Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 664 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #19891 of 20159 Old 08-12-2016, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indus1 View Post
Great stuff, that's helped immensely to focus my approach. The fact that the issue is within the spectral region makes life easier for me as I can get away with much thinner treatment panels.

There are even foam acoustic tiles that absorb well at 300hz and above.

The reflection source distance calculations are also very interesting. They would imply that the rear wall isn't a big culprit and could be ignored in my first round of treatments.

Thanks very much, your help is greatly appreciated.
Regarding where to place treatments, don't rule anything out. One approach:

- Purchase several broadband 24x48 panels that you know are effective (I use these http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/...coustic-panel/)

- Using the "blocking technique" (explained in the Guide), identify the general direction of the reflection.

- Temporarily hang one of the broadband panels where you thing the reflection source might be.

- Take a fresh REW measurement and observe the effect the panel has.

- Repeat the process until you have identified the source of each of the worst reflections, and then treat those spots.

This is not a simple process. It takes time and effort, and be prepared to be frustrated. Don't ignore the ceiling as a possible reflection source, and look to furniture as a potential source as well.

And BTW, I am not a fan of foam treatments at all.
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post #19892 of 20159 Old 08-12-2016, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
This?

Got permission to do this one! Going to test it tonight - wondering if I should go back to LFE or keep Line In. I think considering how close to MLP it is, I am probably going to be fine with LFE. Will need to run from there across room, so will probably need a 20ft+ RCA cable.

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post #19893 of 20159 Old 08-12-2016, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by indus1 View Post
Great stuff, that's helped immensely to focus my approach. The fact that the issue is within the spectral region makes life easier for me as I can get away with much thinner treatment panels.

There are even foam acoustic tiles that absorb well at 300hz and above.

The reflection source distance calculations are also very interesting. They would imply that the rear wall isn't a big culprit and could be ignored in my first round of treatments.

Thanks very much, your help is greatly appreciated.
The "spectral" region might be easier to control but in my opinion most rooms don't need any treatments in that area (unless there are strong reflections from the same direction as the direct sound). The modal region and the transition region are way more important albeit much harder to control.
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post #19894 of 20159 Old 08-12-2016, 08:42 AM
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I decided to give the LPF built into the REW EQ tool target line a try (90Hz/12dB per octave to match 90Hz global crossover):





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This is with Line In and sub's LPF set to max frequency (120Hz) and 12dB per octave... sounds very punchy and smooth with a couple movies watched so far.

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post #19895 of 20159 Old 08-12-2016, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I decided to give the LPF built into the REW EQ tool target line a try (90Hz/12dB per octave to match 90Hz global crossover):





Attachment 1599129

Attachment 1599137

This is with Line In and sub's LPF set to max frequency (120Hz) and 12dB per octave... sounds very punchy and smooth with a couple movies watched so far.
This is with a single LV12R? If so, that's awesome! My response is so jacked up - my room must be horrible for LFE. Maybe it'll look/sound better when I move it.
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post #19896 of 20159 Old 08-12-2016, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Got permission to do this one! Going to test it tonight - wondering if I should go back to LFE or keep Line In. I think considering how close to MLP it is, I am probably going to be fine with LFE. Will need to run from there across room, so will probably need a 20ft+ RCA cable.
Measure before going to the store!


Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
This is with a single LV12R? If so, that's awesome! My response is so jacked up - my room must be horrible for LFE. Maybe it'll look/sound better when I move it.
Yeah, well....Plasma's been working on his for over a year, so......
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post #19897 of 20159 Old 08-12-2016, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
This is with a single LV12R? If so, that's awesome! My response is so jacked up - my room must be horrible for LFE. Maybe it'll look/sound better when I move it.
My room actually has terrible acoustics (12' by 12' by 8' high; square room)... but a left midwall placement (left of MLP) plus a lot of cutting EQ gets it flat... other placement options are much worse with dips remaining and not much output past 80Hz or so.

I also discovered that YPAO sets my trims around zero for speakers even though that makes me reach reference level at -10MV instead of 0MV. So, I subtracted the same amount from all trims post YPAO to that the lowest speaker trim is -10.0dB (the lowest I can go on my Yamaha AVR)... this not only gets 0MV to be 1-2dB within reference level but it also allows me to keep the sw gain knob only a few clicks above 50%... if I had an Audyssey based AVR, this would happen automatically.
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
The "spectral" region might be easier to control but in my opinion most rooms don't need any treatments in that area (unless there are strong reflections from the same direction as the direct sound). The modal region and the transition region are way more important albeit much harder to control.
Just so we are all on the same page, Markus, please define what you consider the modal, transition, and spectral frequency ranges.
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post #19899 of 20159 Old 08-12-2016, 09:10 AM
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Just so we are all on the same page, Markus, please define what you consider the modal, transition, and spectral frequency ranges.
See Toole "Sound Reproduction":

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post #19900 of 20159 Old 08-12-2016, 09:19 AM
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Does the movement of transition frequency mean that with very small rooms the modal region can exceed commonly used 300Hz upper limit for bass measures?
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post #19901 of 20159 Old 08-12-2016, 09:46 AM
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The room would need to be very small.

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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Measure before going to the store!

Yeah, well....Plasma's been working on his for over a year, so......
Can't measure because I need a long enough RCA to go to where I want to put it. Sorry just saw this haha.

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post #19903 of 20159 Old 08-12-2016, 10:27 AM
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Can't measure because I need a long enough RCA to go to where I want to put it. Sorry just saw this haha.
I meant measure for the length of cable.

Funny how now when you hear the word "measure" you now immediately think of REW. You are deep down the rabbit hole my friend.
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post #19904 of 20159 Old 08-12-2016, 10:29 AM
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I meant measure for the length of cable.
Ah - I brainballed it at 25ft - but bought another 8ft and a connector just in case which I will return if I don't need it. Going down to basement, across ceiling to electronics cabinet. Shouldn't be more than 33ft.

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post #19905 of 20159 Old 08-12-2016, 10:51 AM
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Ah - I brainballed it at 25ft - but bought another 8ft and a connector just in case which I will return if I don't need it. Going down to basement, across ceiling to electronics cabinet. Shouldn't be more than 33ft.
Since you didn't measure, it is almost certainly guaranteed that it will be 33.5'.
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Can't measure because I need a long enough RCA to go to where I want to put it. Sorry just saw this haha.
I meant measure for the length of cable.

Funny how now when you hear the word "measure" you now immediately think of REW. You are deep down the rabbit hole my friend.
Lol, aren't we all.
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The room would need to be very small.
Smaller than 1100 cubic feet?
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post #19908 of 20159 Old 08-12-2016, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
My room actually has terrible acoustics (12' by 12' by 8' high; square room)... but a left midwall placement (left of MLP) plus a lot of cutting EQ gets it flat... other placement options are much worse with dips remaining and not much output past 80Hz or so.

I also discovered that YPAO sets my trims around zero for speakers even though that makes me reach reference level at -10MV instead of 0MV. So, I subtracted the same amount from all trims post YPAO to that the lowest speaker trim is -10.0dB (the lowest I can go on my Yamaha AVR)... this not only gets 0MV to be 1-2dB within reference level but it also allows me to keep the sw gain knob only a few clicks above 50%... if I had an Audyssey based AVR, this would happen automatically.
Is that a calibration error or YPAO sets reference to be -10 on purpose?

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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
My room actually has terrible acoustics (12' by 12' by 8' high; square room)... but a left midwall placement (left of MLP) plus a lot of cutting EQ gets it flat... other placement options are much worse with dips remaining and not much output past 80Hz or so.

I also discovered that YPAO sets my trims around zero for speakers even though that makes me reach reference level at -10MV instead of 0MV. So, I subtracted the same amount from all trims post YPAO to that the lowest speaker trim is -10.0dB (the lowest I can go on my Yamaha AVR)... this not only gets 0MV to be 1-2dB within reference level but it also allows me to keep the sw gain knob only a few clicks above 50%... if I had an Audyssey based AVR, this would happen automatically.
Is that a calibration error or YPAO sets reference to be -10 on purpose?
YPAO is not designed to set 0MV as reference. It just leaves the front left speaker trim at 0.0dB and matches everything to it. The only time it sets front left speaker to something else is if the other trim(s) have more than a 10dB difference and more adjustment range is needed.
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YPAO is not designed to set 0MV as reference. It just leaves the front left speaker trim at 0.0dB and matches everything to it. The only time it sets front left speaker to something else is if the other trim(s) have more than a 10dB difference and more adjustment range is needed.
Do you know, is this how YPAO behaves on all Yamaha AVRs? If so, that is really dumb...and I've been telling Yamaha owners that if they run YPAO they will be calibrated for Reference.
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
YPAO is not designed to set 0MV as reference. It just leaves the front left speaker trim at 0.0dB and matches everything to it. The only time it sets front left speaker to something else is if the other trim(s) have more than a 10dB difference and more adjustment range is needed.
Lets just hope that overzealous user doesn't crank it to 0 in situation similar to yours.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
YPAO is not designed to set 0MV as reference. It just leaves the front left speaker trim at 0.0dB and matches everything to it. The only time it sets front left speaker to something else is if the other trim(s) have more than a 10dB difference and more adjustment range is needed.
Do you know, is this how YPAO behaves on all Yamaha AVRs? If so, that is really dumb...and I've been telling Yamaha owners that if they run YPAO they will be calibrated for Reference.
I think it does, but I can only confirm 100% for the RX-[ ]75 family of AVRs and the corresponding models like my HTR-3066 (same as RX-V375).

Imagine a near field setup with Klipsch speakers running YPAO...eek
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I meant measure for the length of cable.



Funny how now when you hear the word "measure" you now immediately think of REW. You are deep down the rabbit hole my friend.


Haha oh man yep. Missed this comment earlier. I thought you meant measure with REW before running the RCA cable into the basement etc. about to start the fun. Moving the LV12R, replacing the Front Heights with the new Polk T15s I purchased today and moving the current front heights to the rear surrounds. I'll say it'll probably be an hour before I'm measuring with the sub in the new location.

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Switcheroo. Stuff on top of sub was just to make a point to wife that it's like another end table. Will begin strictly enforcing no stuff on subwoofer......now lol

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Forgot pictures.




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So I put the new sub in a bunch of different places. Near the dog door, under the surround right, and directly up against the MLP. Best response without PEQ and without EQ was where is is in this picture, in this orientation (front facing back to kitchen).



I tried both with LFE and with Line In, and again Line in seems to give the better response - the sub is all over the place past 100Hz if I use LFE anyways - so best to roll it off at 100Hz. The mdat for the Line In Measurements is here.

Here is what the response loos like after applying PEQ both in LFE only (CH4) and then Sub+CC (CH3) with a 80Hz Xover from AVR.





The PEQ filters being used are:




I did do measurements with LFE input, but the CH3 sweeps were a mess and the crossover poin was really bad. Also was close to maxing volume out again, so it seems line in might be the better choice. That mdat is here.
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post #19917 of 20159 Old 08-12-2016, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Regarding where to place treatments, don't rule anything out. One approach:

- Purchase several broadband 24x48 panels that you know are effective (I use these http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/...coustic-panel/)

- Using the "blocking technique" (explained in the Guide), identify the general direction of the reflection.

- Temporarily hang one of the broadband panels where you thing the reflection source might be.

- Take a fresh REW measurement and observe the effect the panel has.

- Repeat the process until you have identified the source of each of the worst reflections, and then treat those spots.

This is not a simple process. It takes time and effort, and be prepared to be frustrated. Don't ignore the ceiling as a possible reflection source, and look to furniture as a potential source as well.

And BTW, I am not a fan of foam treatments at all.

Thanks very much.

Having now investigated foam panels a bit further you're right not to be a fan. Their absorption coefficients are poor at anything but the highest frequencies.

I'll have a look at GIK.
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post #19918 of 20159 Old 08-12-2016, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
The "spectral" region might be easier to control but in my opinion most rooms don't need any treatments in that area (unless there are strong reflections from the same direction as the direct sound). The modal region and the transition region are way more important albeit much harder to control.

Hi Markus.

Do you think that this is also true in the case of treating first reflection points? In other words do you feel its only usually worth treating them with panels that will tackle the modal frequencies?

Thanks.
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Hi Markus.

Do you think that this is also true in the case of treating first reflection points? In other words do you feel its only usually worth treating them with panels that will tackle the modal frequencies?

Thanks.
Depends on the delay and direction of reflections. If they arrive at the listening position within the first few milliseconds I would try to reduce them. If they are arriving later and preferably from lateral locations I would not as this will add some spaciousness that is lacking in stereo recordings.
Reflections coming from the same location as the direct sound are never helpful. I would always try to reduce them fully.

Absorption effective up to about a few hundred Hz will always improve playback the most. But it's also the hardest thing to do.

Markus

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post #19920 of 20159 Old 08-13-2016, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Depends on the delay and direction of reflections. If they arrive at the listening position within the first few milliseconds I would try to reduce them. If they are arriving later and preferably from lateral locations I would not as this will add some spaciousness that is lacking in stereo recordings.
Reflections coming from the same location as the direct sound are never helpful. I would always try to reduce them fully.

Absorption effective up to about a few hundred Hz will always improve playback the most. But it's also the hardest thing to do.

Thanks Markus

If you look at Jerry's post (19887 on previous page) of my ETC the worst reflections seem to be at 3 milliseconds for one speaker and 5 milliseconds for another (assuming I have interpreted the graph correctly)

Would you consider this to be 'the first few milliseconds'?

When you mention reflections coming from the same direction as the source does this in reality refer to the front wall in a typical set up?

Thanks again
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