Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 658 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #19711 of 20735 Old 08-09-2016, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Here's MLP Main Only (flat 15-300Hz):

Attachment 1592649
Using this filter I ran Before EQ sweeps at 200Hz crossover with no EQ for both Channel 4 and Channel 3. Then I ran MCACC, which set crossover to 80hz globally, and I turned on EQ. Then I ran new sweeps of Channel 4 and Channel 3. Those are shown below. I think this is a pretty decent 15-20,000Hz response for Center+subs. Mdat can be downloaded here. Still didn't quite get rid of that peak from 22hz to 34hz though Maybe an additional PEQ filter on the output just for that peak?

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Last edited by citsur86; 08-09-2016 at 05:08 PM.
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post #19712 of 20735 Old 08-09-2016, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
I still don't see how what you explained differs from what I wrote.
Fractional octave smoothing is not the same thing as frequency dependent windowing, they are fundamentally different ways to process data.
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post #19713 of 20735 Old 08-09-2016, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Using this filter I ran Before EQ sweeps at 200Hz crossover with no EQ for both Channel 4 and Channel 3. Then I ran MCACC, which set crossover to 80hz globally, and I turned on EQ. Then I ran new sweeps of Channel 4 and Channel 3. Those are shown below. I think this is a pretty decent 15-20,000Hz response for Center+subs. Mdat can be downloaded here. Still didn't quite get rid of that peak from 22hz to 34hz though Maybe an additional PEQ filter on the output just for that peak?

I took a closer look at the .mdat with no smoothing applied (CC+sub and LFE) and it appears results are as expected relative to predicted response. It's not an ideal +/- 3dB response, but in terms of what sounds good with movies, I think you're set at least for now. Try watching some movies you're familiar with... then if you think something's off or could be better post here to see what can be done.

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post #19714 of 20735 Old 08-09-2016, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I took a closer look at the .mdat with no smoothing applied (CC+sub and LFE) and it appears results are as expected relative to predicted response. It's not an ideal +/- 3dB response, but in terms of what sounds good with movies, I think you're set at least for now. Try watching some movies you're familiar with... then if you think something's off or could be better post here to see what can be done.


Good idea. Thanks again for all your help. I'm pretty comfortable now with the majority of the process. I just need to understand what some of the options are while creating the filters that I don't know a bit better so I know what levers to pull to get an expected response.

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post #19715 of 20735 Old 08-09-2016, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Using this filter I ran Before EQ sweeps at 200Hz crossover with no EQ for both Channel 4 and Channel 3. Then I ran MCACC, which set crossover to 80hz globally, and I turned on EQ. Then I ran new sweeps of Channel 4 and Channel 3. Those are shown below. I think this is a pretty decent 15-20,000Hz response for Center+subs. Mdat can be downloaded here. Still didn't quite get rid of that peak from 22hz to 34hz though Maybe an additional PEQ filter on the output just for that peak?




@AustinJerry @Alanp . Thoughts? In your opinions, based on what you know I have equipment-wise, what are your thoughts?

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post #19716 of 20735 Old 08-09-2016, 05:49 PM
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I think I just realized the reason the screen capture you posted looks a bit off (but the mdat looks pretty good) is that the AVR is adding LPF to the LFE channel (even though you can't adjust it). Not a big deal, but if it bothers you, you'd want to use filters based on a ch4 LFE measurement (not CC set to 200Hz x-over and CC unplugged).

But it can be a house curve of sorts the way it is now, so don't stress over it.

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post #19717 of 20735 Old 08-09-2016, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I think I just realized the reason the screen capture you posted looks a bit off (but the mdat looks pretty good) is that the AVR is adding LPF to the LFE channel (even though you can't adjust it). Not a big deal, but if it bothers you, you'd want to use filters based on a ch4 LFE measurement (not CC set to 200Hz x-over and CC unplugged).



But it can be a house curve of sorts the way it is now, so don't stress over it.


You referring to the yellow line? That was channel 4 LFE only so it's getting the 80hz crossover applied which means the LPF right? Sorry a bit confused. Your saying the filter was created based on CC set to 200Hz x-over and CC unplugged but I'm showing a CH4 LFE measurement? No matter what I would always plug the center back in and set crossover to 80hz so what would the alternative be?

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post #19718 of 20735 Old 08-09-2016, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I think I just realized the reason the screen capture you posted looks a bit off (but the mdat looks pretty good) is that the AVR is adding LPF to the LFE channel (even though you can't adjust it). Not a big deal, but if it bothers you, you'd want to use filters based on a ch4 LFE measurement (not CC set to 200Hz x-over and CC unplugged).



But it can be a house curve of sorts the way it is now, so don't stress over it.


You referring to the yellow line? That was channel 4 LFE only so it's getting the 80hz crossover applied which means the LPF right? Sorry a bit confused. Your saying the filter was created based on CC set to 200Hz x-over and CC unplugged but I'm showing a CH4 LFE measurement? No matter what I would always plug the center back in and set crossover to 80hz so what would the alternative be?
What I'm basically saying is that the AVR applies a fixed LPF to the LFE channel even though there is no setting in the AVR menus for it. That LPF is specific to the LFE channel only and has nothing to do with your global crossover which is for bass management for your 7 speaker channels.

So, if you want the LFE channel measure to look flat when all is said and done then the MiniDSP filters you generate must be based off the ch4 LFE measure.

The reason LFE channel is not measuring flat at the moment is the filters are based off the ch3 no CC 200Hz crossover measure. That measure does not factor in the AVR's LPF for LFE.
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post #19719 of 20735 Old 08-09-2016, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Still didn't quite get rid of that peak from 22hz to 34hz though Maybe an additional PEQ filter on the output just for that peak?
My room creates a pretty big peak between 28-32Hz. Almost everyone said that low the only way to deal with it was PEQ.
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post #19720 of 20735 Old 08-09-2016, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Notice that EQ doesn't seem to make a dent in the dip centered at 42Hz.
The cause of the dip at 42 Hz is right here.
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post #19721 of 20735 Old 08-09-2016, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
What I'm basically saying is that the AVR applies a fixed LPF to the LFE channel even though there is no setting in the AVR menus for it. That LPF is specific to the LFE channel only and has nothing to do with your global crossover which is for bass management for your 7 speaker channels.

So, if you want the LFE channel measure to look flat when all is said and done then the MiniDSP filters you generate must be based off the ch4 LFE measure.

The reason LFE channel is not measuring flat at the moment is the filters are based off the ch3 no CC 200Hz crossover measure. That measure does not factor in the AVR's LPF for LFE.


Great explanation. So I understand that for the goal of having a flat response from 20hz-80hz, taking initial measurements to base filters off of should have been done with CH4 LFE measure since that's where the LPF is being applied by the AVR.

What I did yesterday is set crossover to 200hz and turn off the center channel. How is this different from channel 4 LFE measure and how does it change the way the built in LPF is applied?

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post #19722 of 20735 Old 08-09-2016, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
I guess if you were nearer to Philly you'd want it to sound like OUR orchestra.
Michael
Two points here:

(1) I'm a transplant so BSO and Cleveland I've heard and appreciated.
(2) Given the horror stories I've heard about the venue "OUR orchestra" is saddled with I've not heard them. But then, given the horror stories about the venue has anyone heard what "OUR orchestra" sounds like?

Academy of Music was nice for Nutcracker...
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post #19723 of 20735 Old 08-09-2016, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
My room creates a pretty big peak between 28-32Hz. Almost everyone said that low the only way to deal with it was PEQ.


This dip was the main reason I got the miniDSP 2x4 HD. Only reason I'm even considering doing a couple more measures in a bit outside of the miniDSP 2x4 HD on channel 4 so I can try to get a set of PEQ filters to really level that out.

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post #19724 of 20735 Old 08-09-2016, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
What I did yesterday is set crossover to 200hz and turn off the center channel. How is this different from channel 4 LFE measure and how does it change the way the built in LPF is applied?
It bypasses the AVR LPF for LFE, whereas ch4 (LFE channel) doesn't

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post #19725 of 20735 Old 08-09-2016, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
It bypasses the AVR LPF for LFE, whereas ch4 (LFE channel) doesn't
I don't understand why you would want to eq a subwoofer after a lpf is applied. Would you not want to make its response as flat as possible before the lpf is applied for a smooth roll off? If my thinking is flawed, I'll change my evil ways.
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post #19726 of 20735 Old 08-09-2016, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
I don't understand why you would want to eq a subwoofer after a lpf is applied. Would you not want to make its response as flat as possible before the lpf is applied for a smooth roll off? If my thinking is flawed, I'll change my evil ways.
I think the thought is this --> If my ultimate goal is to have a flat response from 20hz-80/100hz, followed by a dropoff in the subwoofer LFE channel, creating PEQ filters from a pre-LPF measurement (which is what CC unplugged + 200hz Xover will do) will still result in a somewhat parabolic response (house curve kind of) in LFE due to the AVR's LPF being applied and not having been considered in PEQ filters.

However, if we take the measurement based on a sweep that includes the receivers LPF (Ch4), then we can create PEQ filters that will flatten the 20hz-80/100hz response taking into consideration the LPF on the receiver's side.

@PlasmaPZ80U - did I get that right?

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post #19727 of 20735 Old 08-09-2016, 08:03 PM
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So I took another measurement on channel 4 at -22db at MLP with AVR EQ off. I then created this filter. Thoughts?



Mdat without filter here.
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post #19728 of 20735 Old 08-09-2016, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
I don't understand why you would want to eq a subwoofer after a lpf is applied. Would you not want to make its response as flat as possible before the lpf is applied for a smooth roll off? If my thinking is flawed, I'll change my evil ways.
if you want a flat response in the LFE channel as opposed to a roll off

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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
I think the thought is this --> If my ultimate goal is to have a flat response from 20hz-80/100hz, followed by a dropoff in the subwoofer LFE channel, creating PEQ filters from a pre-LPF measurement (which is what CC unplugged + 200hz Xover will do) will still result in a somewhat parabolic response (house curve kind of) in LFE due to the AVR's LPF being applied and not having been considered in PEQ filters.

However, if we take the measurement based on a sweep that includes the receivers LPF (Ch4), then we can create PEQ filters that will flatten the 20hz-80/100hz response taking into consideration the LPF on the receiver's side.

@PlasmaPZ80U - did I get that right?
pretty much

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post #19729 of 20735 Old 08-09-2016, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
So I took another measurement on channel 4 at -22db at MLP with AVR EQ off. I then created this filter. Thoughts?



Mdat without filter here.
I would go with lower Q filters like this:

Click image for larger version

Name:	Capture 8-9.JPG
Views:	27
Size:	333.8 KB
ID:	1593697
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post #19730 of 20735 Old 08-09-2016, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
if you want a flat response in the LFE channel as opposed to a roll off



pretty much
Sorry guys, you haven't explained why. Here is my position with some"why" thrown in.

Whether your sub is playing the lfe channel or bass crossed to it from your mains is irrelevant. You are still eqing your sub. To test this, run a channel 4 measurement, then cross your mains at 120hz and disconnect the center and measure again on channel 3. The channel 4 measurement will be the same except 10db louder (lfe is normally 10db louder by design)

Your preference ignores the subs response after it starts to roll off. That is fine, it's your equipment. My suggestion to raise the crossover tries to take the subs roll of into account.

Why does it matter?
One of many reasons people struggle with poor integration between their subs and mains is that they ignore ensuring a smooth rolloff of their subs and their mains around the crossover region. Time alignment and phase play a role etc. Without a smooth rolloff from the sub/main it is more difficult to constructively combine the two speakers through the crossover region. When you cross at 80hz or 60hz and you haven't optimised it, you may find yourself wondering why you have no "midbass slam" or needing an mbm etc.

Pete
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post #19731 of 20735 Old 08-09-2016, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
Given the horror stories I've heard about the venue "OUR orchestra" is saddled with I've not heard them. But then, given the horror stories about the venue has anyone heard what "OUR orchestra" sounds like?
The Perelman Theater is actually very nice. And during the summer you should see them at the Mann Music Center.
Now, back to citsur.

Michael

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post #19732 of 20735 Old 08-09-2016, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I would go with lower Q filters like this:

Attachment 1593697
Using this filter, here is my response after running MCACC and then turning EQ on and sweeping. Mdat here.



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ID:	1593881   Click image for larger version

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post #19733 of 20735 Old 08-09-2016, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
Sorry guys, you haven't explained why. Here is my position with some"why" thrown in.

Whether your sub is playing the lfe channel or bass crossed to it from your mains is irrelevant. You are still eqing your sub. To test this, run a channel 4 measurement, then cross your mains at 120hz and disconnect the center and measure again on channel 3. The channel 4 measurement will be the same except 10db louder (lfe is normally 10db louder by design)

Your preference ignores the subs response after it starts to roll off. That is fine, it's your equipment. My suggestion to raise the crossover tries to take the subs roll of into account.

Why does it matter?
One of many reasons people struggle with poor integration between their subs and mains is that they ignore ensuring a smooth rolloff of their subs and their mains around the crossover region. Time alignment and phase play a role etc. Without a smooth rolloff from the sub/main it is more difficult to constructively combine the two speakers through the crossover region. When you cross at 80hz or 60hz and you haven't optimised it, you may find yourself wondering why you have no "midbass slam" or needing an mbm etc.

Pete

According to what we saw though, the channel 4 measurement was not the same as channel 3 with the center unplugged (albeit I had xover at 200hz). Instead the channel 4 sweep with 80hz crossover showed the LPF while the channel 3 run showed a horizontal line (since xover was set to 200hz I think). We initially created PEQ filters to flatten against the channel 3 measurement which then eventually became unflattened once the receiver applied LPF.

Now we created PEQ filters against the 80hz channel 4 run, and they brought the 20-80hz somewhat closer to flat, eliminating the 24hz -38hz peak I had before.

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Projector Screen: Elite VMAX2 Electric — Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44 — Fronts: B&W 684 S1
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post #19734 of 20735 Old 08-10-2016, 06:32 AM
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Realized with the filter Plasma sent last night, during MCACC the subwoofer makes a strange noise it didn't. Usually it's more of just the rumble. Now it has some tone coming through too. Almost positive it's from the PEQ. you can listen here: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AqCwvEUzj5tPoAdrRk7bSaypDPOg

My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
Plasma 50" TV: Samsung PN50C8000 — DLP Projector: Optoma GT1080
Projector Screen: Elite VMAX2 Electric — Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44 — Fronts: B&W 684 S1
Center: B&W CM Center S2 — Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rythmik FV15HP
Rear Surrounds: Polk Audio T15 — Front Heights: Polk Audio T15
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post #19735 of 20735 Old 08-10-2016, 06:54 AM
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Sorry to blow up the thread. Now not only does the sub make that noise with PEQ, but it also does so during manual test tones when plugged directly into AVR. You can hear that here: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AqCwvEUzj5tPoAipLXuNrERK0ou8

My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
Plasma 50" TV: Samsung PN50C8000 — DLP Projector: Optoma GT1080
Projector Screen: Elite VMAX2 Electric — Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44 — Fronts: B&W 684 S1
Center: B&W CM Center S2 — Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rythmik FV15HP
Rear Surrounds: Polk Audio T15 — Front Heights: Polk Audio T15
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post #19736 of 20735 Old 08-10-2016, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Realized with the filter Plasma sent last night, during MCACC the subwoofer makes a strange noise it didn't. Usually it's more of just the rumble. Now it has some tone coming through too. Almost positive it's from the PEQ. you can listen here: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AqCwvEUzj5tPoAdrRk7bSaypDPOg
Do you hear that sound any other time?
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post #19737 of 20735 Old 08-10-2016, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Sorry to blow cup the thread. Now not only does the sub make that noise with PEQ, but it also does so during manual test tones when plugged directly into AVR. You can hear that here: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AqCwvEUzj5tPoAipLXuNrERK0ou8
I would remove the filters then. Not sure why this is happening as the filters I generated were low Q and cut only.

Can you go back to the previous filters with the roll off and see if the strange sounds go away?
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post #19738 of 20735 Old 08-10-2016, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Sorry to blow up the thread. Now not only does the sub make that noise with PEQ, but it also does so during manual test tones when plugged directly into AVR. You can hear that here: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AqCwvEUzj5tPoAipLXuNrERK0ou8
I don't hear a "tone", I hear a "scratchiness", unless that's just you making noise with the mic. If you are talking about the scratchiness, that sounds like something mechanical associated with the sub's cone movement. It is unlikely that PEQ would be directly causing the noise, other than perhaps the sub's response is now exacerbating a mechanical issue.
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post #19739 of 20735 Old 08-10-2016, 07:14 AM
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Only thing I can think of is that having things extend so high with the LFE input especially on this sub is creating noise due to the extra bandwidth. Which is why the filters with the roll off might be mitigating this.

It's one of the reasons I had to use the Line In input instead. The Line In applies an LPF in the sub's itself, which might be why I prefer leaving things flat in MiniDSP and REW.
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post #19740 of 20735 Old 08-10-2016, 07:42 AM
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I experimented a bit. First I put on a scene I'm familiar with using the filter from last night, turns out the bass was almost non-existent and the system was extremely bright. So I loaded the filters plasma sent from a couple nights ago for MLP only and reran MCACC. That sound completely went away and the bass is back. So the response is back to this and I think this is how I'll leave it for a while.


My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
Plasma 50" TV: Samsung PN50C8000 — DLP Projector: Optoma GT1080
Projector Screen: Elite VMAX2 Electric — Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44 — Fronts: B&W 684 S1
Center: B&W CM Center S2 — Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rythmik FV15HP
Rear Surrounds: Polk Audio T15 — Front Heights: Polk Audio T15
citsur86 is online now  
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