Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 676 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #20251 of 22221 Old 08-24-2016, 01:05 PM
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I would just enjoy the movies you like and see what the FV15HP adds to the overall experience beyond the LV12R. In time it will become clear what the differences and similarities are... above all, just give REW a rest for a week or so and then only come back if you feel something is off.
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post #20252 of 22221 Old 08-24-2016, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I would just enjoy the movies you like and see what the FV15HP adds to the overall experience beyond the LV12R. In time it will become clear what the differences and similarities are... above all, just give REW a rest for a week or so and then only come back if you feel something is off.
Also careful with that EOT clip, playing it over and over again can heat up your sub ;-)
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post #20253 of 22221 Old 08-24-2016, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I would just enjoy the movies you like and see what the FV15HP adds to the overall experience beyond the LV12R. In time it will become clear what the differences and similarities are... above all, just give REW a rest for a week or so and then only come back if you feel something is off.


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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
Also careful with that EOT clip, playing it over and over again can heat up your sub ;-)


I just played it the once and popped it out. I'm gonna take Plasmas suggestion and just begin watching movies. I was very happy with the LV12R when I did this and I'm sure I'll be even more so with the FV15HP.

My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
Plasma 50" TV: Samsung PN50C8000 — DLP Projector: Optoma GT1080
Projector Screen: Elite VMAX2 Electric — Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44 — Fronts: B&W 684 S1
Center: B&W CM Center S2 — Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rythmik FV15HP
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post #20254 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 05:19 AM
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...Right after this last calibration I did last night



The lower frequencies are much higher by design. After reading about perceived response vs measured, I realized that while a microphone may pickup the sub-sonic and low frequency waves as equal to the higher frequencies in terms of dbs, my ears definitely do not. After some back and forth , trial and error, and a lot of subjective listening, I found this FR to produce near identical perceived volume at 30, 100, 1000, 10000hz (1000-10000 are still even slightly louder, but it's close).
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My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
Plasma 50" TV: Samsung PN50C8000 — DLP Projector: Optoma GT1080
Projector Screen: Elite VMAX2 Electric — Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44 — Fronts: B&W 684 S1
Center: B&W CM Center S2 — Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rythmik FV15HP
Rear Surrounds: Polk Audio T15 — Front Heights: Polk Audio T15
Check out my most recent subwoofer frequency response (1 vs. 2 port) and full system response.
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post #20255 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 05:39 AM
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Looks like you're running things at least 15dB hot at the bottom end... be careful as your sub might reach and exceed its limits long before your speakers do.

Most here don't run things hotter than 10dB and 3dB-6dB is typical.
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post #20256 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Looks like you're running things at least 15dB hot at the bottom end... be careful as your sub might reach and exceed its limits long before your speakers do.

Most here don't run things hotter than 10dB and 3dB-6dB is typical.
Well here is the thing - the above graph was after I ran MCACC with the subwoofer volume knob in a position where the sub came out to -6db. Then I ran it up to -2db. My understanding was that I was then running it 4db hot. So how could MCACC place it at -6db vs. the other speakers, while REW shows it 15db hot?

My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
Plasma 50" TV: Samsung PN50C8000 — DLP Projector: Optoma GT1080
Projector Screen: Elite VMAX2 Electric — Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44 — Fronts: B&W 684 S1
Center: B&W CM Center S2 — Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rythmik FV15HP
Rear Surrounds: Polk Audio T15 — Front Heights: Polk Audio T15
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post #20257 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 07:10 AM
 
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Hi guys,
I'm using two subs in my room. I selected the locations of subs after taking many REW readings and finding the best place in terms of FR smoothness. I ended up with one sub in the dead center of room hugging front wall and 2nd sub hugging left wall 1 foot away from back wall. I used minidsp to set the delays. After performing Dirac calibration, the FR looks nice. Bass for the most part has good impact. My only concern is that sometimes I feel like Bass is not as punchy as it should be. Each sub has 2 18" driver (dual oppsing subs) and I'm running them 8dB hotter than main. All corners of rooms are treated with bass traps (8" rockwool).

Unfortunately, I can't post my REW images yet since this is my first post. After 5 posts, I should be able to

Question: if a sub is placed hugging a wall, can it impact its bass punchiness and make it boomier? Please note that the drivers are facing the side walls (not the front wall). Is it better to find a place that is certain inches away from walls for subs to produce cleaner and punchier bass? Front sub that is hugging front wall is in between center and front wall. In other words, its hugging front wall from one side and center speaker from other.

Thank you.
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post #20258 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Looks like you're running things at least 15dB hot at the bottom end... be careful as your sub might reach and exceed its limits long before your speakers do.

Most here don't run things hotter than 10dB and 3dB-6dB is typical.
Well here is the thing - the above graph was after I ran MCACC with the subwoofer volume knob in a position where the sub came out to -6db. Then I ran it up to -2db. My understanding was that I was then running it 4db hot. So how could MCACC place it at -6db vs. the other speakers, while REW shows it 15db hot?
I've been in a similar situation as yours awhile back... look at my post in the Rythmik thread that concisely explains why 4dB hot is actually 15dB hot+ in your case.
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post #20259 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 07:20 AM
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After 5 posts, I should be able to
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post #20260 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 07:22 AM
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I've been in a similar situation as yours awhile back... look at my post in the Rythmik thread that concisely explains why 4dB hot is actually 15dB hot+ in your case.
Looks like you measured channel 4. Channel 4 is always 10db hot by design.
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post #20261 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by filya View Post
Hi guys,
I'm using two subs in my room. I selected the locations of subs after taking many REW readings and finding the best place in terms of FR smoothness. I ended up with one sub in the dead center of room hugging front wall and 2nd sub hugging left wall 1 foot away from back wall. I used minidsp to set the delays. After performing Dirac calibration, the FR looks nice. Bass for the most part has good impact. My only concern is that sometimes I feel like Bass is not as punchy as it should be. Each sub has 2 18" driver (dual oppsing subs) and I'm running them 8dB hotter than main. All corners of rooms are treated with bass traps (8" rockwool).

Unfortunately, I can't post my REW images yet since this is my first post. After 5 posts, I should be able to

Question: if a sub is placed hugging a wall, can it impact its bass punchiness and make it boomier? Please note that the drivers are facing the side walls (not the front wall). Is it better to find a place that is certain inches away from walls for subs to produce cleaner and punchier bass? Front sub that is hugging front wall is in between center and front wall. In other words, its hugging front wall from one side and center speaker from other.

Thank you.
What subs do you have, are the ported or sealed? Are you trimming between 30-60hz dramatically?

My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
Plasma 50" TV: Samsung PN50C8000 — DLP Projector: Optoma GT1080
Projector Screen: Elite VMAX2 Electric — Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44 — Fronts: B&W 684 S1
Center: B&W CM Center S2 — Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rythmik FV15HP
Rear Surrounds: Polk Audio T15 — Front Heights: Polk Audio T15
Check out my most recent subwoofer frequency response (1 vs. 2 port) and full system response.
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post #20262 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 07:31 AM
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Hi guys,
I'm using two subs in my room. I selected the locations of subs after taking many REW readings and finding the best place in terms of FR smoothness. I ended up with one sub in the dead center of room hugging front wall and 2nd sub hugging left wall 1 foot away from back wall. I used minidsp to set the delays. After performing Dirac calibration, the FR looks nice. Bass for the most part has good impact. My only concern is that sometimes I feel like Bass is not as punchy as it should be. Each sub has 2 18" driver (dual oppsing subs) and I'm running them 8dB hotter than main. All corners of rooms are treated with bass traps (8" rockwool).

Unfortunately, I can't post my REW images yet since this is my first post. After 5 posts, I should be able to

Question: if a sub is placed hugging a wall, can it impact its bass punchiness and make it boomier? Please note that the drivers are facing the side walls (not the front wall). Is it better to find a place that is certain inches away from walls for subs to produce cleaner and punchier bass? Front sub that is hugging front wall is in between center and front wall. In other words, its hugging front wall from one side and center speaker from other.

Thank you.
Looks an excellent result to my eyes
Perhaps the Sub and mains blend could be very slightly better
I would be a happy camper with those results
Be interesting to hear what others think of your lack of punch
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post #20263 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by filya View Post
Hi guys,
I'm using two subs in my room. I selected the locations of subs after taking many REW readings and finding the best place in terms of FR smoothness. I ended up with one sub in the dead center of room hugging front wall and 2nd sub hugging left wall 1 foot away from back wall. I used minidsp to set the delays. After performing Dirac calibration, the FR looks nice. Bass for the most part has good impact. My only concern is that sometimes I feel like Bass is not as punchy as it should be. Each sub has 2 18" driver (dual oppsing subs) and I'm running them 8dB hotter than main. All corners of rooms are treated with bass traps (8" rockwool).

Unfortunately, I can't post my REW images yet since this is my first post. After 5 posts, I should be able to

Question: if a sub is placed hugging a wall, can it impact its bass punchiness and make it boomier? Please note that the drivers are facing the side walls (not the front wall). Is it better to find a place that is certain inches away from walls for subs to produce cleaner and punchier bass? Front sub that is hugging front wall is in between center and front wall. In other words, its hugging front wall from one side and center speaker from other.

Thank you.
I've recently been through this same type of situation. I bet music sounds fantastic, and has clear punchy bass. Try something out that has a nice bass kick in it and tell me if I'm right. When I EQ'd to a flat line like you have (though mine was not nearly as flat as nice as yours looks), I noticed, I too was lacking bass down low.

@PlasmaPZ80U showed me the House Curve feature of REW in the preferences page. Applying a house curve seems to help dramatically with HT Bass. Why dont you give that a shot and see how you do?

My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
Plasma 50" TV: Samsung PN50C8000 — DLP Projector: Optoma GT1080
Projector Screen: Elite VMAX2 Electric — Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44 — Fronts: B&W 684 S1
Center: B&W CM Center S2 — Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rythmik FV15HP
Rear Surrounds: Polk Audio T15 — Front Heights: Polk Audio T15
Check out my most recent subwoofer frequency response (1 vs. 2 port) and full system response.
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post #20264 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by filya View Post
Hi guys,
I'm using two subs in my room. I selected the locations of subs after taking many REW readings and finding the best place in terms of FR smoothness. I ended up with one sub in the dead center of room hugging front wall and 2nd sub hugging left wall 1 foot away from back wall. I used minidsp to set the delays. After performing Dirac calibration, the FR looks nice. Bass for the most part has good impact. My only concern is that sometimes I feel like Bass is not as punchy as it should be. Each sub has 2 18" driver (dual oppsing subs) and I'm running them 8dB hotter than main. All corners of rooms are treated with bass traps (8" rockwool).

Unfortunately, I can't post my REW images yet since this is my first post. After 5 posts, I should be able to

Question: if a sub is placed hugging a wall, can it impact its bass punchiness and make it boomier? Please note that the drivers are facing the side walls (not the front wall). Is it better to find a place that is certain inches away from walls for subs to produce cleaner and punchier bass? Front sub that is hugging front wall is in between center and front wall. In other words, its hugging front wall from one side and center speaker from other.

Thank you.
I don't see anything wrong with your graphs. How would you define and measure "punchiness"? BTW, a good track to assess what I think you mean by punchiness is the first track on Haim's album "Days are Gone". On my system, the bass "pressurizes" the room.
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post #20265 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 08:13 AM
 
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Those other posts go here:

Welcome aboard!
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Thank you Sir. Very Interesting to see we have an AVS playground . I just tried to make a Multi post and it blocked me again from it till 5 posts are done. Should be there in no time (thanks to the awesome AVS members here who are already helping me out). Love it.
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post #20266 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 08:16 AM
 
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What subs do you have, are the ported or sealed? Are you trimming between 30-60hz dramatically?
These are Sealed Subs. Even though I wasn't able to use IMG tag, it seems like the post still attached the images. If you look at FR, you'll see that I"m within 2db from 7-80 Hz. No peaks/disp there. Therefore I was questioning if palcing subs hugging wall can cause a bit of boom in its quality. I do get chest slam and tactile but feel like if it can be a bit more punchier. I like clean and punchy bass instead of very loud and boomy.
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post #20267 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 08:20 AM
 
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Looks an excellent result to my eyes
Perhaps the Sub and mains blend could be very slightly better
I would be a happy camper with those results
Be interesting to hear what others think of your lack of punch
I didn't have and phase issues b/w subs and mains. Mains+Subs fr look fine. Left has a dip around 140 but I don't think that will make a big difference anyway. Other than that, FR looks spot on to me and following the curve I setup in Dirac for the most part.
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post #20268 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 08:29 AM
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I don't see anything wrong with your graphs. How would you define and measure "punchiness"? BTW, a good track to assess what I think you mean by punchiness is the first track on Haim's album "Days are Gone". On my system, the bass "pressurizes" the room.
Quick side-note: I love movie/recommendations. I find it strange that the majority of music recommendations are not available on many music streaming services/iTunes. I can normally find them on Youtube though. I found Haim on Youtube.

My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
Plasma 50" TV: Samsung PN50C8000 — DLP Projector: Optoma GT1080
Projector Screen: Elite VMAX2 Electric — Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44 — Fronts: B&W 684 S1
Center: B&W CM Center S2 — Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rythmik FV15HP
Rear Surrounds: Polk Audio T15 — Front Heights: Polk Audio T15
Check out my most recent subwoofer frequency response (1 vs. 2 port) and full system response.
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post #20269 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 08:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I don't see anything wrong with your graphs. How would you define and measure "punchiness"? BTW, a good track to assess what I think you mean by punchiness is the first track on Haim's album "Days are Gone". On my system, the bass "pressurizes" the room.
Hi Jerry. I don't think there is any way to measure punchiness. I guess one way to know if bass is not too boomy is to make sure the FR doesn't have any major peak and time delays are withing 450ms (according to your awesome guide). I posted WaterFall and Spectrogram comparing with 300ms to show that I don't have ny room ringing.

I'll definitely will listen to that song and give my feedback.

My main concern is not with FR as of now but more with having sub placed in between my center speaker (which is 30" wide) and front wall? Drivers and facing side ways so its not like the drivers are being blocked but just wondering what's the best practice to make sure sub can produce as clean and punchy sound as possible. I remember reading an article which emphasized about having subs 10-12" away from all the walls. Can't find the link though.
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post #20270 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 08:55 AM
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Hi Jerry. I don't think there is any way to measure punchiness.
Don't be silly, around here there's a way to measure ANYTHING:
The VibSensor Accelerometer Test Thread
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post #20271 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by filya View Post
Hi Jerry. I don't think there is any way to measure punchiness. I guess one way to know if bass is not too boomy is to make sure the FR doesn't have any major peak and time delays are withing 450ms (according to your awesome guide). I posted WaterFall and Spectrogram comparing with 300ms to show that I don't have ny room ringing.

I'll definitely will listen to that song and give my feedback.

My main concern is not with FR as of now but more with having sub placed in between my center speaker (which is 30" wide) and front wall? Drivers and facing side ways so its not like the drivers are being blocked but just wondering what's the best practice to make sure sub can produce as clean and punchy sound as possible. I remember reading an article which emphasized about having subs 10-12" away from all the walls. Can't find the link though.
Another thing you might want to test is the polarity relationship between the two subs. I recently added a section to the MiniDSP 2x4 setup guide linked in my sig on how to measure and test the polarity relationship in multiple sub setups (see page 17). In my setup, I discovered that the front sub pair and the rear sub pair had reversed polarity. Changing the polarity on one sub pair resulted in a noticeable difference in the subs' ability to pressurize the room. Give it a try.

Last edited by AustinJerry; 08-25-2016 at 03:36 PM.
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post #20272 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 09:04 AM
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Don't be silly, around here there's a way to measure ANYTHING:
The VibSensor Accelerometer Test Thread
Michael
Sorry, while I acknowledge the existence of VS, it is a rabbit hole I don't want to go down.
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post #20273 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 09:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
I've recently been through this same type of situation. I bet music sounds fantastic, and has clear punchy bass. Try something out that has a nice bass kick in it and tell me if I'm right. When I EQ'd to a flat line like you have (though mine was not nearly as flat as nice as yours looks), I noticed, I too was lacking bass down low.

@PlasmaPZ80U showed me the House Curve feature of REW in the preferences page. Applying a house curve seems to help dramatically with HT Bass. Why dont you give that a shot and see how you do?
I don't have a flat curve. It is a house curve. Yes its flat up to 70 but then it goes down by 8dB by the time it reaches to 300 Hz.

Listening to music, the bass is awesome and punchy. Absolutely perfect. Movies though, gets a bit boomy. Why would this happen?
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post #20274 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 09:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Another thing you might want to test is the phase relationship between the two subs. I recently added a section to the MiniDSP 2x4 setup guide linked in my sig on how to measure and test the phase relationship in multiple sub setups (see page 17). In my setup, I discovered that the front sub pair and the rear sub pair were 180 degrees out of phase. reversing the polarity on one sub pair resulted in a noticeable difference in the subs' ability to pressurize the room. Give it a try.
Ok. Will read your guide now. I'm assuming that you took reading on both subs and overlayed them to see the phase issue? Where were they out of phase? Do you by any chance have FR to show before/after?

Edit: Just gave a quick glimpse. You have all to info needed in the guide. Much appreciated Jerry.
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post #20275 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by filya View Post
I don't have a flat curve. It is a house curve. Yes its flat up to 70 but then it goes down by 8dB by the time it reaches to 300 Hz.

Listening to music, the bass is awesome and punchy. Absolutely perfect. Movies though, gets a bit boomy. Why would this happen?
movies have ample LFE content often very hot and has alot of low end, 2ch music doesn't have an LFE channel, just 2ch of bass management

Current Setup REW measures

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings

Samsung UN46EH6030; Yamaha HTR-3066, SVS Prime Bookshelf Mains and Prime Center, Cambridge S20 Surrounds, Rythmik LV12R; PS4 Slim, Xbox One, Xfinity X1 (CI CXD01ANI)
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post #20276 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
Looks like you measured channel 4. Channel 4 is always 10db hot by design.
I was referring to his full range CC+sub measurement

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post #20277 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 09:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
movies have ample LFE content often very hot and has alot of low end, 2ch music doesn't have an LFE channel, just 2ch of bass management
but even in this case, if main is crossovered (say at 80), bass will be directed to subs and make it produce bass. In this case, if sub is producing boomy bass, it will sound the same. Might not have too much bass as compared to movies (since it has a .1 channel) but will definitely come into play. Therefore, any song that has good low bass should sound boomy if sub is producing boomy bass noooo??????
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post #20278 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by filya View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
movies have ample LFE content often very hot and has alot of low end, 2ch music doesn't have an LFE channel, just 2ch of bass management
but even in this case, if main is crossovered (say at 80), bass will be directed to subs and make it produce bass. In this case, if sub is producing boomy bass, it will sound the same. Might not have too much bass as compared to movies (since it has a .1 channel) but will definitely come into play. Therefore, any song that has good low bass should sound boomy if sub is producing boomy bass noooo??????
The difference between 2ch music and 5.1ch or higher movie soundtracks is both the sheer quantity of bass and how much of it goes quite deep with exaggerated low end for low frequency effects.

2ch music can still sound boomy/muddy if the sub is not setup right, but it may not be as dramatic as with movies. I guess you have to figure out what is causing the boominess before you can fix it. First thing to check is the sw level to see if it is too high relative to the speakers. Next I would check frequency response and waterfall graphs to see if room modes and the resulting resonances at those frequencies is responsible. If so, placement and EQ might need optimization.
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post #20279 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 10:24 AM
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Reposting default target curves comparison/average.

I never bother with obsessing over a flat curve. It won't be flat when you move the mic anyway. My goal is ±5dB between 10-200Hz. Personally, I boosted LFE 8dB over what Audyssey SubEQ set. I have two catacorner loaded PSA S1500s and two B1200d MBMs against sidewalls right in front of listening position. I have PSAs on sub1 and MBMs on sub2 so Audy is not even EQing below ~50Hz. 3000ft³ sealed room… cabin gain gives me response down to 6Hz (My UMIK is not CSL calibrated, yet).

IMO ±6dB across listening positions is good. Be careful chasing ULF by EQing and boosting LFE as you can run out of headroom quickly. 20-200Hz is much more important than <20Hz.

Edit: I added Eartquake mini shakers to each reclining seat for more TR.
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Last edited by Marc Alexander; 08-25-2016 at 10:31 AM.
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post #20280 of 22221 Old 08-25-2016, 10:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Another thing you might want to test is the phase relationship between the two subs. I recently added a section to the MiniDSP 2x4 setup guide linked in my sig on how to measure and test the phase relationship in multiple sub setups (see page 17). In my setup, I discovered that the front sub pair and the rear sub pair were 180 degrees out of phase. reversing the polarity on one sub pair resulted in a noticeable difference in the subs' ability to pressurize the room. Give it a try.
Just did the testing. Doesn't seem to have any phase issue. One interesting bit of info though is that I had to set lower limit to -.021 instead of .001 to get the straight line to start from (image below). Other than that, it seems like I have no phase issue.

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