Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 67 - AVS Forum
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post #1981 of 12761 Old 03-12-2013, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by angryht View Post
  1. Are the 4 numbers that you list:
    • Frequency
    • Fine (? not sure what that is?)
    • bw (band width?)
    • Gain (in dB)

    Is that right? My DSP only has gain from -6 to +6 for 25 Hz, 40 Hz, 63 Hz, 100 Hz and 160 Hz. It does not have bw or fine settings.
     
  2. Should I start EQ'ing now or wait until I integrate the center and mains with the distance/delay settings? It seems logical to try and get the flattest response for the sub. And since there are separate settings for the sub and the mains and center, if I got the sub as smooth as possible to start with, that would make sense. But I can understand waiting to see.

They're not obvious (fasecious, perhaps, but not obvious).

That's why you get a parametric equalizer, so you can adjust the "parameters" (it took me a while to figure that out) such as exact frequency ("fine") and affected bandwidth. You have a graphic equalizer.

I listed the numbers as they'd be programmed into an 1124P, and they are off the top of my head (educated guesses based on previous experience), not gospel.

I would eq the subs now. I can't imagine the frequency response of the subs would have any effect on the other settings.

But then, one is never really finished, right?

Great work, so far.


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post #1982 of 12761 Old 03-12-2013, 11:41 AM
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Is there a promo code to get the $20 off? I've got it in my cart but it's showing at full price.

PDAY200, until 3/17


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post #1983 of 12761 Old 03-12-2013, 11:46 AM
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Thanks LBNL!

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post #1984 of 12761 Old 03-12-2013, 11:46 AM
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post #1985 of 12761 Old 03-12-2013, 11:51 AM
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Quote:

The new one comes with free shipping, which may be a factor with the used units.

This is interesting, though, considering they say the new one is NOT returnable.

confused.gif

 

BTW, in case you haven't been able to tell, I LOVE mine.

Michael


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post #1986 of 12761 Old 03-12-2013, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

The new one comes with free shipping, which may be a factor with the used units.
This is interesting, though, considering they say the new one is NOT returnable.
confused.gif

BTW, in case you haven't been able to tell, I LOVE mine.
Michael

When I bought mine around a year ago I got it with free shipping to my local store.

Then they screwed up and sent it to the OTHER guitar center in the same town, so I had to make a longer trip after being disappointed the first time. Still, it was a good deal, as I got the thing for 50 bucks.

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post #1987 of 12761 Old 03-12-2013, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

I think that's a stunning improvement from what you originally had. The bass is getting smoother and flatter, and the difference ain't subtle.
Thanks, you've helped quite a bit in that regard and I appreciate it.
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Might not be an audible problem, depending on where you set your crossover.
Good point, especially since my crossover is at 80 Hz.

-Greg
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post #1988 of 12761 Old 03-12-2013, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The big word there is IF... wink.gif  But I am hopeful. If I can get close to what Michael has achieved it will be an improvement on what Audyssey has, so far, managed. But there may be 'unfixable' issues here - I have zero scope for speaker/sub placement adjustments which is what I would be doing first if I was able to. I will of course keep all you dudes informed of my progress, or lack of it.

Silly question - is there any reason, if you're jumping down this rabbit hole, to consider a MiniDSP over a Behringer? As the MiniDSP has different plug-ins for different purposes, I'm wondering if it "may" offer more flexibility than a Behringer.

I'm waiting to see what Keith (and others) come up with, particularly for the sub/mains splice region WRT frequency response and "maybe" impulse response, so I'm not jumping yet, but curious. I have zero experience with a device like this over MCACC or Audyssey-based solutions. I'd honestly prefer to keep it simple (meaning, Audyssey and maybe room treatments) than add a device between subs (or speakers?) and an AVR, but I'm trying to keep an open mind about this experiment. And that's leaving out Feri's issue about multiple vs. single measurement solution priorities in the RC.

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

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post #1989 of 12761 Old 03-12-2013, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

They're not obvious (fasecious, perhaps, but not obvious).
That's why you get a parametric equalizer, so you can adjust the "parameters" (it took me a while to figure that out) such as exact frequency ("fine") and affected bandwidth. You have a graphic equalizer.
I listed the numbers as they'd be programmed into an 1124P, and they are off the top of my head (educated guesses based on previous experience), not gospel.
I would eq the subs now. I can't imagine the frequency response of the subs would have any effect on the other settings.

I have considered BFD for quite some time, just never pulled the trigger. I never really engaged the EQ on my receiver either. I initially ran Audeyssey but wasn't too happy with the results. It seems pretty lucky that I have a peak right at 40 Hz, which is one of the parameters in the receiver that I can adjust, so I should be able to bring that down a bit. And boost up the 25, as you suggested. As I progress I will determine if I would benefit from additional EQ. I am just now figuring out how to use the EQ function in REW thanks to Keith and others.
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

But then, one is never really finished, right?
Oh man, you hit the nail on the head there!
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

Great work, so far.
Thanks.

-Greg
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post #1990 of 12761 Old 03-12-2013, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Nice - great what you have achieved with a small number of well-chosen filters.  Next question (oh you thought I was done huh? smile.gif ) - how did you arrive at those numbers?  looking at your graphs it seems fairly obvious that the numbers you picked would work - is it really that easy?  Did you experiment a lot with REW's EQ section?

 

And how did you know how the two subs would interact once the individual filters had been made? This is something I am struggling with - if I want to EQ both subs differently, how will I know how they will play together when being used in the real world?  Is it just trial and error?

Yes, it is that easy. Really. REW is amazing. Complicated, sometimes obtuse, but amazing.

I'm afraid I don't remember my exact process. I know I have the high pass filter on the Klipsch at 50Hz. I probably just ran them both together and plugged the numbers into both channels. Then I goosed up the Klipsch at 20Hz.

Stop worrying. Just play around with it a little.

Fun, remember? Fun!

 

I shall fiddle about when my Behringer arrives and report back. 

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post #1991 of 12761 Old 03-12-2013, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The big word there is IF... wink.gif  But I am hopeful. If I can get close to what Michael has achieved it will be an improvement on what Audyssey has, so far, managed. But there may be 'unfixable' issues here - I have zero scope for speaker/sub placement adjustments which is what I would be doing first if I was able to. I will of course keep all you dudes informed of my progress, or lack of it.

Silly question - is there any reason, if you're jumping down this rabbit hole, to consider a MiniDSP over a Behringer? As the MiniDSP has different plug-ins for different purposes, I'm wondering if it "may" offer more flexibility than a Behringer.

I'm waiting to see what Keith (and others) come up with, particularly for the sub/mains splice region WRT frequency response and "maybe" impulse response, so I'm not jumping yet, but curious. I have zero experience with a device like this over MCACC or Audyssey-based solutions. I'd honestly prefer to keep it simple (meaning, Audyssey and maybe room treatments) than add a device between subs (or speakers?) and an AVR, but I'm trying to keep an open mind about this experiment. And that's leaving out Feri's issue about multiple vs. single measurement solution priorities in the RC.

 

I chose the Behringer simply because that is the one I found the most useful info on at HTS. I think it offers more filters than the MiniDSP too BICBW there. I'm sure they both do a good job.

 

WRT to multiple vs single etc - why worry - the results speak for themselves.

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post #1992 of 12761 Old 03-12-2013, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by angryht View Post

Good point, especially since my crossover is at 80 Hz.
Which means the subwoofer output will already by down 3dB at the crossover point, meaning that your five speakers will be playing 115Hz louder than your subs will. Instead of wasting resources on problems that will be bearely audible, better to spend those same resources on problems that are more easily heard.

And, as a quick reminder (to you and everyone), placement is only the first of three options available to improve the sound. Once you've done all you can with placement, you still have the option to use room treatments and the option to deploy electronic equalization. So don't worry if placement doesn't fix everything you hoped it would, as long as it makes an improvement (making subsequent steps easier).

Sanjay
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post #1993 of 12761 Old 03-12-2013, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Silly question - is there any reason, if you're jumping down this rabbit hole, to consider a MiniDSP over a Behringer? As the MiniDSP has different plug-ins for different purposes, I'm wondering if it "may" offer more flexibility than a Behringer.

I'm waiting to see what Keith (and others) come up with, particularly for the sub/mains splice region WRT frequency response and "maybe" impulse response, so I'm not jumping yet, but curious. I have zero experience with a device like this over MCACC or Audyssey-based solutions. I'd honestly prefer to keep it simple (meaning, Audyssey and maybe room treatments) than add a device between subs (or speakers?) and an AVR, but I'm trying to keep an open mind about this experiment. And that's leaving out Feri's issue about multiple vs. single measurement solution priorities in the RC.

I was *this* close to pulling the trigger on the BFD but hesitated long enough to think it over - I think the MiniDSP will work better for me because I am using multiple subs that require different delay times, something a single BFD just can't do. The MiniDSP also adds the bonus of being able to EQ multiple subs individually.

Now, I just gotta wait until my hernia surgery recovery time is over (6 weeks frown.gif ) before I can get my 3rd sub + MiniDSP and start pushing subs around my room again! biggrin.gif

AVR: DENON 2113ci
FL/R: Klipschorn
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post #1994 of 12761 Old 03-12-2013, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

I was *this* close to pulling the trigger on the BFD but hesitated long enough to think it over - I think the MiniDSP will work better for me because I am using multiple subs that require different delay times, something a single BFD just can't do. The MiniDSP also adds the bonus of being able to EQ multiple subs individually.

Now, I just gotta wait until my hernia surgery recovery time is over (6 weeks frown.gif ) before I can get my 3rd sub + MiniDSP and start pushing subs around my room again! biggrin.gif

The BFD can handle two subs, one in each channel.

I am, however, eager to see results from the MiniDSP. Good luck.

And a speedy recovery from your recent surgery. I must admit that, with all this talk of moving subs all over the place, the thought of a hernia has crossed my mind more than once.


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post #1995 of 12761 Old 03-12-2013, 04:32 PM
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Hmmm...can the BFD do separate delays (distance) on each channel. It only has the 2 channels, correct?

Yeah, I got 2 PSA XS15s a couple months back and believe that shoving them around the room was the direct cause of my hernia....I say it was worth it. wink.gif

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post #1996 of 12761 Old 03-12-2013, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

I was *this* close to pulling the trigger on the BFD but hesitated long enough to think it over - I think the MiniDSP will work better for me because I am using multiple subs that require different delay times, something a single BFD just can't do. The MiniDSP also adds the bonus of being able to EQ multiple subs individually.


Now, I just gotta wait until my hernia surgery recovery time is over (6 weeks frown.gif ) before I can get my 3rd sub + MiniDSP and start pushing subs around my room again! biggrin.gif
The BFD can handle two subs, one in each channel.
I am, however, eager to see results from the MiniDSP. Good luck.
And a speedy recovery from your recent surgery. I must admit that, with all this talk of moving subs all over the place, the thought of a hernia has crossed my mind more than once.
Lol, get those carpet slider things. Fantastic for finding optimal sub and speaker placements: just slide 'em around. Wally World even sells the kit with the prybar looking doodad for lifting items so you can get the sliders under the feet for folks for whom even that amount of lifting might be too much.


Max
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post #1997 of 12761 Old 03-12-2013, 07:01 PM
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Hmmm...can the BFD do separate delays (distance) on each channel. It only has the 2 channels, correct?
 

It can't do delays at all. It is an EQ device only, for two channels.

Actually, it's SUPPOSED to be used for eliminating feedback, but why would anyone be interested in that?

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post #1998 of 12761 Old 03-12-2013, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

It can't do delays at all. It is an EQ device only, for two channels.
Actually, it's SUPPOSED to be used for eliminating feedback, but why would anyone be interested in that?
biggrin.gif

Hmmm...having the delay accounted for may or may not be useful.

For one thing, if you control the delay in a device that's in between the subs and the AVR that's had an Audyssey calibration, are you improving the electronic delay set in Audyssey (or varied by the distance tweak post-hoc), or making it worse by being "less than optimal" competition in an Audyssey context? Or alternatively, is this a substitute for the distance tweak and thus improving the overall FR, if not other metrics we're looking at?

Interesting questions to puzzle.....keep this up and I might buy a MiniDSP and test this myself in my non-existent spare time. So much for being on the fence and letting Keith get the "glory"......

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

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post #1999 of 12761 Old 03-12-2013, 10:07 PM
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Yeah BFD can't do delay and minidsp can. When I researched I came to the minidsp conclusion. However keith has SubEQHT with his two fabulous subs so he has 2 separate sub delay settings available to him already so that feature difference does not matter for his situation.
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post #2000 of 12761 Old 03-12-2013, 10:17 PM
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Yeah BFD can't do delay and minidsp can. When I researched I came to the minidsp conclusion. However keith has SubEQHT with his two fabulous subs so he has 2 separate sub delay settings available to him already so that feature difference does not matter for his situation.

As do I, with my Denon 4311, and I have two somewhat fabulous ULS-15 on independent sub outputs. But if you enable Audyssey, and run REW with it on, the question is whether the MiniDSP's delay control "helps" or hurts in the crossover/splice region. IOW can it supplement or even replace the post-cal manual distance tweak, or this idea an entertaining waste of time? wink.gif

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

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post #2001 of 12761 Old 03-12-2013, 10:24 PM
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I'm not sure, but now we may be getting a bit further off topic.

Perhaps there's a MiniDSP thread?

 

So what's up with these new microphones that everyone was supposed to be getting?

wink.gif


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post #2002 of 12761 Old 03-12-2013, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

I'm not sure, but now we may be getting a bit further off topic.
Perhaps there's a MiniDSP thread?

So what's up with these new microphones that everyone was supposed to be getting?
wink.gif

Well, Keith "started" it....and we're kind of/sort of pursuing his lead. And we're using REW to get the filters, which makes it vaguely "on topic". YMMV of course..... tongue.gif

I like my UMM-6 that I got from CSL a few weeks ago, and it was very easy to calibrate and use with REW, once I picked up the RatShack SPL meter.

How about you?

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

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post #2003 of 12761 Old 03-12-2013, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
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Yeah BFD can't do delay and minidsp can. When I researched I came to the minidsp conclusion. However keith has SubEQHT with his two fabulous subs so he has 2 separate sub delay settings available to him already so that feature difference does not matter for his situation.

As do I, with my Denon 4311, and I have two somewhat fabulous ULS-15 on independent sub outputs. But if you enable Audyssey, and run REW with it on, the question is whether the MiniDSP's delay control "helps" or hurts in the crossover/splice region. IOW can it supplement or even replace the post-cal manual distance tweak, or this idea an entertaining waste of time? wink.gif

Yup lets keep this on topic...When optimizing based on REW measurements... smile.gif

On the 4311 you can independently set the distance and level of both sub channels independently regardless of whether audyssey room correction is on or not right? I can tweak levels and distance regardless of audyssey state (pre, post, min run, full run, on, off...)

I'd get audyssey's recommended distance for each, then unplug one, then run sweeps analyzing the crossover range while tweaking that ones distance. Pick the distance with the smoothest FR graph in the transition range. Then unplug the first one and do the second one. You should then double check with both subs but it should be right. My procedure is a little different as I am XT32 enabled without SubEQHT but have the minidsp for my duals.

As far as external EQ used in conjunction with Audyssey, the post not too long ago with the quote from craig john looked reasonable to me. However it is different then what I had previously came up with in the research. I always did all external stuff first and got my frequency response as smooth as possible then ran Audyssey. Thought being Audyssey is auto so I don't have the control over what it is going to do, so lets make it start with a good starting point and it should end up having to do less. Of course still measure everything. However craig (or was it seaton) makes a good argument for cases where you should EQ after audyssey.

I heard a ULS-15 at a GTG, very nice.
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post #2004 of 12761 Old 03-13-2013, 06:35 AM
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Silly question - is there any reason, if you're jumping down this rabbit hole, to consider a MiniDSP over a Behringer? As the MiniDSP has different plug-ins for different purposes, I'm wondering if it "may" offer more flexibility than a Behringer.

I'm waiting to see what Keith (and others) come up with, particularly for the sub/mains splice region WRT frequency response and "maybe" impulse response, so I'm not jumping yet, but curious. I have zero experience with a device like this over MCACC or Audyssey-based solutions. I'd honestly prefer to keep it simple (meaning, Audyssey and maybe room treatments) than add a device between subs (or speakers?) and an AVR, but I'm trying to keep an open mind about this experiment. And that's leaving out Feri's issue about multiple vs. single measurement solution priorities in the RC.

I was *this* close to pulling the trigger on the BFD but hesitated long enough to think it over - I think the MiniDSP will work better for me because I am using multiple subs that require different delay times, something a single BFD just can't do. The MiniDSP also adds the bonus of being able to EQ multiple subs individually.

Now, I just gotta wait until my hernia surgery recovery time is over (6 weeks frown.gif ) before I can get my 3rd sub + MiniDSP and start pushing subs around my room again! biggrin.gif

 

You can set the sub delays yourself by adjusting the sub distance and measuring the differences at various settings. Why would you want to EQ the subs individually/  Audyssey XT32 EQs the subs as a pair because what is important is how they play together, not as individual subs. IMO that is also what you should do.

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post #2005 of 12761 Old 03-13-2013, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Yeah BFD can't do delay and minidsp can. When I researched I came to the minidsp conclusion. However keith has SubEQHT with his two fabulous subs so he has 2 separate sub delay settings available to him already so that feature difference does not matter for his situation.

 

Ah yes - in my reply a few moments ago I forgot that the OP might not have XT32/SubEQ HT. Good catch. 

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post #2006 of 12761 Old 03-13-2013, 06:41 AM
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As far as external EQ used in conjunction with Audyssey, the post not too long ago with the quote from craig john looked reasonable to me. However it is different then what I had previously came up with in the research. I always did all external stuff first and got my frequency response as smooth as possible then ran Audyssey. Thought being Audyssey is auto so I don't have the control over what it is going to do, so lets make it start with a good starting point and it should end up having to do less. Of course still measure everything. However craig (or was it seaton) makes a good argument for cases where you should EQ after audyssey..

Yes - it depends on the nature of the problem you are trying to correct. Depending on that it might be better to run the PEQ stuff first and then give Audyssey an easy ride, or it might br better to run Audyssey first and then use PEQ to ice the cake.

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post #2007 of 12761 Old 03-13-2013, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You can set the sub delays yourself by adjusting the sub distance and measuring the differences at various settings. Why would you want to EQ the subs individually/  Audyssey XT32 EQs the subs as a pair because what is important is how they play together, not as individual subs. IMO that is also what you should do.

If one (or more) sub is considerably closer to the MLP than the other, setting separate distance settingsafter running Audyssey can be very beneficial. Also, EQ'ing multiple subs separately for flattest response before running Audyssey should give you a smoother over all response. EQ'ing one sub, then the other, then both together with separate EQ controls should give us more over all control of response when played together.

P.S. I do not have XT32, only XT. wink.gif

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post #2008 of 12761 Old 03-13-2013, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You can set the sub delays yourself by adjusting the sub distance and measuring the differences at various settings. Why would you want to EQ the subs individually/  Audyssey XT32 EQs the subs as a pair because what is important is how they play together, not as individual subs. IMO that is also what you should do.

If one (or more) sub is considerably closer to the MLP than the other, setting separate distance settingsafter running Audyssey can be very beneficial. Also, EQ'ing multiple subs separately for flattest response before running Audyssey should give you a smoother over all response. EQ'ing one sub, then the other, then both together with separate EQ controls should give us more over all control of response when played together.

P.S. I do not have XT32, only XT. wink.gif

 

With XT I agree that you cannot set the sub delays individually for multiple subs. WRT to EQing them separately, I still can’t follow the logic - the subs play the same content so it seems to make more sense to set their levels and gain individually but to EQ them together, as on. That's how Audyssey does it and it makes sense to me. That way you cater for any interaction between the subs. Do this before running Audyssey and it should make Audyssey's job a lot easier, I agree. That way, you also preserve Audyssey's target curve. 

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post #2009 of 12761 Old 03-13-2013, 09:35 AM
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Behringer has arrived, along with my midi interface. Had a quick play - it is sooooooo easy. Go to EQ in REW, fiddle with the sub range (I am only concerned with EQing the subs), get it looking right, check you're not using too many filters. Don't boost more than 6dB. Then connect the laptop to the Behringer and hit "send filters to equaliser" and 5 seconds later REW has programmed the Behringer. I got it all up and running in 5 minutes. I havent connected it to the sound system yet - want to play more. Very neat idea with the Behringer is to save difference curves for different purposes - eg a movie curve and a music curve. There are 10 presets so in theory you could have 10 different configurations of filters. This will also be handy for saving filter sets for evaluation with REW - you can save save 10 presets of filters and then simply switch between them and measure - great way to tweak.

 

You can then do this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This one with 1/6th smoothing to represent the graph as more like what we hear:

 

 

 

That took about 30 seconds.

 

It used all 12 filters with a max boost of 6dB in just one filter. Of course it may well sound like cr&p - but how easy is it to make several sets of filters and then upload them to the Behringer and try them all out, measuring as you go, until you have the result you want.

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post #2010 of 12761 Old 03-13-2013, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You can set the sub delays yourself by adjusting the sub distance and measuring the differences at various settings. Why would you want to EQ the subs individually/  Audyssey XT32 EQs the subs as a pair because what is important is how they play together, not as individual subs. IMO that is also what you should do.


If one (or more) sub is considerably closer to the MLP than the other, setting separate distance settingsafter running Audyssey can be very beneficial. Also, EQ'ing multiple subs separately for flattest response before running Audyssey should give you a smoother over all response. EQ'ing one sub, then the other, then both together with separate EQ controls should give us more over all control of response when played together.


P.S. I do not have XT32, only XT. wink.gif

With XT I agree that you cannot set the sub delays individually for multiple subs. WRT to EQing them separately, I still can’t follow the logic - the subs play the same content so it seems to make more sense to set their levels and gain individually but to EQ them together, as on. That's how Audyssey does it and it makes sense to me. That way you cater for any interaction between the subs. Do this before running Audyssey and it should make Audyssey's job a lot easier, I agree. That way, you also preserve Audyssey's target curve. 

Yeah You should EQ as one sub or you could reduce the multisub smoothing benefit. Unless you are trying to do a geddes style helper sub that is only playing a limited frequency range to address a dip with the main sub. However I don't even think geddes is recommending that approach anymore.
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