Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 673 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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Old 08-22-2016, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Still losing the fight with this room...
That's akin to having a 'discussion' with your wife; you're toast, seemingly no matter what you do.

Just out of curiosity, what is the crossover set at for the center? It's possible one of those dips is due to a phase interaction in that region.

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Old 08-22-2016, 10:01 PM
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Didn't pass the sniff test with the few key clips I try after each EQ. So, I decided NOT to call it a night and instead move it once more to the nearfield spot where I got a decent response earlier, and turn it to the side how I achieved said response. Like this:



Applied the following filters:



And got the following response. Besides the dip at 30Hz that doesn't want to leave, its not bad.



Gonna listen to it for a few now.
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Old 08-22-2016, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
That's akin to having a 'discussion' with your wife; you're toast, seemingly no matter what you do.

Just out of curiosity, what is the crossover set at for the center? It's possible one of those dips is due to a phase interaction in that region.
Crossover is set to 80hz, i think the big dip could be from that, but I did try the distance tweek and it made it worse going farther or closer. Check out my last post - got a decent response there.

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Old 08-22-2016, 10:13 PM
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You are experience the challenges of dialing in a single sub. A single LARGE sub. You may have to throw your/Enrico's LV12 back into the mix if you want near perfection.

My advice is that microphone positioning can be very sensitive. Move the mic 6" in each direction at the MLP. Test the other LPs. You might find that you actually have a good position for that single sub. I have duals and I still couldn't achieve perfection without obstructing a door/walkway. I ended up adding MBMs, so essentially 4 subs for a response free of nulls.
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Old 08-22-2016, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
You are experience the challenges of dialing in a single sub. A single LARGE sub. You may have to throw your/Enrico's LV12 back into the mix if you want near perfection.

My advice is that microphone positioning can be very sensitive. Move the mic 6" in each direction at the MLP. Test the other LPs. You might find that you actually have a good position for that single sub. I have duals and I still couldn't achieve perfection without obstructing a door/walkway. I ended up adding MBMs, so essentially 4 subs for a response free of nulls.

I'm betting the LV12R would help, but keeping it just isn't an option. My wife is already stretching her comfort zone for me to get the FV15HP. She doesn't love spending.

The response before was similar and still is even 2 feet away into the secondary listening position. The latest response i just posted seems to be giving me amazing results based on a few short clips I just listened to. Can't do much more tonight since the family is asleep, but I think I may have gotten it right just how it is.

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Old 08-23-2016, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Have you read the guide linked in my sig. Page 104 has the procedure for checking levels.
Thanks, was looking for that section.

I think my question centers around the scale used in my AVR though. Because reference level should be at zero and I don't know how it is on other AVRs but my master volume scale goes past zero (-80 to +12) so I guess I'm confused as to if reference on my scale is "0" or +12. I'm under the impression other AVRs go from a negative number to a zero then stop

I find it also odd the the other scale used (0-98) stops at 98, I guess it's not a one for one relationship plus why not stop at 92 like the other scale option
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Old 08-23-2016, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by ronin22 View Post
Thanks, was looking for that section.

I think my question centers around the scale used in my AVR though. Because reference level should be at zero and I don't know how it is on other AVRs but my master volume scale goes past zero (-80 to +12) so I guess I'm confused as to if reference on my scale is "0" or +12. I'm under the impression other AVRs go from a negative number to a zero then stop

I find it also odd the the other scale used (0-98) stops at 98, I guess it's not a one for one relationship plus why not stop at 92 like the other scale option
According to the section in the Guide that you should have read, setting the master volume to zero (using the -80 to +12 scale), you should be getting a 75dB level reading at the MLP. I will assume that you have run room correction and the speaker levels are set properly (room correction usually does a pretty good job of correctly setting levels). What this tells you is that MV=0 is Reference.

If you want to know what reading using the alternate scale (0-98) is Reference, simply adjust MV until the level at the MLP is 75dB.

I am only familiar with the Master Volume range on D&M equipment (I have a Marantz), so cannot comment on your claim that other manufacturers' equipment behave differently.
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Old 08-23-2016, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Deleted - I also am not a fan of misinformation - especially when it comes from me.
I did as well. No harm done, and thanks.
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Old 08-23-2016, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
So I was able to go in and select the UMIK-1 mic. It was not initially listed as "active" so I couldnt select it.

I got some measurements. I am posting my initial measurement and what I ended up with....

Here is my initial measurement after setting the mains to 80hz instead of full range



I moved the sub location to 16 feet from 14 feet and took another measurements. Smaller but much deeper dip @60hz, and another appears around 90hz, but between 100hz and 200hz it seems to get a bit better....



I went the other way foot by foot and got this measurement which was the best one with regards to the 60hz dip. Anything else and it started to get really wonky around the crossover point, in addition to the 100 - 200 range.



I should mention I am working toward getting a second sub up and running which should hopefully help my room modes, which I am fairly certain the 60hz dip is. I moved the mic forward a few feet to a different location and the dip moved higher up, but was the same dimensions...
Anybody have some thoughts on my measurements? Am I missing some super tweak to fix some of these issues? Am I looking at room modes I cant fix, etc....

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Old 08-23-2016, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
According to the section in the Guide that you should have read, setting the master volume to zero (using the -80 to +12 scale), you should be getting a 75dB level reading at the MLP. I will assume that you have run room correction and the speaker levels are set properly (room correction usually does a pretty good job of correctly setting levels). What this tells you is that MV=0 is Reference.

If you want to know what reading using the alternate scale (0-98) is Reference, simply adjust MV until the level at the MLP is 75dB.

I am only familiar with the Master Volume range on D&M equipment (I have a Marantz), so cannot comment on your claim that other manufacturers' equipment behave differently.

Thanks. I did read the guide but I think I'm still off. I used my center channel to try to do this the process went something like this.

Set center level trim to 0
Set signal generator in REW to -30
Turned on the REW spl
Played the pink noise
Turned MV up to 0 (using -80,to 12 scale)
Signal coming out of the center channel read between 82-83db at 0 MV
I have the umik sens factor in file in

The MV volume number where the REW spl reaches 75db is -8

I'm not trying to be a PITA just trying to understand. Many thanks
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Old 08-23-2016, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by ronin22 View Post
Thanks. I did read the guide but I think I'm still off. I used my center channel to try to do this the process went something like this.

Set center level trim to 0
Set signal generator in REW to -30
Turned on the REW spl
Played the pink noise
Turned MV up to 0 (using -80,to 12 scale)
Signal coming out of the center channel read between 82-83db at 0 MV
I have the umik sens factor in file in

The MV volume number where the REW spl reaches 75db is -8

I'm not trying to be a PITA just trying to understand. Many thanks
The missing piece of information here is whether you use room correction or not (and if yes, what type of RC). Assuming you have run room correction, each of your main speakers would likely have a trim value as a result of the calibration. Your mistake is that you changed the center channel trim to zero. You should have left it at the trim setting established by room correction.

So, for example, if the original center channel trim were between -7 and -8, then a 0 MV setting would have produced a -75dB level at the MLP.
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Old 08-23-2016, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
Anybody have some thoughts on my measurements? Am I missing some super tweak to fix some of these issues? Am I looking at room modes I cant fix, etc....
Only two comments: congratulations on getting the mic to work properly, and the third measurement looks like the best result.
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Old 08-23-2016, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
What would such a house curve look like?
It would look like what he has now (and is [finally] happy with), post 20162, just with a flatter line from the peak at 25 to the peak at 12. That won't affect music much and will give him more "thump" for HT.
And, of course, it would have to be lowered if it was too much at that level. Can't tell that from a graph.
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Old 08-23-2016, 11:27 AM
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It would look like what he has now (and is [finally] happy with), post 20162
Speaking of which, I would try lowering the target curve to 90dB. That would make everything smoother and reduce the dip at 30.
Might then need to raise the volume, either on the sub or the avr, depending on where the center/mains end up.
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Old 08-23-2016, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The missing piece of information here is whether you use room correction or not (and if yes, what type of RC). Assuming you have run room correction, each of your main speakers would likely have a trim value as a result of the calibration. Your mistake is that you changed the center channel trim to zero. You should have left it at the trim setting established by room correction.

So, for example, if the original center channel trim were between -7 and -8, then a 0 MV setting would have produced a -75dB level at the MLP.
I'm using audessy xt32 but the original trim was only -1 for the center.

I gave the other scale a shot (0-98) using the same parameters as before and with the master volume at 75 the REW spl read about 77db but using the Marantz test tone with the master volume set at 75 the REW spl meter read 75db. Pretty interesting.
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Old 08-23-2016, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
It would look like what he has now (and is [finally] happy with), post 20162, just with a flatter line from the peak at 25 to the peak at 12. That won't affect music much and will give him more "thump" for HT.
And, of course, it would have to be lowered if it was too much at that level. Can't tell that from a graph.
Michael
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Speaking of which, I would try lowering the target curve to 90dB. That would make everything smoother and reduce the dip at 30.
Might then need to raise the volume, either on the sub or the avr, depending on where the center/mains end up.
Michael
First off, I love how you put finally, lol. Tired of my incessant posts?

It DEFINITELY has a thump now, and that is what I love. The reason the graph looks like this is because I have it running 6db hot in this FR.



The peaks at 12 and 25 are only seperated by a minor ~5-6db dip. I tried to lower The dip at 30 doesn't go away if i lower the target line, it just goes lower itself. I tried to add a little 3db gain boost and the sub made a very nasty noise - so I got rid of it. It sounded really good in the few clips i was able to watch last night. I plan to try a whole bunch more tonight. Will let you all know how it sounds after that. If it's TOO much, I can always take the sub down a few db.

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Old 08-23-2016, 11:47 AM
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First off, I love how you put finally, lol. Tired of my incessant posts?
It DEFINITELY has a thump now, and that is what I love.
No, just thrilled that you are [finally] getting close to what you want.

Congrats, and enjoy.
Michael

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Old 08-23-2016, 12:00 PM
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Only two comments: congratulations on getting the mic to work properly, and the third measurement looks like the best result.
Thanks. Now that I know what I was doing wrong (all the many many things), I feel better about my abilities. However given I am EXTREMELY time limited, I'm debating sucking it up and paying a pro to come and take a look at my setup and hopefully help me dial it in and run XT32 and tweak it.

At the same time I'd have them ISF calibrate my Plasma.

I'd prefer to get rid of that funkiness between 100-200hz if at all possible.

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Old 08-23-2016, 12:03 PM
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paying someone $100/hr or more to do some of these calibrations is worth it to some. Let your ears/eyes save your wallet imo.

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
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Old 08-23-2016, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
However given I am EXTREMELY time limited, I'm debating sucking it up and paying a pro to come and take a look at my setup and hopefully help me dial it in and run XT32 and tweak it.
It's either a hobby or it isn't. Only you can be the judge.
One of the many advantages of learning how to do it yourself is that, when you change any part of your system, you can recalibrate it without calling in (and paying for) the pros again.
If it's "not bad" now, it may not be worth it to have a pro get it better. Just take your time and do it in stages.
No one here is coming over to grade you.
Until next week.

Michael

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Old 08-23-2016, 12:32 PM
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paying someone $100/hr or more to do some of these calibrations is worth it to some. Let your ears/eyes save your wallet imo.
I got a quote and it would be 90 bucks for calibration and another 90 for the ISF calibration. I haven't scheduled anything but I wanted to know what I'd be looking at price wise.

Sometimes its just easier to let a pro do it, and also help tweak the layout as they "should" have seen more setups than me so should be able to dial it in a bit quicker than I can.

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Old 08-23-2016, 12:37 PM
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I been there and done that. Hope you find it worth the time/money.

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Old 08-23-2016, 12:37 PM
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"Should" is indeed the operative word here.
It depends on the "pro."
Check references.
Michael

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Old 08-23-2016, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
I got a quote and it would be 90 bucks for calibration and another 90 for the ISF calibration. I haven't scheduled anything but I wanted to know what I'd be looking at price wise.

Sometimes its just easier to let a pro do it, and also help tweak the layout as they "should" have seen more setups than me so should be able to dial it in a bit quicker than I can.
That's great pricing, especially for the ISF calibration.
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Old 08-23-2016, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
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I been there and done that. Hope you find it worth the time/money.
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"Should" is indeed the operative word here.
It depends on the "pro."
Check references.
Michael
Well they designed my buddies HT setup from the ground up and installed everything and I was very impressed both by the quality and also the pricing they gave him on some of the items (Sunfire TGA amps/Klipsh TOLT speakers, etc). So I trust em.

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That's great pricing, especially for the ISF calibration.
Yeah thats kinda what I thought.

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Old 08-23-2016, 01:52 PM
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Hey guys. I avoided going down the measurements rabbit hole for my own system because I was happy with the sound. Recently been helping a close friend set up his audio system and as fate would have it, we've unfortunately discovered a UMIK-1 and REW.

Room: 17ft x 14 ft x 10ft (hard marble floor, rug in front part of room but not fully carpeted, regular furniture around the place)
AVR: Yamaha 679 with YPAO RSC
Speakers: Monitor Audio Bronze 5 fronts, Bronze Centre, Paradigm Sub

No YPAO eq, disconnected sub for speaker sweeps then disconnected speakers for sub sweep

Only thing we did before is to use the RTA feature to locate a good place for the sub, which turned out to be midway to the left side of the room about 3 feet from the wall...placing it anywhere else meant a huge 25db dip between 32hz and 52hz and the like.

Graph settings: 1/6 smoothing for speakers and sub on unified graph, no smoothing on sub only graph

Should the next step be taking readings with YPAO on, speakers set to small and crossover to 80hz? the sub is movable for positioning but the big dip after about 70hz on the right speaker seems daunting - how can that be dealt with via positioning since it's the only place in the room where they can be placed?

(If I haven't made it obvious enough, I'm new to all this :-s)
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Old 08-23-2016, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
It would look like what he has now (and is [finally] happy with), post 20162, just with a flatter line from the peak at 25 to the peak at 12. That won't affect music much and will give him more "thump" for HT.
And, of course, it would have to be lowered if it was too much at that level. Can't tell that from a graph.
Michael
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
First off, I love how you put finally, lol. Tired of my incessant posts?

It DEFINITELY has a thump now, and that is what I love. The reason the graph looks like this is because I have it running 6db hot in this FR.



The peaks at 12 and 25 are only seperated by a minor ~5-6db dip. I tried to lower The dip at 30 doesn't go away if i lower the target line, it just goes lower itself. I tried to add a little 3db gain boost and the sub made a very nasty noise - so I got rid of it. It sounded really good in the few clips i was able to watch last night. I plan to try a whole bunch more tonight. Will let you all know how it sounds after that. If it's TOO much, I can always take the sub down a few db.
So, in my case, if I want similar results, would I do this?



(Or should I shelve it at 30Hz, so 20Hz-30Hz is flat and higher than >30Hz?)
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Old 08-23-2016, 02:11 PM
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Follow Jerry's guide. The front right will probably improve with sub on, so we need left/sub, right/sub, center/sub. What xo options are available with your AVR?
Don't use YPAO just yet.
Michael

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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Old 08-23-2016, 02:15 PM
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(Or should I shelve it at 30Hz, so 20Hz-30Hz is flat and higher than >30Hz?)
I have found, with my setup, that not shelving causes a "boominess" that I don't like, but your system and preferences will be different.
That's why it's called a "house curve," it's your house, so give it a try and see what you think.
Michael

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Old 08-23-2016, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
I have found, with my setup, that not shelving causes a "boominess" that I don't like, but your system and preferences will be different.
That's why it's called a "house curve," it's your house, so give it a try and see what you think.
Michael
do you think this is worth a try over the one posted above?



It goes up about a dB each 10Hz increment from 60Hz->50Hz, 50Hz to 40Hz, 40Hz->30Hz.
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