Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 652 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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Old 08-06-2016, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The objective of the exercise was to measure the center channel. To do that, the same mono signal must be sent to both the left and right channels. So I am not sure what your suggestion means.

And using all channel stereo and unplugging the other speakers might be an option, but I am not looking for a solution that requires unplugging a lot of speakers. And finally, I am using a 100Hz crossover.
Why would it need to be sent to both channels? What do you think will happen if you send signal only to left channel? My guess is that frequency response measured on center channel will be 3dB lower then if you send signal to both speakers. The only thing I am not sure is will signal be 3dB lower across whole spectrum or only below crossover point.

I actually tried the same today with dreaded multi ch stereo. Frequency response of center channel was same when I sent to only left/right and when i sent to both. The only difference was that SPL when I sent to both channels was higher across whole frequency range.

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Old 08-06-2016, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Why would it need to be sent to both channels? What do you think will happen if you send signal only to left channel? My guess is that frequency response measured on center channel will be 3dB lower then if you send signal to both speakers. The only thing I am not sure is will signal be 3dB lower across whole spectrum or only below crossover point.

I actually tried the same today with dreaded multi ch stereo. Frequency response of center channel was same when I sent to only left/right and when i sent to both. The only difference was that SPL when I sent to both channels was higher across whole frequency range.
If you send a signal to the left speaker, then the sound comes out of the left speaker, not the center channel. The purpose of sending the signal to both the left and the right speakers at the same time is that Pro Logic, and now Dolby Surround, algorithms ate designed to reproduce sound in the center channel if both left and right channels have the same signal. That is what a center channel does. Not sure why this is difficult for you to understand.
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Old 08-06-2016, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
If you send a signal to the left speaker, then the sound comes out of the left speaker, not the center channel. The purpose of sending the signal to both the left and the right speakers at the same time is that Pro Logic, and now Dolby Surround, algorithms ate designed to reproduce sound in the center channel if both left and right channels have the same signal. That is what a center channel does. Not sure why this is difficult for you to understand.
Got it now. Just a bit of a flaw in my logic.
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Old 08-07-2016, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
you need to keep the reference channel constant otherwise it's not a reference & you want the full set for each channel (main channel alone, sub alone, combined)

Hi there

I've taken the following measurements

1) Left, right and centre channel only with sub switched off. I have used the centre channel as TR. When measuring the centre channel I've taken two measurements, one with the centre as TR and another with left channel as TR.
I'm not sure there is any sense or use to this approach but thought it was better to have too much data than not enough...yet again lol


2) Left, right and centre channels in combination with sub. Once again the centre is TR for L and R and then two measurements for centre channel with two different TRs.

3) Sub signal only from Left, Right and Centre. Same deal with timing refs.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/2h09f6flox...8-16.mdat?dl=0


Thanks for your help
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Old 08-07-2016, 04:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
An unrelated question: Is there anyway to get REW to do the sweep measurement using an external WAV file? Occasionally I am curious as to what effect the entire chain has on sound. In that case it would be useful to measure a sweep using a file originating on my music server.
A measurement sweep can be saved to WAV from the signal generator. If you save a sweep with an acoustic timing reference signal, set the timing reference mode in the Analysis preferences to Acoustic timing reference and use 'Wait for timing reference' on the measurement dialog you can hit 'Start measuring' then play the WAV file to make the measurement. Just make sure the sweep settings in the measurement dialog are exactly the same as those used when the sweep was saved to WAV or the result will be meaningless.
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Old 08-07-2016, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by indus1 View Post

3) Sub signal only from Left, Right and Centre. Same deal with timing refs.

Thanks for your help
The sub measurement, whether taken when outputting the test signal to the left, right, or center speaker, will always be the same. This assumes the same crossover for each of the mains, of course. Don't know why you would think it would be different.

Something is going on with the center channel with that rather large dip. The left and right look reasonable.
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Old 08-07-2016, 06:23 AM
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The sub graph on its own looks ok apart from rolling off far to early at the 80Hz XO
Once you add a main speaker all bets are off.
I assume these are all with Dirac on ?
If it was me I would be taking all my sweeps with EQ off until I had things the best I could and then run Dirac.

No offence but if that's the best Dirac can do for Mains + Sub I'll stick with Audyssey for the time being
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Old 08-07-2016, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indus1 View Post
Hi there

I've taken the following measurements

1) Left, right and centre channel only with sub switched off. I have used the centre channel as TR. When measuring the centre channel I've taken two measurements, one with the centre as TR and another with left channel as TR.
I'm not sure there is any sense or use to this approach but thought it was better to have too much data than not enough...yet again lol


2) Left, right and centre channels in combination with sub. Once again the centre is TR for L and R and then two measurements for centre channel with two different TRs.

3) Sub signal only from Left, Right and Centre. Same deal with timing refs.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/2h09f6flox...8-16.mdat?dl=0


Thanks for your help
the dip in your centre channel response can be filled in, to some extent at least, with the sub but you need to fix its basic response first

this compares it to a 80Hz high pass filter of the sort your AVR applies, you can see there is a 5dB hump above the target around 70Hz and that comes out in your combined measurement. If you pull this down and adjust the timing of the sub a touch then you'll get a more even response through the crossover. You probably have to compromise along the way, I doubt you will be able to get all three bang on.
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Old 08-07-2016, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
The sub graph on its own looks ok apart from rolling off far to early at the 80Hz XO
Once you add a main speaker all bets are off.
I assume these are all with Dirac on ?
If it was me I would be taking all my sweeps with EQ off until I had things the best I could and then run Dirac.

No offence but if that's the best Dirac can do for Mains + Sub I'll stick with Audyssey for the time being
I don't think that is a fair criticism of Dirac. Unless you were to see an Audyssey calibration of Indus1's setup to see how well it handles what seem to be a difficult situation, I don't know how you can make any conclusions.
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Old 08-07-2016, 10:22 AM
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Will be attempting to setup miniDSP 2x4 HD filters and EQ today. Wish me luck!
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Old 08-07-2016, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The sub measurement, whether taken when outputting the test signal to the left, right, or center speaker, will always be the same. This assumes the same crossover for each of the mains, of course. Don't know why you would think it would be different.

Something is going on with the center channel with that rather large dip. The left and right look reasonable.

Matt asked me to provide the data. It is not for me to question why...
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Old 08-07-2016, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
the dip in your centre channel response can be filled in, to some extent at least, with the sub but you need to fix its basic response first

this compares it to a 80Hz high pass filter of the sort your AVR applies, you can see there is a 5dB hump above the target around 70Hz and that comes out in your combined measurement. If you pull this down and adjust the timing of the sub a touch then you'll get a more even response through the crossover. You probably have to compromise along the way, I doubt you will be able to get all three bang on.

Hi

Could you kindly give me some more instruction as to how I go about achieving this?

How do I pull down the hump? By adjusting the dirac curve?

How do I adjust the timing of the sub?

Thanks
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Old 08-07-2016, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by indus1 View Post
Matt asked me to provide the data. It is not for me to question why...
the reason is.... don't assume (that they will be the same), measure and know for certain
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Old 08-07-2016, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by indus1 View Post
Could you kindly give me some more instruction as to how I go about achieving this?

How do I pull down the hump? By adjusting the dirac curve?
You probably have 2 main options given your current equipment

1) get the bass management module and do bass management in the 88a
2) tweak the dirac curve to guide dirac into producing the curve you want

which one do you want to do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by indus1 View Post
How do I adjust the timing of the sub?
depends on the answer to the above q (if bm in 88a then I believe it has delay setting, if not then fiddling with distances in the avr)
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Old 08-07-2016, 10:42 AM
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De-lurking for a quickie:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Obviously there is some difference. Why? I don't know. Perhaps someone else will have a theory.
Older surround processing, like PLII, had single band steering: everything that was identical in the L/R channels (across the entire frequency range) was steered to the centre output. As such, the matrix extracted centre output had basically the same frequency response of the mono test signal being fed to the L/R channels.

By comparison, DSU (and Neural:X) uses multi-band steering, which slices the contents of each channel into several frequency bands. Having to move only parts of the channel allows for faster logic steering, which helps sound more like discrete multi-channel rather than matrix surround processing. With certain frequency bands being steered more heavily than others towards the centre output, the extracted centre can no longer be guaranteed to have the same frequency response as the L/R channels.

Sanjay
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Old 08-07-2016, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
You probably have 2 main options given your current equipment

1) get the bass management module and do bass management in the 88a
2) tweak the dirac curve to guide dirac into producing the curve you want

which one do you want to do?


depends on the answer to the above q (if bm in 88a then I believe it has delay setting, if not then fiddling with distances in the avr)

If I get the bass management module we'll still be trying to sort this out on Christmas day

By the time I've got it and figured out how to set it up and use it months will pass and the problem is spoiling my enjoyment of my cinema room right now.

So I'd like to try adjusting the dirac curve first. If you could give me a little more idea about what I am trying to achieve in this regard it would be really helpful.

Is there something else that's simple to use and that could help me set the delay?

Thanks again
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Old 08-07-2016, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Will be attempting to setup miniDSP 2x4 HD filters and EQ today. Wish me luck!
Share your before and after graphs and filters used if you want feedback.

If you use the same basic settings I did when I created the filters based on your .mdats, you should get good results.

Just be sure to hit set target level before generating filters and avoid any boost, individual or overall. And try to avoid filters with Qs past 20 or so.

Good luck.
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Old 08-07-2016, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
the reason is.... don't assume (that they will be the same), measure and know for certain
He is feeding the same REW test signal to the left, right, and center channels. Bass re-direction sends the signal to the same sub. Again, assuming the crossovers are the same, under what conditions would you expect any difference in the three measurements? And if you look at the measurements, they indeed appear to be identical.


Last edited by AustinJerry; 08-07-2016 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 08-07-2016, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
the dip in your centre channel response can be filled in, to some extent at least, with the sub but you need to fix its basic response first
Matt, can you clarify what you mean? His center+sub clearly shows that the sub isn't doing any "filling in".



Could this be because of the non-minimum phase area centered below 90Hz?




So what is the logic behind the recommendation to move bass management to the 88BM from the AVR? How will that address the non-minimum phase issue?
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Old 08-07-2016, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indus1 View Post
Hi there

I've taken the following measurements....

Thanks for your help
Looking at the MDAT that you provided, bass resonance looks quite good as shown by the waterfall. However, the ETC graphs show a significant number of early reflections on all three channels. Reducing these reflections would likely improve the quality of the audio. Sub response by itself looks very good. Now if we could just figure out what is causing that massive dip in the center channel...
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Old 08-07-2016, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
De-lurking for a quickie: Older surround processing, like PLII, had single band steering: everything that was identical in the L/R channels (across the entire frequency range) was steered to the centre output. As such, the matrix extracted centre output had basically the same frequency response of the mono test signal being fed to the L/R channels.

By comparison, DSU (and Neural:X) uses multi-band steering, which slices the contents of each channel into several frequency bands. Having to move only parts of the channel allows for faster logic steering, which helps sound more like discrete multi-channel rather than matrix surround processing. With certain frequency bands being steered more heavily than others towards the centre output, the extracted centre can no longer be guaranteed to have the same frequency response as the L/R channels.
Thank you for this explanation, Sanjay. As I read it, I had a distinct feeling that this is not the first time I have heard you explain the differences, and I apologize if I have asked a question that you have answered in the past. Regardless, I have bookmarked your post so that I can refer to it if the question comes up again.

So this leaves us with the question--for REW users who are forced to use the Java driver, how can they accurately measure the frequency response of the center channel? As far as I can tell, the only way will be to physically move a speaker cable from the left or right channel and hook it to the center speaker. If you know of another way, please let me know. I think this is important enough to update the section of the Guide that deals with using the Java driver.
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Old 08-07-2016, 02:51 PM
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When setting up the filters for the MiniDSP 2x4 HD, do I initially run sweeps on Channel 3 (center+subs) or 4 (just LFE)? I am trying to do PEQ on just the bass response.

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Old 08-07-2016, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
He is feeding the same REW test signal to the left, right, and center channels. Bass re-direction sends the signal to the same sub. Again, assuming the crossovers are the same, under what conditions would you expect any difference in the three measurements? And if you look at the measurements, they indeed appear to be identical.

if he has the same crossover for each speaker and if there is no other random oddity then there is no reason to expect them to vary

my personal preference is avoiding wild goose chases so I prefer to measure to be sure that things are working as expected. I apply this rule in triplicate when it comes to data presented over the interweb
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Old 08-07-2016, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
When setting up the filters for the MiniDSP 2x4 HD, do I initially run sweeps on Channel 3 (center+subs) or 4 (just LFE)? I am trying to do PEQ on just the bass response.
You should measure sub only (HDMI4) with room correction off. Then run the REW equalization tool, save the filters to your local drive, launch the HD plug-in, and import the filters.

Once that is all completed, take a fresh measurement of the sub only (room correction still off, of course). Compare the before and after measurements to make sure the imported REW EQ filters are producing the desired result.

And finally, you will need to re-run room correction since the sub channel response has changed. Run a post-calibration measurement of the sub channel, and one of the sub+center as well. Post all four measurements here for use to see how well the process has worked.
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Old 08-07-2016, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
if he has the same crossover for each speaker and if there is no other random oddity then there is no reason to expect them to vary

my personal preference is avoiding wild goose chases so I prefer to measure to be sure that things are working as expected. I apply this rule in triplicate when it comes to data presented over the interweb
We are on the same page, Matt. Thanks.
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Old 08-07-2016, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Matt, can you clarify what you mean? His center+sub clearly shows that the sub isn't doing any "filling in".
my emphasis on my quote

the dip in your centre channel response can be filled in, to some extent at least, with the sub but you need to fix its basic response first
i.e. it's not filling in atm but if he tweaks it then the effect of that dip can be ameliorated (to some extent at least). However the dip then looks much worse because of the preceding hump and that comes from the excess output in the C channel which has been added by the dirac filter (according to earlier dirac data).

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
So what is the logic behind the recommendation to move bass management to the 88BM from the AVR? How will that address the non-minimum phase issue?
it gives him additional tools via different filter types and slopes. This will make it easier for him to use the sub to combat that event.
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Old 08-07-2016, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
You should measure sub only (HDMI4) with room correction off. Then run the REW equalization tool, save the filters to your local drive, launch the HD plug-in, and import the filters.

Once that is all completed, take a fresh measurement of the sub only (room correction still off, of course). Compare the before and after measurements to make sure the imported REW EQ filters are producing the desired result.

And finally, you will need to re-run room correction since the sub channel response has changed. Run a post-calibration measurement of the sub channel, and one of the sub+center as well. Post all four measurements here for use to see how well the process has worked.
Got it - so the idea is for the MiniDSP 2x4 HD to do PEQ before MCACC EQ? Won't the filters being applied from the HD be incorrect if I change the room EQ after having set them (the filters) up?

Also-I should have the db set to -22 for channel 4 right?

My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
Plasma 50" TV: Samsung PN50C8000 — DLP Projector: Optoma GT1080
Projector Screen: Elite VMAX2 Electric — Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44 — Fronts: B&W 684 S1
Center: B&W CM Center S2 — Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rythmik FV15HP
Rear Surrounds: Polk Audio T15 — Front Heights: Polk Audio T15

Last edited by citsur86; 08-07-2016 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 08-07-2016, 04:02 PM
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Just finished saving a filter - realized i dont have anything installed for the miniDSP 2x4 HD. I see there is a plugin but it is $10?

My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
Plasma 50" TV: Samsung PN50C8000 — DLP Projector: Optoma GT1080
Projector Screen: Elite VMAX2 Electric — Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44 — Fronts: B&W 684 S1
Center: B&W CM Center S2 — Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rythmik FV15HP
Rear Surrounds: Polk Audio T15 — Front Heights: Polk Audio T15
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Old 08-07-2016, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
You should measure sub only (HDMI4) with room correction off. Then run the REW equalization tool, save the filters to your local drive, launch the HD plug-in, and import the filters.

Once that is all completed, take a fresh measurement of the sub only (room correction still off, of course). Compare the before and after measurements to make sure the imported REW EQ filters are producing the desired result.

And finally, you will need to re-run room correction since the sub channel response has changed. Run a post-calibration measurement of the sub channel, and one of the sub+center as well. Post all four measurements here for use to see how well the process has worked.
Got it - so the idea is for the MiniDSP 2x4 HD to do PEQ before MCACC EQ? Won't the filters being applied from the HD be incorrect if I change the room EQ after having set them (the filters) up?

Also-I should have the db set to -22 for channel 4 right?
You want the MiniDSP to do the (main) sub EQ... MCACC might add a bit after that, but likely nothing significant on your model, which lacks sub EQ.

MCACC might improve the CC+sub measurement, though... likely at and above the crossover frequency.

As for the dBFS level -22 shall measure LFE channel at same level as -12 for CC+sub.
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Old 08-07-2016, 04:14 PM
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Just finished saving a filter - realized i dont have anything installed for the miniDSP 2x4 HD. I see there is a plugin but it is $10?
Did the person you bought it from already buy the plug-in? If so he can send you an install file for the plug-in.

I bought my 2x4 unbalanced from an AVS member and got the plug-in from them via the install file.
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