Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 685 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #20521 of 21562 Old 09-26-2016, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
I think some people call it mid bass modules. Rythmik even sells a special version of the F8 called the FM8 to be used in this fashion.

In my case, I mean I plan to use my TBIs subs to support my mains crossed over at as close to 200Hz (or higher) as they can handle. As you know, a crossover that high is localizable so I need a TBI paired with each main speaker for it to be seamless.

Not necessarily something I would recommend but I've been wanting to try it for a while. But things keep preventing me from doing it.
Why are your mains crossed over so high? Are they extraordinarily small? So how will the TBI's be wired up? Do they need to be co-located with the mains, or can they be placed anywhere.

I have never heard of this approach before. What problem are you trying to solve?
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post #20522 of 21562 Old 09-26-2016, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
I would try a higher crossover (at least 50, probably 80Hz). Don't feel badly that your fronts aren't being "used;" they'll probably be able to perform much better and with more headroom without trying to do the job of the subwoofer.
Then you can add more subs.

Michael
You mean you think I'll have more problems having the Klipsch at 30hz & the SVS at 50hz (fwiw - I'm using the the sharp 24db slope setting on both), and would be better off keeping them both at the same X-over point (HP & LP points)?

Thx for the feedback.

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post #20523 of 21562 Old 09-26-2016, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Why are your mains crossed over so high? Are they extraordinarily small? So how will the TBI's be wired up? Do they need to be co-located with the mains, or can they be placed anywhere.

I have never heard of this approach before. What problem are you trying to solve?
I'm surprised you hadn't heard of this technique. There's a bunch of stuff on the Internet (pros and cons. I just want to try it). But I think this article will answer a lot of questions.

My speakers are smallish but I find the higher I cross them the clearer everything sounds. I currently cross them at 100Hz so I want to try higher but then I have the localization problem.

My preamp has a digital in and has 4 outputs L/R and configurable L/R. The configurable L/R can be full signal or a low-passed signal in either mono or stereo. The latter would be low-passed L and low-passed R (actually, more configurable than that but for this purpose that's what matters). So I would do that and feed each signal into its own TBI. As an aside, the crossover in the preamp can go extraordinarily high (like 9999Hz) and supports a variety of types BW,LR, and orders (1st,2nd,4th,8th).

The preamp can do delay as well so the subs can either be co-located or placed anywhere, I think. I'd have them co-lo to make my life simpler and that's all my room supports anyway.

I am not sure that there's an actual problem I'm trying to solve. I've just heard that "stereo bass" can really open up 2ch soundstage and detail.

My preamp is a Lyngdorf and I'm inspired by the Lyngdorf speaker system (review).

Again, please don't judge. It's just a configuration I want to try out. I've read about how so-called stereo bass makes no sense but I'm having a mad scientist moment with this, if I ever to try it.
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post #20524 of 21562 Old 09-26-2016, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
You mean you think I'll have more problems having the Klipsch at 30hz & the SVS at 50hz (fwiw - I'm using the the sharp 24db slope setting on both), and would be better off keeping them both at the same X-over point (HP & LP points)?

Thx for the feedback.
I read somewhere, and I think Markus advocates, keeping your chosen crossover the same for all speakers. It simplifies a bunch of stuff.
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post #20525 of 21562 Old 09-26-2016, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
I'm surprised you hadn't heard of this technique. There's a bunch of stuff on the Internet (pros and cons. I just want to try it). But I think this article will answer a lot of questions.

My speakers are smallish but I find the higher I cross them the clearer everything sounds. I currently cross them at 100Hz so I want to try higher but then I have the localization problem.

My preamp has a digital in and has 4 outputs L/R and configurable L/R. The configurable L/R can be full signal or a low-passed signal in either mono or stereo. The latter would be low-passed L and low-passed R (actually, more configurable than that but for this purpose that's what matters). So I would do that and feed each signal into its own TBI. As an aside, the crossover in the preamp can go extraordinarily high (like 9999Hz) and supports a variety of types BW,LR, and orders (1st,2nd,4th,8th).

The preamp can do delay as well so the subs can either be co-located or placed anywhere, I think. I'd have them co-lo to make my life simpler and that's all my room supports anyway.

I am not sure that there's an actual problem I'm trying to solve. I've just heard that "stereo bass" can really open up 2ch soundstage and detail.

My preamp is a Lyngdorf and I'm inspired by the Lyngdorf speaker system (review).

Again, please don't judge. It's just a configuration I want to try out. I've read about how so-called stereo bass makes no sense but I'm having a mad scientist moment with this, if I ever to try it.
Very interesting. I look forward to reading the info in the link you provided, after this evening's debate. I would never judge, especially when someone is trying something different and interesting. good luck!
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post #20526 of 21562 Old 09-26-2016, 07:02 PM
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Very interesting. I look forward to reading the info in the link you provided, after this evening's debate. I would never judge, especially when someone is trying something different and interesting. good luck!
You're talking about artur's speakers, not the debate's speakers, right?

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post #20527 of 21562 Old 09-26-2016, 07:03 PM
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better off keeping them both at the same X-over point (HP & LP points)?
Yes, better off the same and perhaps better off at 80 than at 50. Easy enough to try.
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post #20528 of 21562 Old 09-26-2016, 08:02 PM
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Yes, better off the same and perhaps better off at 80 than at 50. Easy enough to try.
Michael

Yeah, I hear ya and all things being equal I could prob do it that way but just trying to keep my Pro Audyssey calibration in-tact and take the low-end burden off my existing subs (which ChadB did and sounds excellent and I'd hate to start over or waste the $450 already paid if I don't have to). I figured I could simply use the miniDSP to cut off the lower end which the Klipsch's now struggle with (Atmos & DTS:X), and blend in the SVS 2000 cylinder to handle the rest down to 16-18hz. I have them both time aligned and I'm close but it's been a bit more challenging than I I thought (and interestingly I don't really see a huge bubble between 30-50hz which the two subs share even when using the sharp slopes).

Thx

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post #20529 of 21562 Old 09-26-2016, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
Yeah, I hear ya and all things being equal I could prob do it that way but just trying to keep my Pro Audyssey calibration in-tact and take the low-end burden off my existing subs (which ChadB did and sounds excellent and I'd hate to start over or waste the $450 already paid if I don't have to). I figured I could simply use the miniDSP to cut off the lower end which the Klipsch's now struggle with (Atmos & DTS:X), and blend in the SVS 2000 cylinder to handle the rest down to 16-18hz. I have them both time aligned and I'm close but it's been a bit more challenging than I I thought (and interestingly I don't really see a huge bubble between 30-50hz which the two subs share even when using the sharp slopes).

Thx
You should be able to raise crossover points without changing the Audyssey calibration.
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post #20530 of 21562 Old 09-27-2016, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
I'm surprised you hadn't heard of this technique. There's a bunch of stuff on the Internet (pros and cons. I just want to try it). But I think this article will answer a lot of questions.
Stereo bass in acoustically small rooms is nonsense. The room completely scrambles any directional information below 100Hz. You end up with directional effects that are NOT in the recording and unpredictable bass performance as the two stereo subs will interact in different ways depending on the directional information in the recording. Better create a monophonic bass channel and use it with multiple subs.

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post #20531 of 21562 Old 09-27-2016, 06:17 PM
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Stereo bass in acoustically small rooms is nonsense. The room completely scrambles any directional information below 100Hz.
Right but what about mid bass modules that extend up to 300Hz like the Lyngdorf BW-1?
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post #20532 of 21562 Old 09-28-2016, 12:13 AM
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Right but what about mid bass modules that extend up to 300Hz like the Lyngdorf BW-1?
That's a bad idea because you limit the locations where subs can be placed. With a sub playing that high it has to be placed near the satellites because of localization issues.
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post #20533 of 21562 Old 10-03-2016, 09:32 PM
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Sort of following Markus's advice, I decided to lower the crossover so that the mains have the opportunity to enhance the soundstage. It was too much work to rearrange everything to do the flanking sub thing.

I took the opportunity to phase match etc. Still have room EQ left to do but I hardly need it given the graphs I have. I use Krell ARES for movies and Lyngdorf RoomPerfect for music. RoomPerfect has the funny feature of telling you how much correction it does and I have not had it do more than 4-6% ever.

In any case, I really like how this came out for my 2channel setup. I am only using 3 bands of PEQ with a crossover set at 70Hz. For final approval of changes, I use a version of Ottmar Liebert's FireOpal that has a lot of reverberant bass in it. Sounds terrible if bass isn't flat and modally controlled.

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post #20534 of 21562 Old 10-05-2016, 05:50 AM
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Right but what about mid bass modules that extend up to 300Hz like the Lyngdorf BW-1?
I thought the lyngdorf approach (using mid bass modules and a high crossover) was an allison effect play?
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post #20535 of 21562 Old 10-05-2016, 06:46 AM
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I thought the lyngdorf approach (using mid bass modules and a high crossover) was an allison effect play?
Darn, Matt, you made me Google!
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post #20536 of 21562 Old 10-06-2016, 06:13 AM
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I'm utterly ignorant on equalization hardware, software, techniques...

I've got a new home theater. For budget reasons, I used a Marantz 7702mkII and Marantz 5 and 7 channel amps, rather than going with a DSP-based amplifier system.

Now that it's finished, I've learned that it could use equalization beyond the simple speaker gain and bass cutoff controls the Marantz offers. I can't afford to upgrade to DSP amps or a suite of hardware graphic equalizers right now.

I have an HTPC.

Could I use the REW software as an intermediate processor, between Marantz 7703 line-out and Amps, to tune for speaker response?

I've skimmed the REW site and the first page of this thread. I see how REW measures the room. But I don't see how ihow or if it can act as an equalizer in the audio chain, especially for a 7.3.4 system.

Thanks
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post #20537 of 21562 Old 10-06-2016, 07:00 AM
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I'm utterly ignorant on equalization hardware, software, techniques...

I've got a new home theater. For budget reasons, I used a Marantz 7702mkII and Marantz 5 and 7 channel amps, rather than going with a DSP-based amplifier system.

Now that it's finished, I've learned that it could use equalization beyond the simple speaker gain and bass cutoff controls the Marantz offers. I can't afford to upgrade to DSP amps or a suite of hardware graphic equalizers right now.

I have an HTPC.

Could I use the REW software as an intermediate processor, between Marantz 7703 line-out and Amps, to tune for speaker response?

I've skimmed the REW site and the first page of this thread. I see how REW measures the room. But I don't see how ihow or if it can act as an equalizer in the audio chain, especially for a 7.3.4 system.

Thanks
No need to shout, man.

REW is not an equalizer. The only thing REW can do along those lines is measure your room response and, using its EQ tool, allow you to create filters that can be loaded into an outboard piece of hardware such as a MiniDSP.

You don't mention it, but are you using the Marantz' Audyssey room correction capabilities? Audyssey is far more sophisticated than a simple equalizer and is capable of significantly improving your audio. Or are you using Audyssey already and want something more?
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post #20538 of 21562 Old 10-06-2016, 07:07 AM
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I have an HTPC.
Use this:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/equalizerapo/
Michael
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post #20539 of 21562 Old 10-06-2016, 07:10 AM
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No need to shout, man.

REW is not an equalizer. The only thing REW can do along those lines is measure your room response and, using its EQ tool, allow you to create filters that can be loaded into an outboard piece of hardware such as a MiniDSP.

You don't mention it, but are you using the Marantz' Audyssey room correction capabilities? Audyssey is far more sophisticated than a simple equalizer and is capable of significantly improving your audio. Or are you using Audyssey already and want something more?
Ha ha

Thanks for simple explanation.

I'm working with custom installer who typically sells, installs, and calibrates with DSP amps like Pro Audio Technology and a PC-driven measurement and calibration tool (like REW, I suppose). They don't usually run Audyssey and call it done.

So, my Marantz has Audyssey. They've run it, done some further adjustments and are going from there based on their professional tools and experience installing home theaters.

What I haven't done is run Audyssey listen to what it can accomplish per se. So I will consider recording all the settings my installer makes, then run Audyssey and compare its results, and decide which to keep. That will be a great weekend activity later this Winter!

Thanks again
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post #20540 of 21562 Old 10-06-2016, 07:28 AM
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Ha ha

Thanks for simple explanation.

I'm working with custom installer who typically sells, installs, and calibrates with DSP amps like Pro Audio Technology and a PC-driven measurement and calibration tool (like REW, I suppose). They don't usually run Audyssey and call it done.

So, my Marantz has Audyssey. They've run it, done some further adjustments and are going from there based on their professional tools and experience installing home theaters.

What I haven't done is run Audyssey listen to what it can accomplish per se. So I will consider recording all the settings my installer makes, then run Audyssey and compare its results, and decide which to keep. That will be a great weekend activity later this Winter!

Thanks again
Sounds like a good plan. While I am sure your professional installers have done a fine job, I can't tell from your response whether the installers have run and are using Audyssey, but IMO Audyssey will do a far better job than simply tweaking manual settings. Please report back with your impressions.

And before you do anything, consider running a network save to preserve the settings made by the installers. By doing this, you can easily restore the exact previous state in case you want to go back. The procedure is simple and quick, and having a stored configuration for your system is very important. The instructions are here: The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread
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post #20541 of 21562 Old 10-06-2016, 07:51 AM
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Sounds like a good plan. While I am sure your professional installers have done a fine job, I can't tell from your response whether the installers have run and are using Audyssey, but IMO Audyssey will do a far better job than simply tweaking manual settings. Please report back with your impressions.

And before you do anything, consider running a network save to preserve the settings made by the installers. By doing this, you can easily restore the exact previous state in case you want to go back. The procedure is simple and quick, and having a stored configuration for your system is very important. The instructions are here: The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread
They've run Audyssey. Then further manually adjusted the Marantz 7702 settings.

Thanks for the network save tip. I haven't read my manual yet. I'll get back to the Marantz thread to learn more. (Since this is a paid installation, and it's not yet completely finished, I haven't gone past "Push Power and Hit Play" yet.)
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post #20542 of 21562 Old 10-06-2016, 07:53 AM
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How do you insert a PC-based EQ in between the Processor and Amps? For a 7.x.4 Atmos system? I know nothing here; I need the "PC EQ for Dummies" summary
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post #20543 of 21562 Old 10-06-2016, 08:15 AM
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Just follow the tutorial in the wiki.
The program is capable of eq of individual channels (up to 7.1), but I suggest you start with just overall eq to get a feel for that program and REW.
Or, you may find after running REW, that you don't need any additional eq/treatment, which would be very nice, indeed.
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post #20544 of 21562 Old 10-06-2016, 08:46 AM
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How do you insert a PC-based EQ in between the Processor and Amps? For a 7.x.4 Atmos system? I know nothing here; I need the "PC EQ for Dummies" summary
you'd have to route the analogue output into a PC, perform processing and then route the output into the amps. This is a non trivial task to setup.
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post #20545 of 21562 Old 10-06-2016, 10:57 AM
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He has an HTPC. The output is FROM the PC, unless I'm misunderstanding.
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post #20546 of 21562 Old 10-06-2016, 11:26 AM
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He has an HTPC. The output is FROM the PC, unless I'm misunderstanding.
Michael
There is no atmos decoder on the PC so the output must be bitstream
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post #20547 of 21562 Old 10-06-2016, 12:25 PM
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How do you insert a PC-based EQ in between the Processor and Amps? For a 7.x.4 Atmos system? I know nothing here; I need the "PC EQ for Dummies" summary
Given Matt's comments that setting this up is not trivial, I still think you need to assess whether you need additional EQ or not. REW measurements will show your current state. If things are "good enough" you may want to sit back and relax. Implementing additional EQ without assessing current state would be flying blind.

And BTW, I don't understand how the installers are tweaking the settings after Audyssey has been run. Enabling the Marantz manual EQ will disable Audyssey, and that would be a step in the wrong direction.
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post #20548 of 21562 Old 10-07-2016, 07:27 AM
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Got it, thanks. Using HTPC as Digital EQ is not easy.
(My HTPC plays blu-rays, bit streaming A/V over HDMI to Processor to decode Dolby Atmos. Processor is connected with line-out to amps powering the speakers.)

With tip on Marantz, I'll be able to backup settings and review standard Audyssey cal vs manual adjustments.
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post #20549 of 21562 Old 10-07-2016, 11:40 AM
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Equalizer-APO should work fine for you, then.
But, again, use REW first to see if you need to "improve" anything.
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post #20550 of 21562 Old 10-07-2016, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Equalizer-APO should work fine for you, then.
he's bitstreaming, EQ is applied to PCM i.e. decoded streams.
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