Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 661 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #19801 of 22855 Old 08-11-2016, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
If the target level is set low enough (either by REW EQ tool or manually) and then enough dB is cut across the sub's operating range (like with tall, wide peaks) and then obviously MCACC is going to have to crank up the sw trim (if the sw gain was not increased by the relevant amount before running MCACC).

If this has never happened to you it probably means you only did minor cuts and boosts that didn't change the overall signal level.

And I believe that the pink noise used to set sw trim is typically limited from 30Hz to 80Hz. So, if a lot is cut within that frequency range than the overall level must be raised to compensate.
well sure, if you use PEQ instead of managing gain structure then it means you have to compensate later on. This is suboptimal. This isn't what he said though, he said he used it to cut a single large peak. This does not affect overall level as you're cutting to impact a particular mode.

anyway it basically suggests a suboptimal use of EQ and then a subsequent workaround (that then adds its own problems).
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post #19802 of 22855 Old 08-11-2016, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
I probably didn't explain fully. Originally I used PEQ to flatten a large peak I had between roughly 25-35hz using the LFE input. Once I had these filters in place and ran my AVR's EQ (MCACC), I found in order to get the subwoofer to EQ to -6db (which is the recommendation for Rythmik subwoofers), I had to turn the subwoofers gain knob all the way up. This was because I had to subtract so much db using PEQ to tame that peak. Turning the volume knob all the way up to get to -6db in MCACC EQ on the AVR undesirable because it makes a light humming sound when not being used. Using the Line In on the subwoofer input inherently brings with it a +6db gain. However, it also enables LPF/crossover on the subwoofer itself. Because of that, I turn the knobs on the subwoofer all the way to their lowest setting for delay/phase to 0, highest for Crossover to 120Hz, and lowest LPF slope to 12. With those settings on, the effects are minimal, other than limiting range to 120hz instead of 300hz. That's fine though as all of my other speakers play above 80hz (and lower), and I set the AVR crossover to 80hz.

So short story - I'm using Line In not because I want the sub to manage those settings, (in fact I don't), but rather to get an extra 6db gain. The sub is now +/-5db flat from 20-100hz with its volume knob around 2 o'clock.
I think 120 Hz LPF might be a bit of a mistake, at least in terms of consistency and flexibility of tweaking.
I would set subs LPF to maximum, or turn it off if thats even possible. That way, your subs response gets EQ across whole range and then, depending on your needs (for best response) you can adjust crossover + slope wherever you want.
The way you have it now, you have crossover set by AVR with 12/24 slope and additional 120 Hz LPF with 12dB slope which is technically fine...as long as you don't turn it off.
Also, I don't really like the looks of that 60-100 Hz area...even with 1/6 smoothing

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post #19803 of 22855 Old 08-11-2016, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
That's because a flatter response vs. one that drops as the frequency increases will sound different.

I personally like a flat response and house curves sound wrong to me. But if you want that kind of sloping response than a house curve can do it.

Though the first thing to try is running the sub 3-6dB hot. Just don't run the MV too high though since running things hot makes the sub reach its limits sooner in terms of the MV.

For now, I would put REW away and just enjoy things... especially because once you get used to a flat response you may not even want a house curve.
Sounds like a plan. My wife is about done with my fiddling lol. I'm gonna leave it as is for a bit (for real this time), and possibly add a house curve (believe I can do this through the miniDSP 2x4 HD plugin) in a few weeks to try it out. Thanks for sticking with me and helping out so much throughout the process!
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Remember as well that human hearing is not flat to low Hz. It gets less and less sensitive the lower it goes.


Interesting you say that because I was learning about house curves a bit by reading an article just now, and that's kind of the premise. Measured response vs perceived response start diverging at lower frequencies. So just because it looks flat on the REW response graph, doesn't necessarily mean that's how I will hear it, in my room. Emphasis on I and my room. Seems this is why house curves are popular. It gives the listener, for example, the perception that playback of a 30hz frequency is the same volume as a 100hz, even though a response measure might show it as having the 30hz frequency at a much higher volume. I'll read more about this tomorrow. But I would like to at least watch a handful of movies with a measured flat response before adding a room curve.
Just a heads up, applying a house curve on top of the existing PEQ filters is like boosting EQ (or even more cutting EQ depending on your approach)... the best and most efficient way I've found would be to remove all current PEQ/filtering/processing in the MiniDSP and use the house curve feature in REW to make the target line the shape of the house curve you want. That will give you one set of PEQ filters that makes you sub fit the desired house curve as smoothly as possible.

FYI, I personally have played with house curves to no end and ultimately preferred a flat response in the LFE channel every time (but with the Line In inputs, which filter out everything above 100Hz anyhow... so, flat from 19Hz to 100Hz).

I run my sub 6-7dB hot and interestingly YPAO does that for me.

(I didn't even know it did until I took some full range measures of the LCRs right after running YPAO.)
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post #19804 of 22855 Old 08-11-2016, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
I probably didn't explain fully. Originally I used PEQ to flatten a large peak I had between roughly 25-35hz using the LFE input. Once I had these filters in place and ran my AVR's EQ (MCACC), I found in order to get the subwoofer to EQ to -6db (which is the recommendation for Rythmik subwoofers), I had to turn the subwoofers gain knob all the way up. This was because I had to subtract so much db using PEQ to tame that peak. Turning the volume knob all the way up to get to -6db in MCACC EQ on the AVR undesirable because it makes a light humming sound when not being used. Using the Line In on the subwoofer input inherently brings with it a +6db gain. However, it also enables LPF/crossover on the subwoofer itself. Because of that, I turn the knobs on the subwoofer all the way to their lowest setting for delay/phase to 0, highest for Crossover to 120Hz, and lowest LPF slope to 12. With those settings on, the effects are minimal, other than limiting range to 120hz instead of 300hz. That's fine though as all of my other speakers play above 80hz (and lower), and I set the AVR crossover to 80hz.

So short story - I'm using Line In not because I want the sub to manage those settings, (in fact I don't), but rather to get an extra 6db gain. The sub is now +/-5db flat from 20-100hz with its volume knob around 2 o'clock.
I think 120 Hz LPF might be a bit of a mistake, at least in terms of consistency and flexibility of tweaking.
I would set subs LPF to maximum, or turn it off if thats even possible. That way, your subs response gets EQ across whole range and then, depending on your needs (for best response) you can adjust crossover + slope wherever you want.
The way you have it now, you have crossover set by AVR with 12/24 slope and additional 120 Hz LPF with 12dB slope which is technically fine...as long as you don't turn it off.
Also, I don't really like the looks of that 60-100 Hz area...even with 1/6 smoothing

120Hz is the max LPF frequency on the sub controls as is 12dB slope... these are the recommended Line In setting for AVR use by Rythmik.



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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
If the target level is set low enough (either by REW EQ tool or manually) and then enough dB is cut across the sub's operating range (like with tall, wide peaks) and then obviously MCACC is going to have to crank up the sw trim (if the sw gain was not increased by the relevant amount before running MCACC).

If this has never happened to you it probably means you only did minor cuts and boosts that didn't change the overall signal level.

And I believe that the pink noise used to set sw trim is typically limited from 30Hz to 80Hz. So, if a lot is cut within that frequency range than the overall level must be raised to compensate.
well sure, if you use PEQ instead of managing gain structure then it means you have to compensate later on. This is suboptimal. This isn't what he said though, he said he used it to cut a single large peak. This does not affect overall level as you're cutting to impact a particular mode.

anyway it basically suggests a suboptimal use of EQ and then a subsequent workaround (that then adds its own problems).
How does one manage gain structure in this case? And I do believe he used 4 filters which cuts other peaks too.

What is the ideal approach?
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post #19805 of 22855 Old 08-11-2016, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
If the target level is set low enough (either by REW EQ tool or manually) and then enough dB is cut across the sub's operating range (like with tall, wide peaks) and then obviously MCACC is going to have to crank up the sw trim (if the sw gain was not increased by the relevant amount before running MCACC).

If this has never happened to you it probably means you only did minor cuts and boosts that didn't change the overall signal level.

And I believe that the pink noise used to set sw trim is typically limited from 30Hz to 80Hz. So, if a lot is cut within that frequency range than the overall level must be raised to compensate.
Of course you have to apply make-up gain after cutting but the OP seems to loose massive amounts of gain which usually points to misuse of EQ. If MCACC is run why use PEQ anyway in this case?

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post #19806 of 22855 Old 08-11-2016, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Of course you have to apply make-up gain after cutting but the OP seems to loose massive amounts of gain which usually points to misuse of EQ. If MCACC is run why use PEQ anyway in this case?
His AVR does no EQ to the sub, just speakers channels (down to 60Hz or so, I think). Of course, he can set a higher target level and cut a lot less. I just wonder if the response will be nearly as flat.

Current Setup REW measures

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings

Samsung UN46EH6030; Yamaha HTR-3066, SVS Prime Bookshelf Mains and Prime Center, Cambridge S20 Surrounds, Rythmik LV12R; PS4 Slim, Xbox One, Xfinity X1 (CI CXD01ANI)
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post #19807 of 22855 Old 08-11-2016, 07:46 AM
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Like I said, it's a pretty small issue really.

I'd think that moving the speakers forward or backward would make the biggest difference in FR, unless you speakers are close to either the right of left wall.

Getting bass traps of sufficient thickness to effect those frequencies (50-100hz) can be expensive and obtrusive. As long as your willing to make those sacrifices, it can be done.

Make sure to ask for advice on treatments before throwing something up. There are guys here that know a whole lot more than I do about it.

Thanks.

Yes, having had a quick look a panel needs to be quite thick to absorb below 125Hz and ridiculously thick to absorb down to 50hz.
So I'll have to pass on that idea, I'll try changing the position of that left speaker a bit to see if that helps.

However in previous posts both Jerry and 3ll3dood mentioned that my data showed a lot of evidence of reflections and if that's down to frequencies above 125hz then I can treat those quite simply and in a reasonably cost effective manner. I don't know how to interpret that data myself.

Neither Austin nor 3ll3dood have commented on my new data. I'm assuming my post got 'lost' as the thread has been quite busy recently. Or they've just given up on me...

Anyway, I'll try knocking on their doors again.

Anyway
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post #19808 of 22855 Old 08-11-2016, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
120Hz is the max LPF frequency on the sub controls as is 12dB slope... these are the recommended Line In setting for AVR use by Rythmik.




How does one manage gain structure in this case? And I do believe he used 4 filters which cuts other peaks too.

What is the ideal approach?
My goal was to get as flat an LFE response as possible from 20-100hz and I think I did that decently =/-5db - Following is with 1/12 smoothing:



I did mispeak as I am using 4 filters as you can see below, causing MCACC to only give me -6db EQ with sub volume knob turned all the way up.

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My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!My Frequency ResponsesDialing in Rythmik SubsGetting Started with REW
TV:Samsung PN50C8000——Projector:Optoma GT1080——Screen:Elite VMAX2 Electric——AVR:VSX-44——Fronts:B&W 684 S1
Center:B&W CM Center S2——Surrounds:B&W 685 S1——Subs:2xRythmik FV15HP——Rear Surrounds & Front Height:Polk T15
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post #19809 of 22855 Old 08-11-2016, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
His AVR does no EQ to the sub, just speakers channels (down to 60Hz or so, I think). Of course, he can set a higher target level and cut a lot less. I just wonder if the response will be nearly as flat.
Correct.. This is what I tried before buying the miniDSP 2x4 HD and the best my AVR EQ did still left me with a fairly massive peak and unflattened response. You can see that here:

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My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!My Frequency ResponsesDialing in Rythmik SubsGetting Started with REW
TV:Samsung PN50C8000——Projector:Optoma GT1080——Screen:Elite VMAX2 Electric——AVR:VSX-44——Fronts:B&W 684 S1
Center:B&W CM Center S2——Surrounds:B&W 685 S1——Subs:2xRythmik FV15HP——Rear Surrounds & Front Height:Polk T15
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post #19810 of 22855 Old 08-11-2016, 07:50 AM
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Hi

I've been fiddling with dirac and the sub distance and I've gone from the first graph to the second. I'm sure I've probably cocked it up and made it worse but would be grateful for your input.

I haven't listened to it yet.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k4wzfvhiyy...7.1m.mdat?dl=0


Jerry and3ll3dood

Could you be kind enough to look at my new data please? I've tweaked the dirac curve and adjusted the sub distance.

Thanks very much.
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post #19811 of 22855 Old 08-11-2016, 07:57 AM
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I can think of two possible workarounds... basing PEQ filters on ch3 measurement with 200Hz x-over and cc unplugged AND/OR set target level higher and cut less overall.

The first suggestion is for bypassing the AVR's LPF for LFE (which is non-adjustable/defeat-able), which should involve less cutting as the pre-PEQ response is flatter to begin with and also because it will make LFE channel after PEQ measure almost like a house curve, which is what citsur wants anyhow.

The second suggestion is simply for cutting less and needing less input gain to compensate.

Current Setup REW measures

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings

Samsung UN46EH6030; Yamaha HTR-3066, SVS Prime Bookshelf Mains and Prime Center, Cambridge S20 Surrounds, Rythmik LV12R; PS4 Slim, Xbox One, Xfinity X1 (CI CXD01ANI)
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post #19812 of 22855 Old 08-11-2016, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I can think of two possible workarounds... basing PEQ filters on ch3 measurement with 200Hz x-over and cc unplugged AND/OR set target level higher and cut less overall.

The first suggestion is for bypassing the AVR's LPF for LFE (which is non-adjustable/defeat-able), which should involve less cutting as the pre-PEQ response is flatter to begin with and also because it will make LFE channel after PEQ measure almost like a house curve, which is what citsur wants anyhow.

The second suggestion is simply for cutting less and needing less input gain to compensate.
I may very well go back to a house curve in a couple of weeks, but like you said, I want to give my current semi flat response a go for a bit before I go getting all crazy and undoing all the work we've done. If I do that, I likely will remeasure without PEQ Channel 4 and see if we can't create a filter that give's me a house curve with a response that is flat to it.
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My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!My Frequency ResponsesDialing in Rythmik SubsGetting Started with REW
TV:Samsung PN50C8000——Projector:Optoma GT1080——Screen:Elite VMAX2 Electric——AVR:VSX-44——Fronts:B&W 684 S1
Center:B&W CM Center S2——Surrounds:B&W 685 S1——Subs:2xRythmik FV15HP——Rear Surrounds & Front Height:Polk T15
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post #19813 of 22855 Old 08-11-2016, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
His AVR does no EQ to the sub, just speakers channels (down to 60Hz or so, I think). Of course, he can set a higher target level and cut a lot less. I just wonder if the response will be nearly as flat.
Just because the response looks flat doesn't mean it is better. You have to look at (excess) group delay at multiple points within the listening area. You also have to keep an eye on distortion.

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Last edited by markus767; 08-11-2016 at 08:12 AM.
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Correct.. This is what I tried before buying the miniDSP 2x4 HD and the best my AVR EQ did still left me with a fairly massive peak and unflattened response. You can see that here:

that is a massive peak in terms of dB and Q... so, it stands to reason a lot of cutting is needed to get it down to the same level as the rest of the response... I should know with my sub measuring like this:

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Current Setup REW measures

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings

Samsung UN46EH6030; Yamaha HTR-3066, SVS Prime Bookshelf Mains and Prime Center, Cambridge S20 Surrounds, Rythmik LV12R; PS4 Slim, Xbox One, Xfinity X1 (CI CXD01ANI)
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Just because the response looks flat doesn't mean it is better. You have to look at excess group delay at multiple points within the listening area. You also have to keep an eye on distortion.
I'm not familiar with those terms except for distortion. Are you basically saying that one must check that the post PEQ response is not just good in the sweet spot but 6-12 inches left/right/front/back (aka around the listening area)?

And for distortion check that with compression sweeps, there are no unexpected areas where distortion is occurring too soon and/or too aggressively vs. no PEQ filters?

Current Setup REW measures

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings

Samsung UN46EH6030; Yamaha HTR-3066, SVS Prime Bookshelf Mains and Prime Center, Cambridge S20 Surrounds, Rythmik LV12R; PS4 Slim, Xbox One, Xfinity X1 (CI CXD01ANI)
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post #19816 of 22855 Old 08-11-2016, 08:14 AM
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Yes and yes.

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Yes and yes.
glad I understood that

Current Setup REW measures

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post #19818 of 22855 Old 08-11-2016, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
that is a massive peak in terms of dB and Q... so, it stands to reason a lot of cutting is needed to get it down to the same level as the rest of the response... I should know with my sub measuring like this:

[...]
That's actually multiple peaks. The right course of action is to determine which modes are involved and if the response is minimum phase at multiple positions. EQ can't fix non-minimum phase effects.

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post #19819 of 22855 Old 08-11-2016, 08:49 AM
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That's actually multiple peaks. The right course of action is to determine which modes are involved and if the response is minimum phase at multiple positions. EQ can't fix non-minimum phase effects.
I am also trying to wrap my head around this.

I'm sure it's been posted before, but can you describe the procedure for determining if the effect is minimum phase or not?

Also, if citsur's peaks are indeed non-minimum phase, why is it that they appear to be fixed by PEQ (the response is flatter)?
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
that is a massive peak in terms of dB and Q... so, it stands to reason a lot of cutting is needed to get it down to the same level as the rest of the response...
it's not that big, 10dB at most but mostly more like 6-7dB. It feels a bit "you call that a knife" to mention it but my main mode is ~22dB high The filters listed seem much too big to deal with that, just need to play with the shape of the target curve and level a bit to get a more sympathetic set of filters
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post #19821 of 22855 Old 08-11-2016, 08:57 AM
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Well, I sent him 2 filters and he added 2 more, so I don't know if that anything to do with it.
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that is a massive peak in terms of dB and Q... so, it stands to reason a lot of cutting is needed to get it down to the same level as the rest of the response... I should know with my sub measuring like this:

[...]
That's actually multiple peaks. The right course of action is to determine which modes are involved and if the response is minimum phase at multiple positions. EQ can't fix non-minimum phase effects.
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
That's actually multiple peaks. The right course of action is to determine which modes are involved and if the response is minimum phase at multiple positions. EQ can't fix non-minimum phase effects.
I am also trying to wrap my head around this.

I'm sure it's been posted before, but can you describe the procedure for determining if the effect is minimum phase or not?

Also, if citsur's peaks are indeed non-minimum phase, why is it that they appear to be fixed by PEQ (the response is flatter)?
I think he already checked those things as another user told him to.

I think it has more to do with a learning curve that comes with doing sub EQ outside of Audyssey type solutions.
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post #19823 of 22855 Old 08-11-2016, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
What is the ideal approach?
it boils down to;

- optimise the gain structure down your signal chain so you're not going up and down repeatedly (e.g. go in hot into an EQ device then cut loads and then have to boost it back up downstream)
- design a set of filters that are sympathetic to your initial response aka don't overuse EQ
- understand the shape of the final filter response with respect to your gain structure and your listening levels, this lets you know whether it's safe to raise the level a bit (e.g. balance boosts and cuts as appropriate)
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post #19824 of 22855 Old 08-11-2016, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I am also trying to wrap my head around this.



I'm sure it's been posted before, but can you describe the procedure for determining if the effect is minimum phase or not?



Also, if citsur's peaks are indeed non-minimum phase, why is it that they appear to be fixed by PEQ (the response is flatter)?


+1 interested for an answer. No idea what minimum phase peaks are or what it means. An explanation would be greatly appreciated.

My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!My Frequency ResponsesDialing in Rythmik SubsGetting Started with REW
TV:Samsung PN50C8000——Projector:Optoma GT1080——Screen:Elite VMAX2 Electric——AVR:VSX-44——Fronts:B&W 684 S1
Center:B&W CM Center S2——Surrounds:B&W 685 S1——Subs:2xRythmik FV15HP——Rear Surrounds & Front Height:Polk T15
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post #19825 of 22855 Old 08-11-2016, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
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I'm sure it's been posted before, but can you describe the procedure for determining if the effect is minimum phase or not?
Please see http://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/hel...imumphase.html

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #19826 of 22855 Old 08-11-2016, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
+1 interested for an answer. No idea what minimum phase peaks are or what it means. An explanation would be greatly appreciated.
good explanation in laymans terms - http://www.regonaudio.com/Digital%20...0Part%20I.html
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post #19827 of 22855 Old 08-11-2016, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
good explanation in laymans terms - http://www.regonaudio.com/Digital%20...0Part%20I.html
So, if I were to give you this response which is NoEQ and NoPEQ at all, and tell you I wanted a flat response from 20-100hz, what would be you're recommendation?


My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!My Frequency ResponsesDialing in Rythmik SubsGetting Started with REW
TV:Samsung PN50C8000——Projector:Optoma GT1080——Screen:Elite VMAX2 Electric——AVR:VSX-44——Fronts:B&W 684 S1
Center:B&W CM Center S2——Surrounds:B&W 685 S1——Subs:2xRythmik FV15HP——Rear Surrounds & Front Height:Polk T15
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post #19828 of 22855 Old 08-11-2016, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
So, if I were to give you this response which is NoEQ and NoPEQ at all, and tell you I wanted a flat response from 20-100hz, what would be you're recommendation?

Get a sub that can comfortably do 20Hz because, based on that graph, yours either can't or is in a position that won't let it

If your sub is capable then move it or you
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post #19829 of 22855 Old 08-11-2016, 10:06 AM
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Get a sub that can comfortably do 20Hz because, based on that graph, yours either can't or is in a position that won't let it

If your sub is capable then move it or you
Sorry I will rephrase. A flat response from say 25-30hz to 100hz. Then what would your advice be. I cannot move it as it is in my living room and basically in the only place my wife will allow it lol. Also have a 1 year old so need it inaccessible to him.

My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!My Frequency ResponsesDialing in Rythmik SubsGetting Started with REW
TV:Samsung PN50C8000——Projector:Optoma GT1080——Screen:Elite VMAX2 Electric——AVR:VSX-44——Fronts:B&W 684 S1
Center:B&W CM Center S2——Surrounds:B&W 685 S1——Subs:2xRythmik FV15HP——Rear Surrounds & Front Height:Polk T15
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post #19830 of 22855 Old 08-11-2016, 10:17 AM
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sub is capable of 19Hz but the room may not care

Current Setup REW measures

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings

Samsung UN46EH6030; Yamaha HTR-3066, SVS Prime Bookshelf Mains and Prime Center, Cambridge S20 Surrounds, Rythmik LV12R; PS4 Slim, Xbox One, Xfinity X1 (CI CXD01ANI)
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