Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 682 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #20431 of 23032 Old 09-14-2016, 11:34 AM
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HDMI 1 = L
" 2 = R
" 3 = C
" 4 = Sub
" 5 = LS
" 6 = RS
" 7 = LR
" 8 = RR

If you want to measure just your subs only set HDMI 4, you could go into your AVR setup menu and set the LPF of the LFE to highest value or off if you have that option and the signal will only play through the sub channel, sweep output level will also be 10 dB higher than regular sweep so you may want to adjust for this or not. Hope that helps some.
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post #20432 of 23032 Old 09-14-2016, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
HDMI 1 = L
" 2 = R
" 3 = C
" 4 = Sub
" 5 = LS
" 6 = RS
" 7 = LR
" 8 = RR

If you want to measure just your subs only set HDMI 4, you could go into your AVR setup menu and set the LPF of the LFE to highest value or off if you have that option and the signal will only play through the sub channel, sweep output level will also be 10 dB higher than regular sweep so you may want to adjust for this or not. Hope that helps some.

Spot on Jeff.

For the OP; keep in mind that CH4 is the LFE channel (not just "sub") and will output 10dB higher than the other channels...adjust your master volume (MV) accordingly.

Typically, you will want to measure the sub + a main channel, usually the center channel (CC). To do this, output to CH3 with bass management on (speaker set to small with an appropriate crossover set).
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post #20433 of 23032 Old 09-14-2016, 11:54 AM
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My adventures with REW

Firstly a big thank you to @AustinJerry for such a comprehensive guide. It’s commendable how much effort he has put in this guide and the other ones- not only authoring but also painstakingly updating them.

My adventure with REW started many years ago but it’s always been limited to the SPL response and using them to tweak crossover settings. Now, with hdmi and this excellent guide, I am learning to make sense of the waterfall, ETC, impulse response and how to tweak the room not just the electronics. Since the frequency curves always get more coverage, I thought I would post some of my findings with the decay in my room.

Below is the waterfall for left+right+sub with no EQ in place. My noise floor is between 45-50 db, so I ran the measurements loud as u can see. My speakers are 104db efficient so going loud wasn’t a problem- especially since I was outside!

First the spectrogram- right of MLP



As you can see there is a problem frequency at 55 hz and then at a smaller level at 100hz. Also if you examine for horizontal uniformity, there is a problem at about 68hz- seems to be a null of some sorts. I am not worrying too much about the problem region of 15-25 hz.

From the guide- “
(… avoid frequencies below 20Hz, which always exhibit excessive ringing). If the line is at or below 450ms, bass ringing is generally “under control”. Also look at the horizontal uniformity of the Spectrogram colors. If the colors are general smooth horizontally, the decay is balanced across the frequency spectrum. A rough, jagged line would represent an opportunity for better control of bass ringing at certain frequencies. “

I took 3 measurements at the MLP for this and though they do not look identical you can see that the problem is apparent in all of them. The next 2 are for mid and left of MLP.





For comparison here is the SPL for the three positions. Black is the average of the three. It’s interesting how the graph is consistent till about 80 and then fluctuates so much!



Next we look at the waterfall. The highest level was about 120, so I took the lower limit about 40db down to 80. Choosing the lower limit is kind of tricky since it totally changes the graph. Here are two extreme examples where lower limit is 80db and 40db. Same measurements just different lower limits.





Obviously it takes much, much longer for the level to fall to 40db. As I see it, the noise floor of my room is around 40-50 db, at max I would listen at 75db reference, so for my usual listening the range would be about 80-40 db (average reading- disregarding transient peaks).

However, because the noise would skew the lower part of the waterfall, I shift everything up by 30db, 120-80db. The guide also has details on this and recommends at least 90db. It doesnt really matter though to nitpick to get the exact values- the problems will be apparent enough.

From the guide- “…For a Waterfall graph to show meaningful information, the original measurement level needs to be high enough. A general rule is that there should be at least 40dB between the measurement level and the noise floor. If you are using 45dB as the noise floor, then your mic should be calibrated to at least 85dB, and 90dB or 95dB provides even more headroom (although much louder).”

The average for the freq response posted above is about 103db from the SPL.



So back to the waterfall and you can see the same problems as in the spectrogram.



Here is the same curve for 300ms.



Reasoning being that the lower frequencies take more time to decay compared to the mids. I don’t remember where I read this- perhaps the guide again! It said that the standard for lower freq was 450 and mids was 300ms.

Ok, so this means that I need to take care of the ringing at 55hz and 100 hz, the null at around 65hz. This region is around the crossover region- so playing with the crossover point, slopes and phase could take care of the problem. Also, more than the room, this is a known problem with my subwoofer itself- it has ringing at 54hz and at 100. My crossover setting was 55hz for these readings.

Now we look at decay. From the guide- “
Again drawing from the Paul Spencer articles, a good objective for the Decay graph is to have all bass resonances -20dB within the first 160ms. “

Nothing new to see here. Same results consistent with the waterfall and spectrogram.



Additional information

Subwoofer is a DTS-10, mains is JBL 3772, sides are the jbl 8330. It’s a dedicated media room, with bass traps on front corners, top side walls, and some on rear walls.

My mains are 104db and currently I am getting a hiss from the fronts. Its apparent in the lower passages- this is what it looks like with amps switched on and no inputs to them (I forget if the projector was on during this time).

The red line is the threshold of hearing (from wiki- search for loudness curve), so the left hand side doesn’t matter.


Last edited by artinaz; 09-14-2016 at 11:58 AM.
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post #20434 of 23032 Old 09-14-2016, 01:34 PM
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To measure just your subs use HDMI 4 not 8, that's your rear channel
I guess that would be my problem then and explains a lot, thank you

I'm confused as to what the proper way to measure each channel with the sub is as well. When I play just HDMI1 (left channel), if I start the sweep below the crossover the subwoofer automatically plays due to the bass management in the receiver. Is that the proper way to measure it, or should I also add in HDMI4 and do the sweep with both to get a true measurement? I ask because I thought with just HDMI1 it'd show the proper response, but the response below 35hz is much lower than with the subwoofer on it's own (which seems to follow just my speakers), and when I add in HDMI4 the lower frequencies are greatly reinforced in the graph. I'm just not sure if I'm doing it correctly since the sub plays with just the left speaker selected.

Sorry for the noob questions, I'm on my second read through of the guide now and finding more things I've missed from the first time.

*Edit, responded off my email notification and just saw afterward you and Alan already gave me advice, also helped explain why I was seeing a huge bass boost when measuring with HDMI4 due to the 10db LFE increase.
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My setup: Sonus Faber Venere 2.5 and center, Ascend HTM200SE surround, NHT atmos minis, dual Rythmik L12's, Pioneer SC-95, Outlaw M200, Samsung PN60F8500

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post #20435 of 23032 Old 09-14-2016, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by brianmlamb View Post
*Edit, responded off my email notification and just saw afterward you and Alan already gave me advice, also helped explain why I was seeing a huge bass boost when measuring with HDMI4 due to the 10db LFE increase.


So, did you still have questions?
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post #20436 of 23032 Old 09-14-2016, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artinaz View Post
Below is the waterfall for left+right+sub with no EQ in place. My noise floor is between 45-50 db, so I ran the measurements loud as u can see. My speakers are 104db efficient so going loud wasn’t a problem- especially since I was outside!
Do you normally listen without EQ? If not, why aren't you measuring with EQ??

I'm not quite sure what kind of feedback you are looking for here...but that giant dip at 55hz-ish isn't doing you any favors. You need to alter your sub placement to try and alleviate that dip.
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post #20437 of 23032 Old 09-14-2016, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post


So, did you still have questions?
I'm sure I'll have many to come along with asking for advice, but figure I should go make a proper set of measurements first given my hdmi misunderstanding. I picked up a minidsp 2x4 to experiment with as well and seem to have gotten it working and setup right thanks to Jerry's other guides. Thanks for your help Alan!
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My setup: Sonus Faber Venere 2.5 and center, Ascend HTM200SE surround, NHT atmos minis, dual Rythmik L12's, Pioneer SC-95, Outlaw M200, Samsung PN60F8500
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post #20438 of 23032 Old 09-14-2016, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Do you normally listen without EQ? If not, why aren't you measuring with EQ??

I'm not quite sure what kind of feedback you are looking for here...but that giant dip at 55hz-ish isn't doing you any favors. You need to alter your sub placement to try and alleviate that dip.
I could of course engage EQ! The reason not to eq for these was to find improvements in the room before EQ comes to rescue. Final measurements will be with EQ to see what diff room correction software made. I hope to post those soon.

The ringing at 55hz is inherent in the sub- changing room placement wont help. see here for analysis on data-bass.

I was posting my graphs to see if I was missing something obvious and possibly help others going thru the same exercise.
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post #20439 of 23032 Old 09-14-2016, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by artinaz View Post
I could of course engage EQ! The reason not to eq for these was to find improvements in the room before EQ comes to rescue. Final measurements will be with EQ to see what diff room correction software made. I hope to post those soon.

The ringing at 55hz is inherent in the sub- changing room placement wont help. see here for analysis on data-bass.

I was posting my graphs to see if I was missing something obvious and possibly help others going thru the same exercise.
My apologies...I meant the giant dip at ~65hz. The ringing at 55hz may very well be able to be controlled by placement as well. It is really not that significant IMO, you were measuring at crazy high levels and barely tickling 450ms.

If you want to optimize your response before EQ, I would start with sub placement. IMO you have some work to do.
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post #20440 of 23032 Old 09-14-2016, 08:12 PM
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Such a great thread...
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post #20441 of 23032 Old 09-16-2016, 02:34 PM
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Latest and greatest Audyssey XT32 cal; average of L&R in room w/no treatments. Thanks to everyone on the thread for their helpful comments.

Marantz 7708
B&K Reference 4430
Onix Reference 3's
Rythmik F15HP

Last edited by bmcn; 09-16-2016 at 03:48 PM.
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post #20442 of 23032 Old 09-16-2016, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by bmcn View Post
Latest and greatest Audyssey XT32 cal; average of L&R in room w/no treatments. Thanks to everyone on the thread for their helpful comments.

Marantz 7708
B&K Reference 4430
Onix Reference 3's
Rythmik F15HP
Typically the measurement would be taken with DEQ off, and separate measurements for left and right, not an average of both.
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post #20443 of 23032 Old 09-16-2016, 05:12 PM
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L&R; Dyn Eq OFF, 1/6 smoothing.
Edit: correct jpeg
Thanks. There are a few spots that need some work. What are your plans?
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Thanks. There are a few spots that need some work. What are your plans?
Depending on the opportunity, adding a 2nd sub, amp upgrade, or preamp upgrade. Room is irregular shape and primary focal point of house, so room altering options are limited. Another consideration is the probability in next 1-3 years of moving, so adding another 15" sub might not be a good choice over the longer term.

Forgetting the above for a moment, what are your suggestions for improvement?
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post #20445 of 23032 Old 09-16-2016, 06:33 PM
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Depending on the opportunity, adding a 2nd sub, amp upgrade, or preamp upgrade. Room is irregular shape and primary focal point of house, so room altering options are limited. Another consideration is the probability in next 1-3 years of moving, so adding another 15" sub might not be a good choice over the longer term.

Forgetting the above for a moment, what are your suggestions for improvement?
Additional subs are a proven approach for smoothing out the bass response.
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post #20446 of 23032 Old 09-17-2016, 09:06 AM
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L&R; Dyn Eq OFF, 1/6 smoothing.
Edit: correct jpeg
Can you please repost the graph with the proper 5dB steps on the left hand side? The current 2dB steps are exaggerating the frequency swings, making it difficult to pinpoint the problem areas.
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post #20447 of 23032 Old 09-17-2016, 09:48 AM
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Thanks, Alan; it's typically an iterative process for me.
L&R; Dyn Eq OFF, 1/6 smoothing.
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post #20448 of 23032 Old 09-18-2016, 08:02 AM
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Thanks, Alan; it's typically an iterative process for me.
L&R; Dyn Eq OFF, 1/6 smoothing.
Are you concerned about the bass frequency swings or the higher-frequency swings? (below 200Hz vs above) Because you do have that big swing right after 200Hz.

The former is best fixed with multiple subs, IMO. I'm thinking of adding 2 SVS tube subs (for a total of six) because bass. They seem like they would be awesome in the rear corners. (In reality, I'd repurpose the 2 non-matching subs ;-)

The latter would need to be addressed with room treatments, AIUI.
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post #20449 of 23032 Old 09-19-2016, 07:43 AM
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New to REW

Hi everyone,


I have been pouring over this thread and also the Step by Step REW guide for about a week now. I am getting ready to jump into this with my system (waiting on my mic to arrive). I think I have a good starting point thanks to a lot of input from others on the forum and the manual, but I was wondering if the experienced users on here could give me a little advice. My setup:


Deftech BP9060 towers, 8060 center and surrounds, and dual SVS PC-2000 subs with a Denon X4200W AVR


Basement area is irregular and approx. 4000 cubic feet.

What I am wondering is if anyone else on here has dealt with the powered Deftch towers and REW. I am assuming there will most likely be a bit of a different approach (maybe?) to analyzing these based on the effect that the powered woofers may or may not have on the bass response of the 2 subs... Maybe I am wrong, but if anyone has any tip or tricks on dealing with powered Deftech towers that may not be obvious to an REW newbie, it would be appreciated.


Thanks in advance!


--Joe--
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post #20450 of 23032 Old 09-19-2016, 08:15 AM
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^^^ Joe, my advice is just start measuring. Once you get the hang if it measure everything.

The DefTechs might have built in subs but the best placement for stereo imaging is usually not the best for the subs. You won't know until you measure.

I recently added a 3rd sub (5th if you include two MBMs) and I've been moving them around and re-measuring as if I am starting from scratch.

Learning and knowing REW just takes repetition. You don't need you mic to play with the Room Simulator. Also, ASIO4ALL isn't always just plug and play. Work on getting that working with your HDMI out otherwise you won't be ready when the mic arrives.
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post #20451 of 23032 Old 09-19-2016, 10:28 AM
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Gents,

I've finally found an irresistable reason to bust out my REW gear. In another sub-forum, the following graph has been posted:



Of course, I gave away my preamp-based gear for REW and purchased the UMIK-1 USB. In my case, I want to time-align drivers using their individual step responses, as in this, non-REW graph, showing time alignment of 3 drivers in a multiway:



Can this be done with the USB setup, or is it back to a preamp setup? Also, where's the best REW software version for download? IIRC, there are often beta version floating about...

TIA

Ken
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post #20452 of 23032 Old 09-19-2016, 10:49 AM
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Gents,

I've finally found an irresistable reason to bust out my REW gear. In another sub-forum, the following graph has been posted:

Of course, I gave away my preamp-based gear for REW and purchased the UMIK-1 USB. In my case, I want to time-align drivers using their individual step responses, as in this, non-REW graph, showing time alignment of 3 drivers in a multiway:

Can this be done with the USB setup, or is it back to a preamp setup? Also, where's the best REW software version for download? IIRC, there are often beta version floating about...

TIA

Ken
with a USB setup then you would use the acoustic timing reference which does a similar thing to acourate (in that the pulses are aligned to a HF impulse). In REW's case, you pick acoustic timing and play that signal to a tweeter, you then repeat for each driver you're measuring while using the same reference signal.

Beta's are in http://www.roomeqwizard.com/beta.html tbh I always use the beta rather than the "final" version but the final one does have the acoustic timing too.

I don't really see the point of comparing SRs at different listening positions though, what's the point of that? also the graph from acourate shown seems to be 2 full range speakers from individual step responses (compared to a theoretical band pass filter by the looks of it).
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post #20453 of 23032 Old 09-19-2016, 11:12 AM
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with a USB setup then you would use the acoustic timing reference which does a similar thing to acourate (in that the pulses are aligned to a HF impulse). In REW's case, you pick acoustic timing and play that signal to a tweeter, you then repeat for each driver you're measuring while using the same reference signal.

Beta's are in http://www.roomeqwizard.com/beta.html tbh I always use the beta rather than the "final" version but the final one does have the acoustic timing too.
Many thanks! Give me a few days to get up and running as I'm sure I'll have questions.

Quote:
I don't really see the point of comparing SRs at different listening positions though, what's the point of that? also the graph from acourate shown seems to be 2 full range speakers from individual step responses (compared to a theoretical band pass filter by the looks of it).
Both graphs are from Mitchco over in this thread: The Process of (Professional) Testing and Reviewing Speakers posts 237 and 272. Dunno about the former, but the latter is a single three way, per Mitch.
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post #20454 of 23032 Old 09-19-2016, 11:14 AM
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Both graphs are from Mitchco over in this thread: The Process of (Professional) Testing and Reviewing Speakers posts 237 and 272. Dunno about the former, but the latter is a single three way, per Mitch.
I thought it looked familiar, thanks for the link.
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post #20455 of 23032 Old 09-19-2016, 01:12 PM
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I'm back with some measurements. Though I still can't get anything to come out of HDMI4 for just the subs. First pass trying to smooth the response out a bit with the front 3. A little disappointed with the flexibility of MCACC Pro's graphic EQ, if it was parametric I could definitely get this a lot smoother. I can't tell if this is an ok result or terrible. Would appreciate some words of wisdom from you guys:

Gear is Pioneer SC-95, Sonus Faber Venere 2.5's and center, dual Rythmik L12's placed nearfield with a minidsp 2x4 to eq. 80hz crossover.

Dark Blue is left, Purple is Right, light blue is center. Sweep from 15hz-20khz. I didn't do it at 90db because my wife was home and didn't want her to kill me so I did 75 which is pretty much my normal listening volume. Noise floor around 48db if I remember correctly. (1/6 smoothing)

speaker measurements


Room has no treatments, hardwood, no rugs, bare walls, flat 10ft ceilings, leather furniture, glass coffee table (with a very thick bath mat thrown over it for listening) all open to the rest of the house. My wife is only open to room treatments I can put up when I want to listen critically then take down and put away (currently only have the bathmat lol). Just bought some really heavy curtains that that will be 3 layers thick including a blackout at 108"x100" (not installed for these graphs that I'm hoping will make a difference). We've discussed a rug, but it'd have to be on the smaller side at 5'x7'. Couch (MLP) is pulled about 2 ft from back wall)

Stereo setup

My setup: Sonus Faber Venere 2.5 and center, Ascend HTM200SE surround, NHT atmos minis, dual Rythmik L12's, Pioneer SC-95, Outlaw M200, Samsung PN60F8500

Last edited by brianmlamb; 09-19-2016 at 01:28 PM.
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post #20456 of 23032 Old 09-19-2016, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by brianmlamb View Post
Room has no treatments, hardwood, no rugs, bare walls, flat 10ft ceilings, leather furniture, glass coffee table (with a very thick bath mat thrown over it for listening) all open to the rest of the house. My wife is only open to room treatments I can put up when I want to listen critically then take down and put away (currently only have the bathmat lol).
Well...sounds like a very difficult situation for an audio enthusiast; a very, very reflective room and no chance of treating it.

Were these measurements taken with the MiniDSP and MCACC's auto-eq filters turned on? If so....I'm sorry to say that you've got a lot more work to do if your goal is a flat response.
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post #20457 of 23032 Old 09-19-2016, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Well...sounds like a very difficult situation for an audio enthusiast; a very, very reflective room and no chance of treating it.

Were these measurements taken with the MiniDSP and MCACC's auto-eq filters turned on? If so....I'm sorry to say that you've got a lot more work to do if your goal is a flat response.
Unfortunately yes that is with all correction filters in place. Any advice on where to start? My biggest issue area seems to be from 80hz-500hz. MCACC only has graphic EQ sliders available at 125hz, 250hz, and 500hz in that range. There's also 3 parametric EQ cut filters that can be placed between 63hz and 250hz, trouble is the mains are coupled together on the same EQ, center is separate.

Is the response above 500hz ok? I tried pretty hard to get that in the 5db variation window.

I've been going through options of adding more eq filters like a mini dsp nano avr or possibly even going with the nano avr Dirac version with a regular nano avr to handle the bass management. I've also debated getting an amp for the sole purpose of adding the ddrc-88a dirac system. But those are both a considerable investment, and I'm really not sure if either of them would actually make an audible difference or if the limitations of my room won't be able to be overcome by EQ.

I feel like it still sounds pretty good, but I know it could be a lot better.

My setup: Sonus Faber Venere 2.5 and center, Ascend HTM200SE surround, NHT atmos minis, dual Rythmik L12's, Pioneer SC-95, Outlaw M200, Samsung PN60F8500

Last edited by brianmlamb; 09-19-2016 at 02:48 PM.
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post #20458 of 23032 Old 09-19-2016, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by brianmlamb View Post
It feel like it still sounds pretty good, but I know it could be a lot better.
Sure, we could all have a sound-insulated home theater isolated from the rest of the house with an IMAX screen and ATMOS sound and free beer.
In the meantime, you have a very nice setup and a lovely house. Please enjoy it.
A nice, thick rug (even the WAF 5 x 7) will help. Something on the wall behind the speakers will probably help with reflections (ever wonder why architects design plant shelves that high up on the wall? They must all be 8 feet tall.).
You can hide acoustic panels behind nice artwork if you want to bother with that.
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post #20459 of 23032 Old 09-19-2016, 02:40 PM
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Sure, we could all have a sound-insulated home theater isolated from the rest of the house with an IMAX screen and ATMOS sound and free beer.
In the meantime, you have a very nice setup and a lovely house. Please enjoy it.
A nice, thick rug (even the WAF 5 x 7) will help. Something on the wall behind the speakers will probably help with reflections (ever wonder why architects design plant shelves that high up on the wall? They must all be 8 feet tall.).
You can hide acoustic panels behind nice artwork if you want to bother with that.
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Thanks, I know you're definitely right. I also use my system every day to listen to music while I'm cooking or having dinner in the adjacent open areas. I know I couldn't do that with a nice sealed room with perfect bass response. Those high plant shelves have always confused me as well haha.

Thanks for the advice on the room treatments, I could definitely stick some panels behind the speakers while listening and then hide them away in the closet pretty easily. I do plan on getting a rug, it may be a cowhide though with a thicker rug pad, not sure how much help it'd be though, I know a shag style is best. Question on hiding panels behind artwork, I'm assuming that the canvas has to be acoustically transparent for it to work right? Ex. a picture with thick oil based paint isn't going to work?

My setup: Sonus Faber Venere 2.5 and center, Ascend HTM200SE surround, NHT atmos minis, dual Rythmik L12's, Pioneer SC-95, Outlaw M200, Samsung PN60F8500
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post #20460 of 23032 Old 09-19-2016, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by brianmlamb View Post
Thanks, I know you're definitely right. I also use my system every day to listen to music while I'm cooking or having dinner in the adjacent open areas. I know I couldn't do that with a nice sealed room with perfect bass response. Those high plant shelves have always confused me as well haha.

Thanks for the advice on the room treatments, I could definitely stick some panels behind the speakers while listening and then hide them away in the closet pretty easily. I do plan on getting a rug, it may be a cowhide though with a thicker rug pad, not sure how much help it'd be though, I know a shag style is best. Question on hiding panels behind artwork, I'm assuming that the canvas has to be acoustically transparent for it to work right? Ex. a picture with thick oil based paint isn't going to work?
I think he was referring to special acoustic panels that have a decorative artwork face, rather than blank fabric. I don't recommend placing the Mona Lisa on top of a treatment and expecting it to work.

I think your biggest problem is at 90Hz, although the peak is in the right channel, you may not hear it. Otherwise, I don't see anything that wrong, especially above 400Hz. I would approach any treatments with caution. Try something, run an REW measurement, and assess whether there has been an improvement. I suspect that the subs are placed where you wife thinks they look good--moving them around might flatten the bass response.

Two other areas you need to assess are bass resonance and specular reflections. The former is measured by the waterfall, and the latter with the ETC. Look in the guide for direction. These two graphs will be very revealing WRT the overall audio quality in your listening room. Very nice room, BTW, and fine speakers all around! I have a non-dedicated room as well, but no wife to corral my treatments frenzy.

GIK Acoustics "Art Panels": http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/...oustic-panels/
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