Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 678 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #20311 of 20332 Old 08-26-2016, 06:09 PM
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This is a trick Markus showed me. It works very well for time aligning. I just picked the left or right channel and set a crossover (I use 80Hz to minimize IMD), then gradually increased my sub's distance checking the attached excess group delay plot each time.

After that, I changed my crossover slope frequency on my XMC-1 and did it all over again! Then I picked the best REW plot (probably had 20 plots) that had the most coherent phase and flattest excess group delay and lastly flattest amplitude. You can't just use amplitude at the 3dB crossover point by itself (I mean what if there was a dip there due to the room, and you kept trying to correct this dip by changing distance, never would, but you would likely pass the point of proper time alignment).

My room is very well treated as the attached excess delay plot is with no room correction software engaged (the other plots are with dirac engaged though).

For me, I found the best possible results by doing the above, then letting my PC do the room correction using the Dirac Live software. This means Dirac sees the left speaker + sub for the left channel so Dirac corrects everything together. I know this is backwards from every processor I've had, but man does it measure better.

The blue plots are from when I just let the XMC-1 and Dirac do everything, and it wasn't too bad, but there's a definite improvement in phase coherence and the waterfall plot (and even amplitude).

I still have a room issue near 200Hz (even though the amplitude is fixed by Dirac, Dirac did it at the expense of phase), but it is the most accurate bass I have ever heard/felt!

Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
Ok I think the graphs are funky and won't show stuff right.

For taking a measurement with ASIO is it best to do it L + Sub, R + Sub, C + Sub, L & R + sub? What's the standard?

I think I may be mixing and matching my measurements I.E. one set with Center and Sub, the other w Left and Sub....

I'm trying to work on integrating the sub with my L/R best so which speakers should I be using to measure and adjust with?
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Last edited by etc6849; 08-26-2016 at 06:22 PM.
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post #20312 of 20332 Old 08-26-2016, 06:44 PM
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Use the Java sound drivers in REW preferences. You should see Streaming show up in the Dirac audio processor (DAP) when REW is doing the sweep. Also I wouldn't output the DAP to your ASIO soundcard driver. This is far to buggy (for me too) and not what's recommended when I read the Dirac Live manual.

Also, just spend your $750 on some cheap fabric and bulk 4'x2' 4" OC 703 insulation, and then just wrap them with burlap making 4" and 8" (two 4" pieces back to back). Later, you can stack two 8" pieces together for even more bass correction. I personally like having Dirac, but my system never sounded perfect (e.g. jaw dropping and real) until I had a lot of bass traps and absorption on the walls (ceiling and walls at the first reflection points). No reason to buy ready made bass traps with frame as they are a joke in comparison to what you get with a bulk OC 703 order.

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Originally Posted by GuidingGod View Post
Thanks for taking the time Jerry, much appreciated. Speaker placement unfortunately is dictated by the lady of the house so sort of non negotiable. The sub though is small and can be moved around if needed. I think a second sub of the same type will be the next splurge when funds allow.

In the meantime, I downloaded Dirac Live free trial for PC (since it is the main source for playback in this setup, containing all bluray rips and flac music et al). I ran through the setup, did the measurements and saved the target curve filters. There is a definite improvement in sound when listening to music...specifically, some vocals sound like a veil was removed. Secondly, there is some lessening of echoing (resonance? possibly because of the hard floor surface?) that I felt I was hearing before. Not sure how much is user bias but I really do feel I'm hearing an improvement.

A couple of questions:
(1) How do I do a reading in REW now, with Dirac filters engaged? I want to see what difference it has made on the graphs. But when I use Dirac as the default sound output in windows, REW refuses to measure anything, it just shuts down. I set the Dirac to output to ASIO. (attaching a couple of screenshots)

(2) Will spending funds, when they are available, on room treatments pay more dividends, more so than spending them on other things like Dirac for this setup, in your opinion?

Thanks again for taking the time.

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Last edited by etc6849; 08-26-2016 at 06:54 PM.
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post #20313 of 20332 Old 08-27-2016, 12:56 PM
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OK, so I went and got some new measurements which I think look a LOT better. I dialed in the distance setting with the center and actually went from 8.7 to 11.7 as it looked better overall. I've attached my "final" graphs of todays tweaking. Basically I ended up with almost what I started with. I removed the PEQ I had added around 20hz to try and fix another null, but there was no way to fix that and instead it increased the 25 and below range quite a bit, which I'd prefer to have as flat as possible.

So I moved the PEQ back to around 20hz as a cut to even out that area.

I think its really good, but would love others thoughts....

Here was what I was starting out with initially.



After dialing in the distance I ended up with these:

Center & Sub:




Left/Rigt & Sub:



Both graphs overlaid on each other:



And finally my initial measurement of Center + Sub and my Final Measurements overlaid on each other:


My Setup

 

 

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post #20314 of 20332 Old 08-27-2016, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
OK, so I went and got some new measurements which I think look a LOT better. I dialed in the distance setting with the center and actually went from 8.7 to 11.7 as it looked better overall. I've attached my "final" graphs of todays tweaking. Basically I ended up with almost what I started with. I removed the PEQ I had added around 20hz to try and fix another null, but there was no way to fix that and instead it increased the 25 and below range quite a bit, which I'd prefer to have as flat as possible.

So I moved the PEQ back to around 20hz as a cut to even out that area.

I think its really good, but would love others thoughts....

Here was what I was starting out with initially.



After dialing in the distance I ended up with these:

Center & Sub:




Left/Rigt & Sub:



Both graphs overlaid on each other:



And finally my initial measurement of Center + Sub and my Final Measurements overlaid on each other:

I think it looks really good! The difference between the before and after looks minimal to me, but it does look like you flattened out the 20hz-30hz a couple decibels. Have you been able to tell any difference in sound between the before and after? What subwoofer are you using?

My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
===========================================
Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44
Fronts: B&W 684 S1 — Center: B&W CM Center S2
Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rhythmic FV15HP
Rear Surrounds: Polk Audio T15 — Front Heights: Polk Audio T15
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post #20315 of 20332 Old 08-27-2016, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
I think it looks really good! The difference between the before and after looks minimal to me, but it does look like you flattened out the 20hz-30hz a couple decibels. Have you been able to tell any difference in sound between the before and after? What subwoofer are you using?
Haven't spent much time with it since I did this today. Was on a father/daughter date for most of the night and just got home and am putting the other little one to bed.

I'm hoping it makes a difference lol.

More than anything I really wish I had someone else better at this than me to help me get my L/R/C optimally dialed in, as I'm sure thats where the MOST improvement would be lol.

This will be interesting to see how it looks next week as I will have my second sub up and running hopefully which means I will need to redo XT32, and then redo my distances and all my REW measurements lol.......

My Setup

 

 

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post #20316 of 20332 Old Yesterday, 10:12 AM
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I a fairly new user of REW and these are the first graphs I have posted so I hope I haven't screwed anything up. I just purchased a new pair of Goldenear Triton one's and was using REW to try to find the best placement. I kept noticing a difference between the left and right no matter what the placement. So I decided to try to measure and compare the speakers using a close mic technique I had read about. I placed each speaker in the same spot as far from walls as possible and used the left channel on the amp. I placed the mic at mid & tweeter height at a distance of 5 feet and used a window time of 5ms although this made readings below 200 hz unusable. I placed 4" 703 panels on each side of the mic about 2' away and one on the floor in front of the mic. The results are very repeatable and show a difference between the speakers. My question, is this difference big enough to worry about? I am attaching two graphs showing the difference. First graph with same input level and second with 2.5 db lower input to right speaker. I would appreciate any comments on the difference and on my measurement technique.
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post #20317 of 20332 Old Yesterday, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
I have a question about dual sub placement. (Right now the measurement is with only one sub at different positions though).
The green in the below FR is the best position I have and I have placed the sub there.
I was wondering which is the best position for second (identical) sub among the blue, red and purple.
Appreciate your inputs
Bumping for you for some feedback. Blue looks best to me. Too many valleys in Red and Purple positions.

Anyone else agree or disagree?
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post #20318 of 20332 Old Today, 03:37 AM
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Sorry, guys. I read the first page, but do not understand. I have HTPC connected to the Denon AVR by HDMI. I installed ASIO4ALL to PC. But can not understand how to measure Front+sub and how to calibrate audiocard/mic (if I have to do it). Thanks for help.
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post #20319 of 20332 Old Today, 03:41 AM
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I can not post links but here my current results in Java mode - i.imgur.com/1msVmUs.jpg
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post #20320 of 20332 Old Today, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sstyle View Post
Sorry, guys. I read the first page, but do not understand.
There's some, but not a lot, of value in reading through the whole thread. Everything you need to know to take measuements is in @AustinJerry 's guide, which is in his signature (for the latest) and here for convenience.
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post #20321 of 20332 Old Today, 05:13 AM
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I see. Where I can find his guide? Thanks for REW manual!

Now I het 3 measurements FL,FR,Sub.
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post #20322 of 20332 Old Today, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
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I see. Where I can find his guide? Thanks for REW manual!

Now I het 3 measurements FL,FR,Sub.
The guide and what you are calling the manual are the same thing.
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post #20323 of 20332 Old Today, 07:13 AM
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I see. Ok. Thank you very much. What can you cay about this graph:
1) FR+FL+SW: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0k0lb5fw31...fore2.jpg?dl=0
2) FR+FL: https://www.dropbox.com/s/veerlvrcfffnx6k/FLFR.jpg?dl=0

My room: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5frh6fu9aqdnrry/room.jpg?dl=0

I see there a peak at 45Hz

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post #20324 of 20332 Old Today, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sstyle View Post
I see. Ok. Thank you very much. What can you cay about this graph:

1) FR+FL+SW: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0k0lb5fw31...fore2.jpg?dl=0

2) FR+FL: https://www.dropbox.com/s/veerlvrcfffnx6k/FLFR.jpg?dl=0



My room: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5frh6fu9aqdnrry/room.jpg?dl=0



I see there a peak at 45Hz


Looks like you're not taking measurements at a loud enough volume. You want the volume such that in the generator with pink noise, sub calibration checked, and level at -12 for ch1,2,3,5,6,7,8 or -22 for ch4, when playing the SPL should be 40 or 50 higher than whatever it is when silent. Should be about 50-55 when silent so should read 90-93 when playing the pink noise. First do this, then remeasure.

My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
===========================================
Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44
Fronts: B&W 684 S1 — Center: B&W CM Center S2
Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rhythmic FV15HP
Rear Surrounds: Polk Audio T15 — Front Heights: Polk Audio T15
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post #20325 of 20332 Old Today, 11:55 AM
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I have no SPL meter, so I can not check the actual level But I set volume level on AVR = 60. It is very loud when I listening a music.

Denon AVR x4000: B&W CM9 + B&W LCP600 + B&W DM600 S3 + B&W ASW-300
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post #20326 of 20332 Old Today, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
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I have no SPL meter, so I can not check the actual level But I set volume level on AVR = 60. It is very loud when I listening a music.
There is actually an SPL within REW in the top middle set of tools. You can use that along with the generator to get the proper master volume level on the AVR/pre-amp

Step by step instructions are on page 63 at the top of the REW guide.

My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
===========================================
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Fronts: B&W 684 S1 — Center: B&W CM Center S2
Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rhythmic FV15HP
Rear Surrounds: Polk Audio T15 — Front Heights: Polk Audio T15
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post #20327 of 20332 Old Today, 12:35 PM
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Are you sure about 63 page? There is another information. And I have no UMIK-1. I use a mic ACM1HB from my Denon AVR

Denon AVR x4000: B&W CM9 + B&W LCP600 + B&W DM600 S3 + B&W ASW-300
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post #20328 of 20332 Old Today, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
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Are you sure about 63 page? There is another information. And I have no UMIK-1. I use a mic ACM1HB from my Denon AVR
Everything referenced in the guide pertains to users having a USB mic, either the UMIK-1 or the UMM-6. The mic you reference is an Audyssey mic, and is generally not considered appropriate for use with REW. If you are serious about using REW, consider getting a proper mic.
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post #20329 of 20332 Old Today, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sstyle View Post
I have no SPL meter, so I can not check the actual level But I set volume level on AVR = 60. It is very loud when I listening a music.
At 60 MV on your AVR that's actually -22 decibels from reference (105) which could sound loud. Most folks here use the relative volume setting versus the absolute that you're using. Absolute volume at reference is 82 which is loud, same as 0 in relative terms. You can change this in your AVR if you choose to do so, under volume setup menu. I also would suggest you get a UMIK-1, Audy mic can't (shouldn't) be used in conjunction with REW.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Bumping for you for some feedback. Blue looks best to me. Too many valleys in Red and Purple positions.

Anyone else agree or disagree?
Looks like everyone is busy...
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post #20331 of 20332 Old Today, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
Looks like everyone is busy...
I feel my advice is sound😀
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post #20332 of 20332 Old Today, 07:35 PM
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I feel my advice is sound😀
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