Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 667 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #19981 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Are you implying my receiver may be cuffing Low pass filter for LFE at crossover setting frequency?
yes, and taking LFE measurements from min crossover to max crossover would prove it... that would be from 40Hz to 200Hz on most AVRs

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post #19982 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
yes, and taking LFE measurements from min crossover to max crossover would prove it... that would be from 40Hz to 200Hz on most AVRs

Hmmm should I set my global crossover to 120hz then instead of 80hz? That would guarantee I'm not losing anything in the LFE channel, but then my speakers wouldn't be playing anything under 120hz. Since I'm currently using Line In, I would list everything from 100hz to 120hz then.

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post #19983 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Oh I see it now. So stereo content is basically unaffected by LPF on LFE channel. But if I decide to set crossover to say...250, and keep LPF to 120, my subwoofer will still receive all content below 250 Hz from all other speakers. Although rarely would anyone want that.
speaker/sub crossovers and LPF for LFE should remain 100% separate... but with some AVRs like some Pioneer models (apparently some Onkyo models too) there is a bug that makes the setting used for the speaker/sub crossover also apply to the LPF for LFE frequency.

my Yamaha shows zero variation with LFE measures as crossover is changed (as should all AVRs)

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post #19984 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Hmmm should I set my global crossover to 120hz then instead of 80hz? That would guarantee I'm not losing anything in the LFE channel, but then my speakers wouldn't be playing anything under 120hz. Since I'm currently using Line In, I would list everything from 100hz to 120hz then.
you should use what sounds (and *maybe* measures best)... but if your goal is to have LPF for LFE at 120Hz, then your crossover would have to be 120Hz (or very close)

honestly, you should give this a read before you increase the crossover from 80Hz:

"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)

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post #19985 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
yes, and taking LFE measurements from min crossover to max crossover would prove it... that would be from 40Hz to 200Hz on most AVRs


You would be right. Crap. So I would never want my crossover to be under 120hz or I'll be losing possible LFE content. Man this is a stupid design!


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post #19986 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
speaker/sub crossovers and LPF for LFE should remain 100% separate... but with some AVRs like some Pioneer models (apparently some Onkyo models too) there is a bug that makes the setting used for the speaker/sub crossover also apply to the LPF for LFE frequency.

my Yamaha shows zero variation with LFE measures as crossover is changed (as should all AVRs)
Thats if you measure strictly LFE channel? I should try that.

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post #19987 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 11:43 AM
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^read that link as it explains why rolling off the LFE channel at 80Hz might be preferable from a subjective point of view (and because of the nature of 80-120Hz+ LFE channel content in movies)

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post #19988 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Thats if you measure strictly LFE channel? I should try that.
LFE channel and the main crossover setting should be independent... citsur's AVR is more of the exception vs. the rule

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post #19989 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
LFE channel and the main crossover setting should be independent... citsur's AVR is more of the exception vs. the rule


But why would they do something so dumb? Supposed to be "Elite?"

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post #19990 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 11:48 AM
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post #19991 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
But why would they do something so dumb? Supposed to be "Elite?"
honestly, I'm due for a new AVR next holiday season and I was comparing Pioneer vs. Yamaha vs. Denon/Marantz and Pioneer is now off the list and Yamaha probably too because there are things about my current Yamaha I don't like (like 0MV not being reference level after running YPAO)

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post #19992 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
I wonder how much of the lfe channel content in popular movies goes up to 120hz? I would guess not much of it would.
best approach would be to compare LPF for LFE at 80Hz vs. 120Hz with popular movies on the bass thread

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post #19993 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
honestly, I'm due for a new AVR next holiday season and I was comparing Pioneer vs. Yamaha vs. Denon/Marantz and Pioneer is now off the list and Yamaha probably too because there are things about my current Yamaha I don't like (like 0MV not being reference level after running YPAO)


Just read the link. I get what they're saying but ultimately the consensus seems to be that the 80hz LPF of LFE filter makes the bass less punchy and tighter. Unfortunately I like punchier bass, even at the expense of some boominess.

My response still looks decent with a 80hz xover (both normal and 80hz LPF of LFE, likely due to the reasoning at the link you provided. I would want to keep subwoofer set to 12 right ?

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post #19994 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 11:59 AM
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I'm also in the market for a new AVR that supports 9.1 and DTS:X and Atmos. I'll likely avoid Yamaha and Pioneer too.

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post #19995 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
honestly, I'm due for a new AVR next holiday season and I was comparing Pioneer vs. Yamaha vs. Denon/Marantz and Pioneer is now off the list and Yamaha probably too because there are things about my current Yamaha I don't like (like 0MV not being reference level after running YPAO)


Just read the link. I get what they're saying but ultimately the consensus seems to be that the 80hz LPF of LFE filter makes the bass less punchy and tighter. Unfortunately I like punchier bass, even at the expense of some boominess.

My response still looks decent with a 80hz xover (both normal and 80hz LPF of LFE, likely due to the reasoning at the link you provided. I would want to keep subwoofer set to 12 right ?
Yeah, leave the sub at 12dB and 120Hz to avoid adding extra LPFs to all bass the sub handles (bass managed speakers channels and LFE channel).

As for what do with your AVR for know, realize that 80Hz and 120Hz are both choices but you could also split the difference with a 90Hz or 100Hz or 110Hz crossover instead.

Remember that crossovers above 80Hz can potentially localize the sub; for example, even with a 120Hz crossover that has a 24dB per octave LPF on the sub side of things will still have output above 120Hz... that could be a problem
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post #19996 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
I'm also in the market for a new AVR that supports 9.1 and DTS:X and Atmos. I'll likely avoid Yamaha and Pioneer too.
I'm considering a Denon AVR-3300W, which has the best version of Audyssey (MultEQ XT32+Sub EQ HT) and 7.2ch pre-outs (should I ever go with external amplification and Dirac Live)... it is 7.2ch only, however

For me, getting the best version of Audyssey for $1K MSRP is a great deal and I will be running 5.1 channel only. It does have Atmos and DTS: X.

I think the 4200W might be 9.2ch or higher...
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post #19997 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I'm considering a Denon AVR-3300W, which has the best version of Audyssey (MultEQ XT32+Sub EQ HT) and 7.2ch pre-outs (should I ever go with external amplification and Dirac Live)... it is 7.2ch only, however

For me, getting the best version of Audyssey for $1K MSRP is a great deal and I will be running 5.1 channel only. It does have Atmos and DTS: X.

I think the 4200W might be 9.2ch or higher...


I've been eyeing up the Marantz SR6011. Also has the best version of Audyssey and has 9.2. $1,400 new.

The cheapest version of the Denon newer models with 9.2 is the AVR-X6200W which is $2,200 new.

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post #19998 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Yeah, leave the sub at 12dB and 120Hz to avoid adding extra LPFs to all bass the sub handles (bass managed speakers channels and LFE channel).

As for what do with your AVR for know, realize that 80Hz and 120Hz are both choices but you could also split the difference with a 90Hz or 100Hz or 110Hz crossover instead.

Remember that crossovers above 80Hz can potentially localize the sub; for example, even with a 120Hz crossover that has a 24dB per octave LPF on the sub side of things will still have output above 120Hz... that could be a problem

Hmm I'll leave it at 80hz and 120 / 12 on sub. I think it sounds good.

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post #19999 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 02:02 PM
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The AVR-X4200W does 9.1 when adding a 2 channel amp.

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post #20000 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 02:04 PM
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The AVR-X4200W does 9.1 when adding a 2 channel amp.


AVR-X4200W is $1500 new. How much is a separate amp?

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post #20001 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Yeah, leave the sub at 12dB and 120Hz to avoid adding extra LPFs to all bass the sub handles (bass managed speakers channels and LFE channel).

As for what do with your AVR for know, realize that 80Hz and 120Hz are both choices but you could also split the difference with a 90Hz or 100Hz or 110Hz crossover instead.

Remember that crossovers above 80Hz can potentially localize the sub; for example, even with a 120Hz crossover that has a 24dB per octave LPF on the sub side of things will still have output above 120Hz... that could be a problem

Hmm I'll leave it at 80hz and 120 / 12 on sub. I think it sounds good.
Probably what I would do in your situation
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I spent most of the weekend playing with REW & a new UMIK. Feel like I'm going in circles after reading and re-reading the guide. I turned off YPAO completely and this is what I collected. It doesn't seem like manually messing with the AVR PEQ is worthwhile, but I guess whatever low hanging fruit you guys see here is appreciated. I wrong up a bunch of info and then I decided to not post it out of frustration.




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Originally Posted by jimmueller View Post
I spent most of the weekend playing with REW & a new UMIK. Feel like I'm going in circles after reading and re-reading the guide. I turned off YPAO completely and this is what I collected. It doesn't seem like manually messing with the AVR PEQ is worthwhile, but I guess whatever low hanging fruit you guys see here is appreciated. I wrong up a bunch of info and then I decided to not post it out of frustration.
I don't see why you are frustrated. My observations:

- REW technique looks pretty good
- Measurement levels are too high (107 dB)
- How did you take the noise floor measurement? It seems low.
- “Average” is not a useful measurement.
- Strange peak in bass 40-65Hz--any idea what is causing that?
- Waterfall looks good
- ETC shows a bad reflection at ~7ft for LCR speakers
- In general, the response curves look quite good for not having REQ active. Except for that issue in the low frequencies.
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post #20004 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
- Strange peak in bass 40-65Hz--any idea what is causing that?
I speculate that sub response looks like that because it reached its limits at SPL that high...if we talk about subwoofer in his signature.

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post #20005 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
I speculate that sub response looks like that because it reached its limits at SPL that high...if we talk about subwoofer in his signature.
That could well be a contributing factor. @jimmueller : I recommend a fresh set of measurements at a slightly lower measurement level, say 85dB. Forget measuring the surrounds for now in the interest of simplicity. And providing measurements with room correction turned on would be interesting as well.
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post #20006 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 06:24 PM
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The Polk RM1000W is not a subwoofer. It is a bass 'module' with two 6.5" drivers inside and a 10" passive radiator. Driving it to those low frequencies—at that level—is exceeding the Xmax of the drivers, hence the high distortion.
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post #20007 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by sam_adams View Post
The Polk RM1000W is not a subwoofer. It is a bass 'module' with two 6.5" drivers inside and a 10" passive radiator. Driving it to those low frequencies—at that level—is exceeding the Xmax of the drivers, hence the high distortion.
I didn't look at distortion. Here is the graph:



71% @ 75Hz, 63% @50Hz. 149% @ 30Hz. Definitely stressed out.
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post #20008 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I don't see why you are frustrated. My observations:

- REW technique looks pretty good
- Measurement levels are too high (107 dB)
- How did you take the noise floor measurement? It seems low.
- “Average” is not a useful measurement.
- Strange peak in bass 40-65Hz--any idea what is causing that?
- Waterfall looks good
- ETC shows a bad reflection at ~7ft for LCR speakers
- In general, the response curves look quite good for not having REQ active. Except for that issue in the low frequencies.
I'm frustrated with how wavy the SPL curve is compared to the limited manual PEQ settings, and how the high frequencies are dropping off early even though I'm trying to EQ using 'flat' instead of 'natural'. The Polk RM1000W is part of an old Polk 3-piece RM3000 surround system which came with two small satellites. The satellite surround material disintegrated years ago and I kept the RM1000W in storage. When my Velodyne died with parts no longer available, I put the RM1000W back into service until I decided on a replacement sub. I plan to replace it with a SVS PB-1000 this month.

- How did you take the noise floor measurement? It seems low. [I turned off the power to everything which I could hear; I turned off the breaker for the refrigerator, turned off the thermostat, moved a clock into another room so I didn't have to hear it tick, closed all doors, turned off the projector, closed curtains, etc.]

- Measurement levels are too high (107 dB) [The noise floor was around 40-45, but with the 'normal' things on (A/C randomly kicking on, projector fan noise, refrigerator randomly kicking on, outside noises, etc,) the normal noise floor can be anywhere between 50-60dB depending upon what happens to be running. With a recommendation to have peak volume 40dB over the noise floor, I inferred it to be 40dB over the normal noise floor, not the absolute lowest noise floor. So I set the pink noise measurement (p60 in your guide) to be 55'ish+40=95dB. I didn't intend for it to be above 95dB.]

- Strange peak in bass 40-65Hz--any idea what is causing that? [No idea, suggestions on how to isolate it? May not be worthwhile to chase it with the pending sub change.]

- Waterfall looks good [Guide says waterfall measurements need to be a combo L+R+Sub to check modal, do I not need to worry about that? ]

- ETC shows a bad reflection at ~7ft for LCR speakers [MLP is 9.5' from LCR tweeters, there's nothing directly between MLP and tweeters. The mixed use room is only 13' x 15' x 8'. The center channel speaker is angled down to aim at the MLP, side walls are slightly under 7' from the middle of the C tweeter. Each LR tweeter is ~42" from the side wall. Not sure what's at the end of that 7'.]

So I'll take two more sets of measurements, one with room correction and one without: 85dB pink noise level instead of 95dB, only L/C/R/Sub, right?
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Last edited by jimmueller; 08-14-2016 at 07:52 PM.
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post #20009 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by jimmueller View Post
I'm frustrated with how wavy the SPL curve is compared to the limited manual PEQ settings, and how the high frequencies are dropping off early even though I'm trying to EQ using 'flat' instead of 'natural'. The Polk RM1000W is part of an old Polk 3-piece RM3000 surround system which came with two small satellites. The satellite surround material disintegrated years ago and I kept the RM1000W in storage. When my Velodyne died with parts no longer available, I put the RM1000W back into service until I decided on a replacement sub. I plan to replace it with a SVS PB-1000 this month.
You don't want high frequencies to look flat in REW graph, your want slight rolloff...purely flat sounds way too bright, so by the looks of it its probably fine.

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Originally Posted by jimmueller View Post
- ETC shows a bad reflection at ~7ft for LCR speakers [MLP is 9.5' from LCR tweeters, there's nothing directly between MLP and tweeters. The mixed use room is only 13' x 15' x 8'. The center channel speaker is angled down to aim at the MLP, side walls are slightly under 7' from the middle of the C tweeter. Each LR tweeter is ~42" from the side wall. Not sure what's at the end of that 7'.]

So I'll take two more sets of measurements, one with room correction and one without: 85dB pink noise level instead of 95dB, only L/C/R/Sub, right?
To find the possible causes of reflections you measure a distance from speaker to MLP and then add distance to reflection (in this case 7 feet). Then you take a string of that length, someone should hold (or tie) one side at speaker and other side at MLP and you grab the string around the middle and try to touch all possible wall, ceiling and floor surfaces where string gets nicely tense. All those points are possible culprits for strong early reflection. Then you put acoustic panel at possible reflection point, do the measurement again and see if spike in ETC graph is gone.
Other simple way of finding most likely early reflections is mirror trick.

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post #20010 of 20528 Old 08-14-2016, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jimmueller View Post
I'm frustrated with how wavy the SPL curve is compared to the limited manual PEQ settings, and how the high frequencies are dropping off early even though I'm trying to EQ using 'flat' instead of 'natural'. The Polk RM1000W is part of an old Polk 3-piece RM3000 surround system which came with two small satellites. The satellite surround material disintegrated years ago and I kept the RM1000W in storage. When my Velodyne died with parts no longer available, I put the RM1000W back into service until I decided on a replacement sub. I plan to replace it with a SVS PB-1000 this month.

- How did you take the noise floor measurement? It seems low. [I turned off the power to everything which I could hear; I turned off the breaker for the refrigerator, turned off the thermostat, moved a clock into another room so I didn't have to hear it tick, closed all doors, turned off the projector, closed curtains, etc.]

- Measurement levels are too high (107 dB) [The noise floor was around 40-45, but with the 'normal' things on (A/C randomly kicking on, projector fan noise, refrigerator randomly kicking on, outside noises, etc,) the normal noise floor can be anywhere between 50-60dB depending upon what happens to be running. With a recommendation to have peak volume 40dB over the noise floor, I inferred it to be 40dB over the normal noise floor, not the absolute lowest noise floor. So I set the pink noise measurement (p60 in your guide) to be 55'ish+40=95dB. I didn't intend for it to be above 95dB.]

- Strange peak in bass 40-65Hz--any idea what is causing that? [No idea, suggestions on how to isolate it? May not be worthwhile to chase it with the pending sub change.]

- Waterfall looks good [Guide says waterfall measurements need to be a combo L+R+Sub to check modal, do I not need to worry about that? ]

- ETC shows a bad reflection at ~7ft for LCR speakers [MLP is 9.5' from LCR tweeters, there's nothing directly between MLP and tweeters. The mixed use room is only 13' x 15' x 8'. The center channel speaker is angled down to aim at the MLP, side walls are slightly under 7' from the middle of the C tweeter. Each LR tweeter is ~42" from the side wall. Not sure what's at the end of that 7'.]

So I'll take two more sets of measurements, one with room correction and one without: 85dB pink noise level instead of 95dB, only L/C/R/Sub, right?
I don't think the frequency response above 200Hz is that bad at all. My speakers have a similar HF roll-off as well. Since I can't hear much above 14KHz, I really don't care. Besides, I would expect room correction to smooth out the response curve somewhat, which is why I asked you to post those measurements.

I would not bother with trying to do anything with the low frequencies if you are going to be getting a new sub. Based on the measuremetns and distortion, a new sub will be a good investment.

Page 50 in the REW Guide has a discussion on how to measure the noise floor. I would not be too concerned. If your room is like most, the noise floor is 45-55dB, so I would measure around 85-90dB, which is plenty high enough.
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