Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 643 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #19261 of 21559 Old 07-28-2016, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by indus1 View Post
I also experimented with different cross overs on hdmi3 from 80-110hz and that doesn't seem to make any difference either.
That is exceedingly strange. Did you back out of the menu to make sure the crossover change "took"?
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post #19262 of 21559 Old 07-28-2016, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by indus1 View Post
I'm not having much luck. I checked under the 'analysis' tab of preferences and it was already set to no timing reference. So I'm assuming I've never been using a timing reference.

I took a fresh set of measurements including for left and right speaker just in case that sheds any light on the matter.

I'm not sure where to go from here.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/2wuyga4zcl...mdat.mdat?dl=0
Indeed, you were not using a timing reference. However, if you have Timing Reference disabled and you select a channel for Timing Reference Output, you are outputting to both of those channels at the same time. So, you haven't been measuring what you thought you were.
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post #19263 of 21559 Old 07-28-2016, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
That is exceedingly strange. Did you back out of the menu to make sure the crossover change "took"?
It isn't strange, or at least it is not necessarily strange.

He is boosting both channels beyond so as to remove the acoustic rolloff hence the crossover can function as a crossover (without interference from the acoustic rolloff of either speaker).

However typical prepro crossovers are asymmetric hence this strategy is liable to result in a non flat output which then needs further correction to flatten.

Breaking down the signal chain to the constituent parts would allow this to be measured and understood in depth if required.
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post #19264 of 21559 Old 07-28-2016, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
That is exceedingly strange. Did you back out of the menu to make sure the crossover change "took"?
I backed out one step but not all the way out. I'll back all the way out next time.
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post #19265 of 21559 Old 07-28-2016, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
It isn't strange, or at least it is not necessarily strange.

He is boosting both channels beyond so as to remove the acoustic rolloff hence the crossover can function as a crossover (without interference from the acoustic rolloff of either speaker).
I didn't understand this sentence. Can you rephrase, please?
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post #19266 of 21559 Old 07-28-2016, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Indeed, you were not using a timing reference. However, if you have Timing Reference disabled and you select a channel for Timing Reference Output, you are outputting to both of those channels at the same time. So, you haven't been measuring what you thought you were.

I'm a bit confused. I've selected 'no timing reference' under 'analysis' but under 'soundcard preferences' you have to have something in the box marked timing reference.
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post #19267 of 21559 Old 07-28-2016, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
It isn't strange, or at least it is not necessarily strange.

He is boosting both channels beyond so as to remove the acoustic rolloff hence the crossover can function as a crossover (without interference from the acoustic rolloff of either speaker).

However typical prepro crossovers are asymmetric hence this strategy is liable to result in a non flat output which then needs further correction to flatten.

Breaking down the signal chain to the constituent parts would allow this to be measured and understood in depth if required.

Matt, have you had a chance to look at my latest data? I've added left and right channels if that helps, I thought in case there is an actual fault with the centre speaker?

Timing reference was already switched off under the 'analysis' tab.

Any idea where I go from here to figure out my strange data?

Thanks
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post #19268 of 21559 Old 07-28-2016, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
I didn't understand this sentence. Can you rephrase, please?
a typical (THX style) AVR crossover uses a 4th order low pass filter and a 2nd order high pass filter. The 2nd order HPF is meant to sum with the natural acoustic high pass filter of the main (satellite) speaker so that the total high pass filter is also a 4th order filter. If this actually happened in practice then the result is a flat response irrespective of whether the filters are at 80Hz, 120Hz or whatever.

If you look at indus's Dirac graphs then you'll see he is boosting his main speaker aggressively all the way down to ~30-40Hz, i.e. a full octave beyond the 80Hz crossover and more than an octave beyond what looks like the natural rolloff around 100-120Hz. Similarly the subwoofer is being boosted to flat to around 200Hz.

If those speakers are actually flat well beyond the crossover point then that crossover has a chance of working as intended to produce a flat output.

However real life gets in the way in that a) the typical AVR crossover is assymetric so further correction would be required to flatten out the result, b) the room makes a mess of it in this frequency range. The best solution is therefore to have your crossover algorithm also implement your crossovers so it can ensure a nice sum. No mainstream consumer equipment does this though so various other solutions exist that let people get close enough. A minidsp/dirac owner is probably well advised to use the BM plugin for this purpose.

Is this clear(er)?
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post #19269 of 21559 Old 07-28-2016, 01:00 PM
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^^^

Most of what you say goes way over my head d00d , but if I understand this correctly, indus's FR graph won't necessarily change when adjusting crossovers (although mine does, each and every time).

Also, are you saying that indus is boosting his mains incorrectly? How would he correct that?
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post #19270 of 21559 Old 07-28-2016, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
^^^

Most of what you say goes way over my head d00d , but if I understand this correctly, indus's FR graph won't necessarily change when adjusting crossovers (although mine does, each and every time).

Also, are you saying that indus is boosting his mains incorrectly? How would he correct that?
I'm saying

1) his setup is attempting to minimise the extent to which changing the crossover in the receiver by a few Hz will make a difference
2) the result of this configuration is a fairly substantial midbass boost which might well be, or it might not be, what he's trying to fix (as an aside I think an 80Hz crossover is really pushing it for his speakers too)

so yes I am saying that boost is most probably incorrect if the goal is a more consistent response and the bass management employs asymmetric filters

He may be able to use the high pass filter to sum with his bass management filter to achieve a better result (or this might be terrible!) or the BM plugin is another option. Of course there might be other options too.
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post #19271 of 21559 Old 07-28-2016, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indus1 View Post
I'm a bit confused. I've selected 'no timing reference' under 'analysis' but under 'soundcard preferences' you have to have something in the box marked timing reference.
you don't have to select something, you can leave it as is

the new data looks even worse, you have masses of data before the largest peak now. I really have no idea what this could be. Can you post a pic of your Asio4all config? perhaps that will shed some light. Take another measurement with the 2nd channel deselected too. Failing that it's over to HTS to see if JohnM can advise.

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post #19272 of 21559 Old 07-28-2016, 04:24 PM
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^^^

Could it be a bad mic d00d??
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post #19273 of 21559 Old 07-28-2016, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
...
That was great, thanks! I had bad luck with my minidsp so I just ordered a Xilica off eBay. Please let me know if you have any suggestions for how best to use such a device. My plan is to use it as a 1x4 splitter, time align my subs, and some PEQ to get rid of a room mode @ 31 Hz.
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post #19274 of 21559 Old 07-28-2016, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
you don't have to select something, you can leave it as is

the new data looks even worse, you have masses of data before the largest peak now. I really have no idea what this could be. Can you post a pic of your Asio4all config? perhaps that will shed some light. Take another measurement with the 2nd channel deselected too. Failing that it's over to HTS to see if JohnM can advise.


I had an issue with extremely noisy impulse response when I was using one USB interface with mic to measure with REW and another USB soundcard to output sweep to a speaker.
Using same USB interface for input and output doesn't have that issue.

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post #19275 of 21559 Old 07-28-2016, 09:24 PM
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After some minor fixes to securing the amp onto my LV12R I decided to rerun some of my sweeps tonight moving the mic slightly as I went. Results are below. File can be downloaded here.



MLP vs Best alternative (happens to be SLP) Unsmoothed



Going to run same tests LFE only now at -22db. Anyone think I can do anything to improve this, other than Moving the sub for now and other than miniDSP for now?
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My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
Plasma 50" TV: Samsung PN50C8000 — DLP Projector: Optoma GT1080
Projector Screen: Elite VMAX2 Electric — Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44 — Fronts: B&W 684 S1
Center: B&W CM Center S2 — Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rythmik FV15HP
Rear Surrounds: Polk Audio T15 — Front Heights: Polk Audio T15

Last edited by citsur86; 07-28-2016 at 09:27 PM.
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post #19276 of 21559 Old 07-28-2016, 09:40 PM
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Just ran LFE only - looks like I have a considerable dip at MLP right before Xover pt (at 80hz). I tried the distance tweek and even at a foot further, there is no difference at all in the graph.



File can be downloaded here.
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My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
Plasma 50" TV: Samsung PN50C8000 — DLP Projector: Optoma GT1080
Projector Screen: Elite VMAX2 Electric — Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44 — Fronts: B&W 684 S1
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Rear Surrounds: Polk Audio T15 — Front Heights: Polk Audio T15
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post #19277 of 21559 Old 07-28-2016, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
After some minor fixes to securing the amp onto my LV12R I decided to rerun some of my sweeps tonight moving the mic slightly as I went. Results are below. File can be downloaded here.

Going to run same tests LFE only now at -22db. Anyone think I can do anything to improve this, other than Moving the sub for now and other than miniDSP for now?
This shows that the MLP is not ideal for bass response. 1ft right is obviously the worst position, with a 50dB dip at 55Hz! 2ft left seems to be the best response.

The most improvement will come from what many would recommend--additional subs. You can certainly try EQ, but I suspect the improvement will be only at one listening spot.

BTW, when showing bass response below 300Hz, the graphs are normally shown with no smoothing.

Here is an example of what multiple subs can do:

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post #19278 of 21559 Old 07-28-2016, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
This shows that the MLP is not ideal for bass response. 1ft right is obviously the worst position, with a 50dB dip at 55Hz! 2ft left seems to be the best response.

The most improvement will come from what many would recommend--additional subs. You can certainly try EQ, but I suspect the improvement will be only at one listening spot.

BTW, when showing bass response below 300Hz, the graphs are normally shown with no smoothing.

Here is an example of what multiple subs can do:

Nice - got it about the smoothing. Yeah I would love to get another LV12R - not in the cards right now - maybe in October when bonuses come around For now it looks like SLP just became MLP for me haha. Just ran EQ with fronts - here is what we got.

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My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
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Projector Screen: Elite VMAX2 Electric — Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44 — Fronts: B&W 684 S1
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Rear Surrounds: Polk Audio T15 — Front Heights: Polk Audio T15
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post #19279 of 21559 Old 07-28-2016, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donktard View Post
I had an issue with extremely noisy impulse response when I was using one USB interface with mic to measure with REW and another USB soundcard to output sweep to a speaker.
Using same USB interface for input and output doesn't have that issue.

Hi

I'm sorry but I don't follow. I use asio4 drivers, would the situation that affected you be relevant to me?

Thanks.
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post #19280 of 21559 Old 07-28-2016, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
you don't have to select something, you can leave it as is

the new data looks even worse, you have masses of data before the largest peak now. I really have no idea what this could be. Can you post a pic of your Asio4all config? perhaps that will shed some light. Take another measurement with the 2nd channel deselected too. Failing that it's over to HTS to see if JohnM can advise.


Hi Matt

Perhaps its best to go back to basics to see if there is a set up problem. I know it's tedious but if I post images of all of my various settings ie asio4, REW preferences, PC etc would you be kind enough to have a look?

Thanks very much.
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post #19281 of 21559 Old 07-29-2016, 12:22 AM
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Ok, I know this is tedious but if anybody could look at these settings just to make sure I haven't cocked it up I'd be very grateful.

Part 1....!
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post #19282 of 21559 Old 07-29-2016, 12:25 AM
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Part 2
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part3
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post #19284 of 21559 Old 07-29-2016, 12:39 AM
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You have the wrong mic set as your input in REW, PREFERENCES, INPUT

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
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post #19285 of 21559 Old 07-29-2016, 12:50 AM
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Deselect the timing reference output aswell
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post #19286 of 21559 Old 07-29-2016, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisGTL View Post
You have the wrong mic set as your input in REW, PREFERENCES, INPUT

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Thanks, are you referring to file avs 14? I'm pretty sure I have been selecting the umik when actually measuring. I just set everything up quickly this morning before work to get the screenshots.

I will double check though.
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post #19287 of 21559 Old 07-29-2016, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
Deselect the timing reference output aswell
Hi Matt

Are you referring to file avs 14? If so then I can't deselect 'timing reference output', it won't let me. Something has to go in that box. The options are

HD Audio output 1
HD Audio output 2

And then there are the eight hdmi channels.

Thanks
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post #19288 of 21559 Old 07-29-2016, 03:27 AM
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you probably want to post the correct settings when you're posting a load of pics of your settings for people to verify There isn't an option to override the input channel on the measurement screen though (so I would have thought your preferences screen is accurate and you've been using the wrong mic, this would explain lot of things)

I don't know what you mean by "it won't let me", you just select the "please select something" entry and/or deselect the checkbox (not the most obvious UX I agree)

which version of REW are you using?

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post #19289 of 21559 Old 07-29-2016, 03:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
you probably want to post the correct settings when you're posting a load of pics of your settings for people to verify There isn't an option to override the input channel on the measurement screen though (so I would have thought your preferences screen is accurate and you've been using the wrong mic, this would explain lot of things)

I don't know what you mean by "it won't let me", you just select the "please select something" entry and/or deselect the checkbox (not the most obvious UX I agree)

which version of REW are you using?

Attachment 1571345

Attachment 1571353

Thanks Matt

On your first slide you have an option 'choose ref output' in the drop down. I don't have that option appear. HD audio ouput 1 appears as the first option rather than 'choose ref output'

Perhaps I have inadvertently turned something on somewhere that prevents the 'choose ref output' option from appearing?

I think I'm using the latest version of REW but won't be able to check until I get home.
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post #19290 of 21559 Old 07-29-2016, 04:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indus1 View Post
Thanks Matt

On your first slide you have an option 'choose ref output' in the drop down. I don't have that option appear. HD audio ouput 1 appears as the first option rather than 'choose ref output'

Perhaps I have inadvertently turned something on somewhere that prevents the 'choose ref output' option from appearing?
it looks like the UI has changed around this now without me noticing, you now leave those channels selected in the preferences screen and it seems yo ucontrol whether they are used or not in the measurement screen

There was also this fix in beta6

Bug fix: With ASIO drivers the timing ref output selector was shown when first opening the measurement dialog even when not using a timing reference

we'd probably need someone to play around with the options to be 100% certain of how they interact though. I know Jerry was updating his guide so perhaps he's tried this out already. I generally use an physical loopback myself so don't pay much attention to these options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by indus1 View Post
I think I'm using the latest version of REW but won't be able to check until I get home.
http://www.roomeqwizard.com/beta.html is the latest, I recommend you upgrade to this one and then

- I would disable your onboard audio in asio4all
- use a real channel in the timing reference output box
- make sure you use the UMIK as the input
- turn off use of a timing reference in analysis preferences
- make sure you have the right output channels selected when you measure
- post pics of this configuration
- post new measurements using this config
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