Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 688 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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Old 11-03-2016, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Stephan Mire View Post
I'm from South Africa, so the price difference in my currency ends up being around R1880 vs R2550. The difference in price I could buy 3 new Blu-ray movies.

I also see there is a Pmik-1 as well for android/iPhone. Looks quite cool, but I have no idea if it would be as accurate as the UMIK-1. Definitely nicer as it's far more portable.
I have a small mic for use with iOS devices. Totally unusable in REW and only marginally accurate. Save your money.
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Old 11-03-2016, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Isn't the CSL UMIK calibrated lower than the MiniDSP UMIK? 10hz vs. 5hz I think...??

FWIW, I bought my mic from CSL just for the peace of mind...what's $25 considering the total cost of our systems?
Maybe, but I don't live down in the sub-10Hz world like you bassheads, Alan.
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Old 11-03-2016, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The Cross-Spectrum mics are individually calibrated, while the mics from MiniDSP have a single calibration file for a whole batch of mics.
The mics from miniDSP are also individually calibrated.
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Old 11-03-2016, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
@Avsion, ,

The measurements don't look too bad. What would be interesting to see now is left+subs, right+subs, and center+subs (all subs combined). It is important to observe how the mains plus subs combine to provide the bass response, and how well the mains and subs integrate at the crossover.

And if you could upload the REW MDAT file to Dropbox as well, we can look at it ourselves, rather than bug you for more graphs.
Hi Jerry,

Sorry for the late reply, we had last night the Denon, Marantz & HEOS New Product Presentations for the Sydney CI,
D & M has integrated a HEOS module into the higher end AVR"S and AVP"

About the measurement i just realised that the measurements uploaded were taken with Dolby Surround mode instead of MLT CH IN and the PEQ on the two subs was enabled
I will retake new measurements today including LARGE, SMALL + SUBS with both audyssey on and off so we will have all the data available. i will upload all in one MDAT file and post the a dropbox link here.

Regarding Learning REW for HT Calibration, i feel now confident taking measurements, understanding what the FR graph mean, using SPL and using EQ filters (not 100% there yet with the settings).
what other subjects do you recommend i should learn about to get to a good level for complete home theatre audio calibration? such as phase and delay measurements, subwoofer matching and integration..etc and do you have a good guide i can use? i will also need to know how to use miniDSP to enter all the parameters from REW.

Lastly i'm planing to buy miniDSP DDRC-88A, i saw that they have only one subwoofer output, as i have 5.2 system and the Marantz AV7702 MKII has 2 Balanced SUB outputs,
can i used the spare 2 SRB miniDSP unused I\O for subwoofers or it's better to buy both DDRC-88A for the speakers and 2x4 advanced for the SUBs?

Apologies me asking too many question just have to much to catch up with

Thank you

Yariv

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Old 11-03-2016, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by avsion View Post
Hi Jerry,

Sorry for the late reply, we had last night the Denon, Marantz & HEOS New Product Presentations for the Sydney CI,
D & M has integrated a HEOS module into the higher end AVR"S and AVP"

About the measurement i just realised that the measurements uploaded were taken with Dolby Surround mode instead of MLT CH IN and the PEQ on the two subs was enabled
I will retake new measurements today including LARGE, SMALL + SUBS with both audyssey on and off so we will have all the data available. i will upload all in one MDAT file and post the a dropbox link here.

Regarding Learning REW for HT Calibration, i feel now confident taking measurements, understanding what the FR graph mean, using SPL and using EQ filters (not 100% there yet with the settings).
what other subjects do you recommend i should learn about to get to a good level for complete home theatre audio calibration? such as phase and delay measurements, subwoofer matching and integration..etc and do you have a good guide i can use? i will also need to know how to use miniDSP to enter all the parameters from REW.

Lastly i'm planing to buy miniDSP DDRC-88A, i saw that they have only one subwoofer output, as i have 5.2 system and the Marantz AV7702 MKII has 2 Balanced SUB outputs,
can i used the spare 2 SRB miniDSP unused I\O for subwoofers or it's better to buy both DDRC-88A for the speakers and 2x4 advanced for the SUBs?

Apologies me asking too many question just have to much to catch up with

Thank you

Yariv
Yes, when you take measurements, all correction and PEQ should be turned off. Make sure you label the measurements so we know which one is which.

After seeing your new REW MDAT, I am sure there will be suggestions forthcoming WRT other areas that you need to focus on.

And as far as handling the two subs with the 88A, there are several approaches. If the subs are equidistant from the MLP, then simply combine both subs onto one output. Otherwise, you could use an external 2x4 (see the doc linked in my sig). Or, you could purchase the bass management plug-in with the 88A (making it an 88BM), and use one of the two unused outputs on the 88BM to consolidate the subs.

When you get the 88A, we can discuss further.
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Old 11-03-2016, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Yes, when you take measurements, all correction and PEQ should be turned off. Make sure you label the measurements so we know which one is which.

After seeing your new REW MDAT, I am sure there will be suggestions forthcoming WRT other areas that you need to focus on.

And as far as handling the two subs with the 88A, there are several approaches. If the subs are equidistant from the MLP, then simply combine both subs onto one output. Otherwise, you could use an external 2x4 (see the doc linked in my sig). Or, you could purchase the bass management plug-in with the 88A (making it an 88BM), and use one of the two unused outputs on the 88BM to consolidate the subs.

When you get the 88A, we can discuss further.
Hi Jerry,

Please find link for the new measurements including all the options and labeled, also attached an image of my setup.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ifndoxji91...0OFF.mdat?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k8zbld604z...20ON.mdat?dl=0

Regarding the miniDSP i ordered both 88A without the BM plugin and external 2x4 balanced and one more UMIK 1, will let you know once its been delivered.

Thank you for your help

Yariv

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Old 11-03-2016, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by avsion View Post
Hi Jerry,

Please find link for the new measurements including all the options and labeled, also attached an image of my setup.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ifndoxji91...0OFF.mdat?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k8zbld604z...20ON.mdat?dl=0

Regarding the miniDSP i ordered both 88A without the BM plugin and external 2x4 balanced and one more UMIK 1, will let you know once its been delivered.

Thank you for your help

Yariv

Very nice setup, although that wall is screaming out for a larger screen.

Too late to do anything this evening--I will provide feedback tomorrow.
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Old 11-03-2016, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by avsion View Post
Hi Jerry,

Please find link for the new measurements including all the options and labeled, also attached an image of my setup.

Regarding the miniDSP i ordered both 88A without the BM plugin and external 2x4 balanced and one more UMIK 1, will let you know once its been delivered.

Thank you for your help

Yariv
Yariv, I successfully downloaded your measurement file and took a quick look. The first thing I notice is a very significant 16dB dip from 40Hz to 70Hz in the front channel. I suspect the cause of the dip is how you have the center speaker mounted. Before doing much else, we need to understand the cause of this dip, and then fix it. This is priority no 1.

What flexibility do you have with respect to equipment placement? And can you put treatments on the walls? Is that a dedicated listening room, or your living room? Do you have an open-minded wife, or will there be severe limitations to what you can do?

Here is a frame-breaking idea for you to consider:

- Move the equipment rack off to one side of the room out from under the TV (equipment racks in the center are a bad idea from an audio perspective)
- Remove the center speaker from its wall mount and place it on a dedicated center speaker stand away from the front wall (see the "My Setup" link in my sig for an example).
- Arrange the Left, right and center speakers so that each is exactly the same distance from the MLP
- Make sure the left, right and MLP form a triangle (ideally equilateral)

At the very least, we need to conduct some temporary, alternate locations for the center channel to see if we can eliminate the dip.

- Remove it from the wall mount and place it on top of the cabinet in between the Marantz and the Emotiva, with the front of the speaker all the way to the front edge of the cabinet.
- Place the center speaker on a box in front of the cabinet (temporarily)
- Measure each of these locations to see if the dip is improved/gone.

Later we can discuss bass resonance and room reflections, but we need to fix the center channel first. We can talk more tomorrow.
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Old 11-03-2016, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Yariv, I successfully downloaded your measurement file and took a quick look. The first thing I notice is a very significant 16dB dip from 40Hz to 70Hz in the front channel. I suspect the cause of the dip is how you have the center speaker mounted. Before doing much else, we need to understand the cause of this dip, and then fix it. This is priority no 1.

What flexibility do you have with respect to equipment placement? And can you put treatments on the walls? Is that a dedicated listening room, or your living room? Do you have an open-minded wife, or will there be severe limitations to what you can do?

Here is a frame-breaking idea for you to consider:

- Move the equipment rack off to one side of the room out from under the TV (equipment racks in the center are a bad idea from an audio perspective)
- Remove the center speaker from its wall mount and place it on a dedicated center speaker stand away from the front wall (see the "My Setup" link in my sig for an example).
- Arrange the Left, right and center speakers so that each is exactly the same distance from the MLP
- Make sure the left, right and MLP form a triangle (ideally equilateral)

At the very least, we need to conduct some temporary, alternate locations for the center channel to see if we can eliminate the dip.

- Remove it from the wall mount and place it on top of the cabinet in between the Marantz and the Emotiva, with the front of the speaker all the way to the front edge of the cabinet.
- Place the center speaker on a box in front of the cabinet (temporarily)
- Measure each of these locations to see if the dip is improved/gone.

Later we can discuss bass resonance and room reflections, but we need to fix the center channel first. We can talk more tomorrow.
Thanks Jerry,

One thing to confirm before i follow your suggestions, i can see from the measurements 40-70HZ dip shows on the following channels: Centre, SR L and SR R (SMALL option).
i remember during the Audyssey Calibration process, the Audyssey warn me that the Centre, SR L and SR R channels are not in phase and suggested to check the wiring,I
as the wiring was correct i ignored it, is that can be a possibility and cause this 40-70HZ 16db dip? i read somewhere a while a go that some time the way the crossover wiring are connected
inside the speakers can enable this warning during the audyssey process and should be ignored if correctly connected . one more thing to mention that i had the same warning on my previous Denon 4311 AVR but then the Audyssey pointed it was the FL and FR speakers(opposite to the Marantz AVP).

Thank you

speak tomorrow

Last edited by avsion; 11-04-2016 at 03:16 AM.
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Old 11-04-2016, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by avsion View Post
Thanks Jerry,

One thing to confirm before i follow your suggestions, i can see from the measurements 40-70HZ dip shows on the following channels: Centre, SR L and SR R (SMALL option).
i remember during the Audyssey Calibration process, the Audyssey warn me that the Centre, SR L and SR R channels are not in phase and suggested to check the wiring,I
as the wiring was correct i ignored it, is that can be a possibility and cause this 40-70HZ 16db dip? i read somewhere a while a go that some time the way the crossover wiring are connected
inside the speakers can enable this warning during the audyssey process and should be ignored if correctly connected . one more thing to mention that i had the same warning on my previous Denon 4311 AVR but then the Audyssey pointed it was the FL and FR speakers(opposite to the Marantz AVP).

Thank you

speak tomorrow
I don't see any evidence of a phase problem with the front three speakers:



However, the two subs seem to have a phase issue:






Phase relationships is not my area of expertise. Perhaps someone with more knowledge could comment on what looks like a sub phase issue.
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Old 11-04-2016, 02:45 PM
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What flexibility do you have with respect to equipment placement? And can you put treatments on the walls? Is that a dedicated listening room, or your living room? Do you have an open-minded wife, or will there be severe limitations to what you can do?
in reply to your questions
The listening area is a family living room, my wife is interior designer and open minded, as long she is happy with the look it should be fine, we spoke about moving the equipment
but on the right side very close to the FR there is a dining table and on the left side very close to the FL there is a toy cabinet that sit horizontally, if i turn the toy cabinet vertically, i might be able to
fit an equipment rack similar to yours. as for treatment on the walls lets wait first and leave it as a last option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Here is a frame-breaking idea for you to consider:

- Move the equipment rack off to one side of the room out from under the TV (equipment racks in the center are a bad idea from an audio perspective)
- Remove the center speaker from its wall mount and place it on a dedicated center speaker stand away from the front wall (see the "My Setup" link in my sig for an example).
- Arrange the Left, right and center speakers so that each is exactly the same distance from the MLP
- Make sure the left, right and MLP form a triangle (ideally equilateral)
the maximum distance available in my room between the FL and FR is 3.3m which works out 45 degrees from my MLP that is the minimum recommended.

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Old 11-04-2016, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I don't see any evidence of a phase problem with the front three speakers:



However, the two subs seem to have a phase issue:






Phase relationships is not my area of expertise. Perhaps someone with more knowledge could comment on what looks like a sub phase issue.
What about the SR + SL they in phase with the mains ?

Regarding the subwoofers I had to adjust 5db gain between the left and the right to match the level although they are in equally distance and on the same wall.
The levels are SUB L -23db and SUB R -18db
I'm pretty sure the settings is default on both.
Any thoughts?

Thanks Yariv
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Old 11-04-2016, 03:28 PM
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Those two sub graphs seem to have the same labels but look different, what is going on there? First one looks like a delay issue to me, ie subs not aligned.
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Old 11-04-2016, 04:02 PM
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Those two sub graphs seem to have the same labels but look different, what is going on there? First one looks like a delay issue to me, ie subs not aligned.
The first one is Audyssey off, the second one is Audyssey on. I would expect Audyssey to be time-aligning the two subs (XT32), no?
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Old 11-04-2016, 04:04 PM
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What about the SR + SL they in phase with the mains ?

Thanks Yariv
I saw no phase issue with the surrounds either.
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Old 11-04-2016, 04:06 PM
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The first one is Audyssey off, the second one is Audyssey on. I would expect Audyssey to be time-aligning the two subs (XT32), no?
Ah yes, I misread the graph. Audyssey appears to have naively aligned to the largest peak in the impulse if that graph is correct, ie not right.

edit: my eyes not working, as markus points out the graph is aligned to t=0 so no timing ref was used hence no conclusion can be drawn on timing.

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Old 11-04-2016, 04:54 PM
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I saw no phase issue with the surrounds either.
Great, so i can ignore the wiring warning i got during the Audyssey calibration process, correct?

and can i eliminate ,the 40-70HZ dip as shown below on the Center SR and SL, caused by the Audyssey warning during the calibration process?

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Old 11-04-2016, 05:34 PM
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Great, so i can ignore the wiring warning i got during the Audyssey calibration process, correct?

and can i eliminate ,the 40-70HZ dip as shown below on the Center SR and SL, caused by the Audyssey warning during the calibration process?
I think we can forget the phase warning for now. The focus needs to be on the sub time alignment, i.e. why it seems to be incorrect after the Audyssey calibration. The sub response measurement is not as flat as it could be. Have you experimented with moving the subs around a bit to see how placement affects the frequency response?
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Old 11-05-2016, 02:19 AM
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Originally Posted by avsion View Post
Great, so i can ignore the wiring warning i got during the Audyssey calibration process, correct?

and can i eliminate ,the 40-70HZ dip as shown below on the Center SR and SL, caused by the Audyssey warning during the calibration process?
Audyssey will reverse polarity internally if it finds a reversed IR peak.
You could try different crossover points for C and LS/RS. Changing sub delay will probably make L and R worse. But it's worth a try.

P.S. If you do measurements please don't forget to measure with a timing reference. Without it not much can be said about relative phase.

Markus

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Old 11-05-2016, 09:51 AM
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P.S. If you do measurements please don't forget to measure with a timing reference. Without it not much can be said about relative phase.
Just curious, Markus, when presented with a measurement, does REW give an indication as to whether a timing reference was used? If not, maybe this would be a good suggestion for JohnM.
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Old 11-05-2016, 10:06 AM
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Just curious, Markus, when presented with a measurement, does REW give an indication as to whether a timing reference was used?
Click the info button.

Markus

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Old 11-05-2016, 10:14 AM
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Click the info button.
Sorry, Markus, too easy. And it requires me to get up out of my easy chair. When you get older, you will understand what I mean.
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Old 11-05-2016, 02:23 PM
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Sorry, Markus, too easy. And it requires me to get up out of my easy chair. When you get older, you will understand what I mean.
I certainly do understand Jerry................
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Old 11-05-2016, 02:38 PM
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I think we can forget the phase warning for now. The focus needs to be on the sub time alignment, i.e. why it seems to be incorrect after the Audyssey calibration. The sub response measurement is not as flat as it could be. Have you experimented with moving the subs around a bit to see how placement affects the frequency response?
Hi Jerry,

I did more measurements yesterday and experiment moving both subwoofers as follows

The right subwoofer has two short dips 40-50HZ and 60-77HZ with half a meter space(between the AV Cabinet and the FR) available to experiment,
As the space is short i did took a measurement every 10cm getting closer to the FR, the results didn't show any changes in the dips.

The left subwoofer has one long dip 40-70HZ with 3 meter space(between the AV Cabinet and the left wall corner) to experiment,
moving it in that space closer to the left, taking measurements along the way and ending at the wall corner has made small change moving the
dip frequency up to 50-80HZ but with 3db flatter(down from 16db to 13db) which didn't make a significant improvement. i also experiment moving the subwoofer backward to the wall which had
more effect in short distance, 3db flatter in 10cm. i also experiment with moving some furniture around, removing the mirror on the wall next to the SR R but no changes in the frequency shown.

it's probably something to do with the room shape which the right wall open to a dining area and the ceiling has external timber horizontal columns every 1 meter.

The only thing i didn't try was moving the left subwoofer to the opposite side or on the left to the MLP, i have a feeling it will have better effect, i will test it and keep you updated.

Thanks again

Yariv

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Old 11-05-2016, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by avsion View Post
Hi Jerry,

I did more measurements yesterday and experiment moving both subwoofers as follows

The right subwoofer has two short dips 40-50HZ and 60-77HZ with half a meter space(between the AV Cabinet and the FR) available to experiment,
As the space is short i did took a measurement every 10cm getting closer to the FR, the results didn't show any changes in the dips.

The left subwoofer has one long dip 40-70HZ with 3 meter space(between the AV Cabinet and the left wall corner) to experiment,
moving it in that space closer to the left, taking measurements along the way and ending at the wall corner has made small change moving the
dip frequency up to 50-80HZ but with 3db flatter(down from 16db to 13db) which didn't make a significant improvement. i also experiment moving the subwoofer backward to the wall which had
more effect in short distance, 3db flatter in 10cm. i also experiment with moving some furniture around, removing the mirror on the wall next to the SR R but no changes in the frequency shown.

it's probably something to do with the room shape which the right wall open to a dining area and the ceiling has external timber horizontal columns every 1 meter.

The only thing i didn't try was moving the left subwoofer to the opposite side or on the left to the MLP, i have a feeling it will have better effect, i will test it and keep you updated.

Thanks again

Yariv
You are on the right track, but you may need to (temporarily) try some unconventional placements, like along the side wall or even in the rear of the room. Remember, we are looking for spots with the smoothest response. Whether you are able to leave the sub in a particular spot depends on other factors, particularly what you wife thinks.

And when you are evaluating a potential placement, remember to measure the combined sub response. You never listen to a singe sub, so measuring a single sub has little value.

And also, as a quick experiment, try reversing the polarity on one sub and taking a measurement of the combined subs. We should rule out a polarity issue as well.
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Old 11-05-2016, 04:34 PM
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You are on the right track, but you may need to (temporarily) try some unconventional placements, like along the side wall or even in the rear of the room. Remember, we are looking for spots with the smoothest response. Whether you are able to leave the sub in a particular spot depends on other factors, particularly what you wife thinks.

And when you are evaluating a potential placement, remember to measure the combined sub response. You never listen to a singe sub, so measuring a single sub has little value.

And also, as a quick experiment, try reversing the polarity on one sub and taking a measurement of the combined subs. We should rule out a polarity issue as well.
Thats great i will try that as well,

For experimenting, i have two more focal ported subwoofers one that came with the speakers and second one different model and size.
is it ok to add/mix(ported with sealed,size) one or two subwoofers in the two spots available (back and side of the room)? or i should experiment with the left sub first before adding more subs?

in terms of connections, on the AVP i have two XLR subs outputs and two RCA subs outputs, can i use them in the same time so i can add total of 4 subs? as i didn't get the miniDSP 2x4 balanced yet although i do have a miniDSP 2x4 unbalanced on hand.

Thank you

Yariv

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Old 11-05-2016, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by avsion View Post
Thats great i will try that as well,

For experimenting, i have two more focal ported subwoofers one that came with the speakers and second one different model and size.
is it ok to add/mix(ported with sealed,size) one or two subwoofers in the two spots available (back and side of the room)? or i should experiment with the left sub first before adding more subs?

in terms of connections, on the AVP i have two XLR subs outputs and two RCA subs outputs, can i use them in the same time so i can add total of 4 subs? as i didn't get the miniDSP 2x4 balanced yet although i do have a miniDSP 2x4 unbalanced on hand.

Thank you

Yariv
If you try using four subs, you should use one sub connection from the AVR into the 2x4. This is described in the guide linked in my sig.

Nothing wrong with using all the subs you have. Mixing different kinds of subs is somewhat more difficult, but nothing wrong with trying it out to see how it sounds.
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Old 11-05-2016, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Audyssey will reverse polarity internally if it finds a reversed IR peak.
You could try different crossover points for C and LS/RS. Changing sub delay will probably make L and R worse. But it's worth a try.

P.S. If you do measurements please don't forget to measure with a timing reference. Without it not much can be said about relative phase.
Thanks Markus,

Do we know yet if this dip comes from the speakers or subwoofers?

in general i find 90HZ crossover for all speakers gives me the best sound/ integration both with my previous Denon 4311 and current Marantz and not just in my room.

I would like to do the measurements with a timing reference, what measurements i should take? i.e small, large, Audyssey on/off subs only etc also can you let me know how you take measurements with time reference both for speakers and subwoofers? i read jerry user guide and REW help file but still unsure. i enable it in the analysis choosing to "use acoustic as timing reference" and understand to use only full range speaker as the timing reference. when it come to measure the speaker that use as the time reference, i just use/change to another speaker? (hope it make sense) and how do i use time reference when measuring a subwoofers?

Thank you

Focal chorus 726 V, Focal chorus 705 V, Focal chorus CC 700 V, SVS SB13 ULTRA x 2,
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Last edited by avsion; 11-05-2016 at 05:37 PM.
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Old 11-05-2016, 05:41 PM
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Thanks Markus,

Do we know yet if this dip comes from the speakers or subwoofers?

in general i find 90HZ crossover for all speakers gives me the best sound/ integration both with my previous Denon 4311 and current Marantz and not just in my room.

I would like to do the measurements with a timing reference, what measurements i should take? i.e small, large, Audyssey on/off subs only etc also can you let me know how you take measurements with time reference both for speakers and subwoofers? i read jerry user guide and REW help file but still unsure. i enable it in the analysis choosing to "use acoustic as timing reference" and understand to use only full range speaker as the timing reference. when it come to measure the speaker that use as the time reference, i just use/change to another speaker? (hope it make sense) and how do i use time reference when measuring a subwoofers?

Thank you
I think the recommendation is to always configure a timing reference going forward. I don't think is is worthwhile re-doing any of the measurements you have already provided just to add the timing reference.

Refer to the guide WRT how to set up the timing reference. Use the same speaker all the time--I use one of my side surrounds.
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Old 11-05-2016, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I think the recommendation is to always configure a timing reference going forward. I don't think is is worthwhile re-doing any of the measurements you have already provided just to add the timing reference.

Refer to the guide WRT how to set up the timing reference. Use the same speaker all the time--I use one of my side surrounds.
Jerry is there a preference what speaker you use for the TR, for example is it OK to use a side surround like HDMI 5 and should this be set to large or does that not matter? I have this subs only measurement and when I use the CC + SUBS I can't get that dip out even with the sub distance tweak, any suggestions, maybe change CC crossover? Thanks



Then this:



Jeffrey
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