwoofer, or any speakers for that matter. ... Second, if room treatments are needed, they would need to be done in a VERY creative way since the system is in the shared living room area and WAF is big here. Creative meaning hidden in plain site as decorations or similar.
Just about everyone who comes into this thread has said this very same thing. And yet they all have found ways to move their sub(s) into better locations for better FR and decor. I think someone even converted a sub into an end table.

In terms of room treatment, I like to point out the movie poster treatment thread. The creativity of individuals on AVS never ceases to amaze.
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post #19191 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by indus1 View Post
When you say my configuration for bass management is incorrect, how do I figure out what the problem is? All I've done is set the crossovers in my AVP to 80-90hz and turned Audyssey off so that dirac can apply eq.
I would guess it is your dirac config, do you have the right config used there? I forget which one is correct, custom maybe? Jerry would know.

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Originally Posted by indus1 View Post
And just to be sure I'm not measuring incorrectly can I just check something with you? Under preferences I'm selecting HD audio output 1 as the timing reference.
This means you use the L speaker as timing reference. You can use any of them really. Do you hear it play as expected?
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post #19192 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 11:00 AM
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Thanks, Alan. I understand. So mainly - the response graphs people post are normally CC+sub(s) or LR+sub(s) when EQing bass?
Correct...almost.

You want to measure FL+subs (CH1) and FR+subs (CH2) separately. Something to do with comb filtering if I understand it correctly.
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post #19193 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by indus1 View Post
I'm not sure if it helps but these are my dirac curves.

I have my centre grouped with my L and R but have separated them in one of the attachments to make it clearer what is going on.

Thanks
This might be a comment for the dirac thread but you are boosting an awful lot beyond what your speakers can handle. Is this considered wise by dirac users? I suspect you would benefit from the BM plugin anyway.
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post #19194 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by indus1 View Post
Channel 3 with sub switched off.

If I've understood the question about the signal chain correctly then it goes like this.

Source >Marantz 7702 mk2 AVP > minidsp dirac88a > poweramps > speakers

I'm connecting my windows 10 laptop with a hdmi cable to the DVD hdmi input on my 7702.

I tend to use cross overs of 80hz for LCR and 90hz for surrounds.


Hopefully this will work

https://www.dropbox.com/s/s2t8ijfp4o...6REW.mdat?dl=0


Thanks
This explains your boosted midbass, that response is not an 80Hz high pass filter. I imagine this is a function of the excessive boost in your dirac target.
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post #19195 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Sorry, I should be paying more attention. I have some distractions going on around me here this morning. Carry on....

Are you going to continue to ignore my question regarding the 9.5KHz spike? Or should I simply bow out of this discussion?

Jerry

I have no idea what that spike is. If I did I would answer. I was actually hoping somebody else would chip in and solve that mystery.
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post #19196 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
That was me that asked for the CC by itself, this was to try and diagnose why there was a large dip in the CC+subs response at ~57hz which wasn't present in the Subs Only graph.

As you can see, the CC is definitely effecting the sub response from 50-60hz. Two things you could try to alleviate this; move the CC a bit forward or back to try to improve it's bass response, or use a higher crossover.

On the overlay, you can see that when you add in the CC you are getting cancellations in the FR all the way down to almost 20hz...this is quite unusual and I do not have an answer for you.


Thanks.

LCR are all behind an AT screen with no space to move them back or forward more than about half an inch.

I can move the sub forward, not back though as it is right up against the screen wall directly under the screen. It would look a bit odd but its a dedicated room so no WAF issues really.
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post #19197 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
I would guess it is your dirac config, do you have the right config used there? I forget which one is correct, custom maybe? Jerry would know.


This means you use the L speaker as timing reference. You can use any of them really. Do you hear it play as expected?

Yes I'm pretty sure its the right dirac configuration ie custom> 8 channels.

The timing reference might be important here. HD audio 1 is not the left channel. When I click on output I get the following options

1 HD audio1 (default)
2 HD audio 2

I'm not sure what these two actually refer to.

Then come the actual channels which appear like this

3: Display audio output 1 1 which refers to L channel
4: Display audio outpur 1 2 "" "" "" R channel
5: Display audio output 1 3 "" "" "" C channel
6: Display audio output 1 4 "" "" "" Sub channel

And it goes on like that across the remaining 4 channels

Thanks

Last edited by indus1; 07-27-2016 at 11:51 AM.
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post #19198 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 11:54 AM
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I've attached an image to show what I mean. I've had to take a photo as snippet wouldn't let me click to show the drop down menu.


Thanks
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post #19199 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 11:57 AM
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Got the Mic - everything is setup - i downloaded the 90 degree calibration file from MiniDSP's website. Weirdly, I cannot get REW to output tones to the receiver - although anything else I play on the PC goes to the receiver. Instead it is playing out of the PC speakers, even after I disable them! Any ideas there?
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post #19200 of 23257 Old 07-27-2016, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
That was me that asked for the CC by itself, this was to try and diagnose why there was a large dip in the CC+subs response at ~57hz which wasn't present in the Subs Only graph.

As you can see, the CC is definitely effecting the sub response from 50-60hz. Two things you could try to alleviate this; move the CC a bit forward or back to try to improve it's bass response, or use a higher crossover.

On the overlay, you can see that when you add in the CC you are getting cancellations in the FR all the way down to almost 20hz...this is quite unusual and I do not have an answer for you.
Been trying to follow along so perhaps I missed something but that C measurement appears as though a XO is engaged around 60Hz. Just wanted to confirm that when taking the C only (no sub), he's changing the speaker to large or at least lowering the XO to the lowest possible value?

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