Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 677 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old Today, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I don't see anything wrong with your graphs. How would you define and measure "punchiness"? BTW, a good track to assess what I think you mean by punchiness is the first track on Haim's album "Days are Gone". On my system, the bass "pressurizes" the room.
Listened to "days are gone" from Amazon. At the beginning Bass seemed fine but after 30 secsonds the section sounded as if Bass wasn't as clear. It was impactful and I could hear the low frequency imactp but it didn't sound very clean. Does it sound very clean in your system? I think I"m getting good check slam from my mains instead of my subs.

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Old Today, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
movies have ample LFE content often very hot and has alot of low end, 2ch music doesn't have an LFE channel, just 2ch of bass management
Think about what you just said. True, music doesn't have a LFE track. But bass management combines LFE with re-directed bass and outputs it all to the same sub channel. Your sub has no way of knowing whether the bass came from LFE or from the redirected signal.

What may be different is that the lower the bass signal, the more likely room modes at very low frequencies may be coming into play. This would happen whether the source were movies or music, and whether it was LFE or re-directed.
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Old Today, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by filya View Post
Listened to "days are gone" from Amazon. At the beginning Bass seemed fine but after 30 secsonds the section sounded as if Bass wasn't as clear. It was impactful and I could hear the low frequency imactp but it didn't sound very clean. Does it sound very clean in your system? I think I"m getting good check slam from my mains instead of my subs.

My FLR speakers
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/c...way/4722_4722n
You should not be getting any slam from the mains at all. Frequencies below the crossover should be going to the subs, and the mains shouldn't be getting any of the low bass frequencies.

Unless, of course, your mains are set to Large, or you have "double bass" configured. If either of these are true, we would be getting closer to understanding what is wrong with your bass.
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Old Today, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
You should not be getting any slam from the mains at all. Frequencies below the crossover should be going to the subs, and the mains shouldn't be getting any of the low bass frequencies.

Unless, of course, your mains are set to Large, or you have "double bass" configured. If either of these are true, we would be getting closer to understanding what is wrong with your bass.
nope nope. Mains were set to small. It was just a guess that that mains are producing good mid-bass to cause a good check slam. Thought, after reading you post, I set mains to Large to see how it does and it has punchier bass. May be 8dB is a bit too much? May be I should recalibrate Dirac. I had to move sub and it might be caueing it. FR doesn't show it but oh well. I do have a Dirac question. I"ll post it on 88-a thread. See you there Jerry .
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Old Today, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
movies have ample LFE content often very hot and has alot of low end, 2ch music doesn't have an LFE channel, just 2ch of bass management
Think about what you just said. True, music doesn't have a LFE track. But bass management combines LFE with re-directed bass and outputs it all to the same sub channel. Your sub has no way of knowing whether the bass came from LFE or from the redirected signal.

What may be different is that the lower the bass signal, the more likely room modes at very low frequencies may be coming into play. This would happen whether the source were movies or music, and whether it was LFE or re-directed.
Yeah, I think you're right. What I have noticed though is when I hear music within a movie soundtrack, it has more bass and sometimes seems deeper too. I wonder if they add LFE to the music within movies to make it stand out more. This is commonly observed by me in comedies that have lots of music. Even in some movie trailers.
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
But bass management combines LFE with re-directed bass and outputs it all to the same sub channel.
Bass from the LFE channel is played back 10dB louder than bass re-directed from any other channel.

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Old Today, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
But bass management combines LFE with re-directed bass and outputs it all to the same sub channel.
Bass from the LFE channel is played back 10dB louder than bass re-directed from any other channel.
Maybe that's the difference I'm hearing between the two
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Old Today, 12:22 PM
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Bass from the LFE channel is played back 10dB louder than bass re-directed from any other channel.
True, but the LFE channel is encoded 10dB lower on the disk, so it should be a wash.

My point is that bass is bass, and just because it's coming from a movie sound track vs. a music track doesn't mean it should sound worse.
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Old Today, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Maybe that's the difference I'm hearing between the two
Yup, it's not unusual to see target curves for music listening have more of a bass boost than target curves for movie watching (to make up for the lack of LFE).

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Old Today, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
True, but the LFE channel is encoded 10dB lower on the disk, so it should be a wash.
While being mixed at the studio, the LFE channel is the same level as the other channels (it can't be 10dB louder otherwise it would clip). However, it is monitored 10dB louder than other channels (LFE subs are calibrated 10dB louder than L/C/R and surround speakers). During playback, this 10dB difference is recreated as part of bass management. Reference level for LFE bass is 115dB; reference level for bass from any other channels is 105dB.
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My point is that bass is bass, and just because it's coming from a movie sound track vs. a music track doesn't mean it should sound worse.
Not a question of better or worse, just a difference in amount/level of bass. A 2-channel track is missing a couple things when it comes to bass: an additional channel consisting solely of bass AND that channel being played back 10dB louder than the other channels. Those two additional things would make for an audible difference between a 2.0 track and a 2.1 track. A target curve that sounds just right for music could end up sounding bloated with movies.

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Old Today, 03:02 PM
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Just did the testing. Doesn't seem to have any phase issue. One interesting bit of info though is that I had to set lower limit to -.021 instead of .001 to get the straight line to start from (image below). Other than that, it seems like I have no phase issue.

That is an impulse response, this doesn't show phase
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Old Today, 03:05 PM
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Don't be silly, around here there's a way to measure ANYTHING:
The VibSensor Accelerometer Test Thread
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I wouldn't use vs to measure punch. IMV punch is predominantly transient response aka great integration between sub and mains (not just "they sum OK in amplitude") though it may also mean a mid sub bass (80-100Hz) hump in FR
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That is an impulse response, this doesn't show phase
Perhaps my terminology was not correct. If you recall, a number of months back you looked at my impulse response and concluded that my two sub pairs had reversed polarity, based on the impulse response measurements. I was attempting to provide a procedure that others could use to test whether they had a similar polarity issue. So what should I call the procedure, a "polarity check"?
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Did some work to try and level out my bass response. I used a PEQ cut to bring down one of the peaks. Then I increased the sub level to result in a slightly better level frequency response. However it looks like that caused a few other issues I need to work with regarding the 80hz area, aka where the sub crosses over to the mains...

These graphs are with no smoothing.

Before:



After:




Any thoughts on what to monkey with next would be much appreciated.

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Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
Did some work to try and level out my bass response. I used a PEQ cut to bring down one of the peaks. Then I increased the sub level to result in a slightly better level frequency response. However it looks like that caused a few other issues I need to work with regarding the 80hz area, aka where the sub crosses over to the mains...

These graphs are with no smoothing.



Any thoughts on what to monkey with next would be much appreciated.
Yes, IMO the "before" looks much better.
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Old Today, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
Did some work to try and level out my bass response. I used a PEQ cut to bring down one of the peaks. Then I increased the sub level to result in a slightly better level frequency response. However it looks like that caused a few other issues I need to work with regarding the 80hz area, aka where the sub crosses over to the mains...

These graphs are with no smoothing.

Any thoughts on what to monkey with next would be much appreciated.
Very hard to compare the two since they have such different limits settings. The first is 15-196hz and the second is 17-336hz.

Try to keep the limits the same on both graphs to make them easier to compare. Overlaying the two might be even more helpful in this situation.
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Yes, IMO the "before" looks much better.
Yeah, I realized I think the "BEFORE" is smoothed, whereas the "AFTER" was not

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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Very hard to compare the two since they have such different limits settings. The first is 15-196hz and the second is 17-336hz.

Try to keep the limits the same on both graphs to make them easier to compare. Overlaying the two might be even more helpful in this situation.
Will do in a min. Problem is I dont think I kept the volume the same so the "AFTER" will at min be louder......

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Old Today, 04:31 PM
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Yeah, I realized I think the "BEFORE" is smoothed, whereas the "AFTER" was not



Will do in a min. Problem is I dont think I kept the volume the same so the "AFTER" will at min be louder......
You can adjust levels using the offset tool in the Settings icon.
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Ok I think the graphs are funky and won't show stuff right.

For taking a measurement with ASIO is it best to do it L + Sub, R + Sub, C + Sub, L & R + sub? What's the standard?

I think I may be mixing and matching my measurements I.E. one set with Center and Sub, the other w Left and Sub....

I'm trying to work on integrating the sub with my L/R best so which speakers should I be using to measure and adjust with?
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Ok I think the graphs are funky and won't show stuff right.

For taking a measurement with ASIO is it best to do it L + Sub, R + Sub, C + Sub, L & R + sub? What's the standard?

I think I may be mixing and matching my measurements I.E. one set with Center and Sub, the other w Left and Sub....

I'm trying to work on integrating the sub with my L/R best so which speakers should I be using to measure and adjust with?
By "integrate", I assume you mean selecting the best crossover value and then optimizing the response around the crossover by adjusting the sub delay (the sub distance tweak).

For this, I normally use Center+Subs. This is because most bass is mono, so bass is directed towards the center channel. Set your crossover and then tweak the sub distance, looking for smoothest response in the crossover region. Once you have that optimized, check the response of Left+Subs and Right+Subs to make sure it still looks reasonable. If there is some variance, I would stick with the settings that optimizes Center+Subs.

Then generate the Waterfall graph for all three measurements to see whether bass resonance is an issue.
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