Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 697 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 12-19-2016, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Couple of comments.

First of all, the bass response in your listening room is comprised of the combined signals from both subs, plus the mains. In order to assess how the bass sounds, which I assume is what you want to do, you should provide the measurement of both subs together, plus the contribution of the mains. I usually measure subs+center because a lot of content for movies comes from the center.

In this measurement, we expect to see a smoothing of those big dips because of the summing of the signals coming from two subs and the center. Look for the smoothness around the crossover frequency. If the response is uneven, adjust the distances of both subs by the same amount, experimenting with different values and observing the effect on the smoothness of the response. This is the "sub distance tweak". If you still see big issues with the flatness of the response, the two options you have are placement of the subs, and adding yet another sub.

The second comment is on the waterfalls. Typically, we show the time slice going to 450ms, where you have it going to only 300ms, which makes the resonance look pretty bad in the examples you posted. You can re-post using 450ms, but if the resonance is still bad, you should consider adding bass traps to improve the bass response. Recsonance makes the bass sound diffuse, less precise, even "tubby". You be the judge--does it sound OK to you?
Doing sweeps as you suggest with all channels running (LCR + SR/SL + 2 subs??), should I do the sweeps with all channels running simultaneously? Or should the sweeps do one channel at a time and then average the responses (if that is even possible)? I've also been running the sub tests up to 200Hz, but I can increase that to 20khz.

I'm using HDMI from a Mac, so I assume I can just create an 8-channel aggregate device to test all channels.

I can also re-run these with all Room Correction and EQ (including Linkwitz Transform and PEQ) turned off, if that's the recommended way to proceed.

I'd say the bass sounds ok at certain frequencies, but there is a subjective lack of mid-bass chest thump. If this is due to the nature of the drivers I'm using, so be it. But I'd like to get whatever I can out of them. Room treatments are not out of the question, but I'd like to do whatever I can with EQ first.

Unfortunately my room is not a regular shape (open floor plan), so modeling room modes doesn't seem to be possible.

Updated waterfall graphs:

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Old 12-19-2016, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by andrewlef View Post
Doing sweeps as you suggest with all channels running (LCR + SR/SL + 2 subs??), should I do the sweeps with all channels running simultaneously? Or should the sweeps do one channel at a time and then average the responses (if that is even possible)? I've also been running the sub tests up to 200Hz, but I can increase that to 20khz.

I'm using HDMI from a Mac, so I assume I can just create an 8-channel aggregate device to test all channels.

I can also re-run these with all Room Correction and EQ (including Linkwitz Transform and PEQ) turned off, if that's the recommended way to proceed.

I'd say the bass sounds ok at certain frequencies, but there is a subjective lack of mid-bass chest thump. If this is due to the nature of the drivers I'm using, so be it. But I'd like to get whatever I can out of them. Room treatments are not out of the question, but I'd like to do whatever I can with EQ first.

Unfortunately my room is not a regular shape (open floor plan), so modeling room modes doesn't seem to be possible.
No, you misunderstood. You should measure only Center+Subs (HDMI3) or Left+Right+Subs (HDMI1+HDMI2). The main speakers should be stet to samall, of course, with a typical crossover, say 80Hz. Bass management routes the low frequencies to the subs. I prefer Center+Subs, but you could do both.

As for the waterfalls, they still look bad. What you are looking for is a "ridge" in the surface of the waterfall, one that starts at the very top and persists all the way to the bottom. This is an indication of "ringing", or a persistence of the bass note at a particular frequency. I see a particularly bad ridge at 90-100Hz, another at ~120Hz, and one at 60Hz. Only bass traps will tighten up the bass response by eliminating these resonances. But only if you are unhappy with the sound.
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Old 12-19-2016, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by andrewlef View Post
I'd say the bass sounds ok at certain frequencies, but there is a subjective lack of mid-bass chest thump.
From what I understand, that mid-bass chest thump comes from the region around 60Hz. Your subs' SPL is higher below that frequency. I don't know if you have it tuned that way.
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Old 12-19-2016, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
From what I understand, that mid-bass chest thump comes from the region around 60Hz. Your subs' SPL is higher below that frequency. I don't know if you have it tuned that way.
The subs are sealed, so there's no port to tune. I did a Linkwitz Transform to boost the bottom end, but that's about it. I appear to have a pretty deep null around 70hz or so.
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Old 12-19-2016, 06:16 PM
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Looking for an answer from the hive mind:

I have had a hell of a time getting the ASIO4ALL to work consistently. I've followed the "Getting Started with REW" to the letter (Rev 5.2 as listed on front page). I have the Dayton UMM-6 calibrated from Cross-Spectrum Acoustics. The problem I have is that it struggles to have both the MIC and the HDMI out active at the same time. I've tried the troubleshooting section suggestions and got it to work once, not repeatable though. I'm using the ****ty onboard graphics card. So my question is, what graphics cards are you folks running that are having success with REW? I'm thinking the mobo is ****ting itself trying to do both at once. Obviously I could run the Java drivers, but I'd like to give this a whirl if there seems to be a consensus of AMD/Nvidia cards running ASIO4ALL consistently.
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Old 12-19-2016, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuckinbeast View Post
Looking for an answer from the hive mind:

I have had a hell of a time getting the ASIO4ALL to work consistently. I've followed the "Getting Started with REW" to the letter (Rev 5.2 as listed on front page). I have the Dayton UMM-6 calibrated from Cross-Spectrum Acoustics. The problem I have is that it struggles to have both the MIC and the HDMI out active at the same time. I've tried the troubleshooting section suggestions and got it to work once, not repeatable though. I'm using the ****ty onboard graphics card. So my question is, what graphics cards are you folks running that are having success with REW? I'm thinking the mobo is ****ting itself trying to do both at once. Obviously I could run the Java drivers, but I'd like to give this a whirl if there seems to be a consensus of AMD/Nvidia cards running ASIO4ALL consistently.
ASIO has always been dicey, especially on older hardware. I purchased a new laptop earlier this year, running Windows 10, and have not had any issues at all since.
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Old 12-19-2016, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
ASIO has always been dicey, especially on older hardware. I purchased a new laptop earlier this year, running Windows 10, and have not had any issues at all since.
Any idea what graphics chipset its running? (That will be what houses the HDMI drivers and likely the ASIO4ALL compatibility.)
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Old 12-19-2016, 06:45 PM
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Intel on a Win10 laptop and no real issues. iirc, ASIO has a recent release. imo, each release of REW runs better and better.
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Old 12-19-2016, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by bmcn View Post
Intel on a Win10 laptop and no real issues. iirc, ASIO has a recent release. imo, each release of REW runs better and better.
Thanks, I'll give the drivers an update and give that a shot first. I didn't even realize that it had been 3 years+ since I built this little box. Where does the time go?
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Old 12-19-2016, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuckinbeast View Post
Any idea what graphics chipset its running? (That will be what houses the HDMI drivers and likely the ASIO4ALL compatibility.)
Intel.
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Old 12-19-2016, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Intel.
Thanks --- I feel like a total jag-off, drivers updated and is working normally. Intel onboard graphics chipset.
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Old 12-19-2016, 09:13 PM
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Don't feel bad. ASIO has been a PITA for many of us.
And don't be surprised if it stops working again.
Rebooting and/or restarting the program(s) usually works.
Usually.
Now get to work!
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Old 12-19-2016, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuckinbeast View Post
Thanks --- I feel like a total jag-off, drivers updated and is working normally. Intel onboard graphics chipset.
Unfortunately, ASIO4All is freeware, so we are not in a position to demand reliability or get technical support. You are certainly not alone in feeling frustration.
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Old 12-20-2016, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewlef View Post
Doing sweeps as you suggest with all channels running (LCR + SR/SL + 2 subs??), should I do the sweeps with all channels running simultaneously? Or should the sweeps do one channel at a time and then average the responses (if that is even possible)? I've also been running the sub tests up to 200Hz, but I can increase that to 20khz.

I'm using HDMI from a Mac, so I assume I can just create an 8-channel aggregate device to test all channels.

I can also re-run these with all Room Correction and EQ (including Linkwitz Transform and PEQ) turned off, if that's the recommended way to proceed.
Best course of action is to measure each speaker full bandwidth separately with a timing reference, no processing (LT, PEQ, HP, LP, etc.) and upload the .mdat.
On Mac you don't need to use an aggregate device anymore. The latest REW betas offer channel selection within the app.
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Last edited by markus767; 12-20-2016 at 06:38 AM.
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Old 12-20-2016, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewlef View Post
The subs are sealed, so there's no port to tune. I did a Linkwitz Transform to boost the bottom end, but that's about it. I appear to have a pretty deep null around 70hz or so.
Such high Q notches often aren't audible. Does it change frequency with position?
You should be more concerned with wide dips even if they aren't that deep.

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Old 12-20-2016, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
No, you misunderstood.
No, he just didn't read the Guide.
Andy, follow the link in Jerry's signature to his outstanding Guide. There is a table listing the readings you should take. Zip them, put them in a Dropbox, and link to them here.
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Old 12-20-2016, 06:38 AM
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BTW, just in case anyone here might be interested , there's a new demo disc up:
Mid-Bass Demo Disc Volume 1
Michael
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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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Old 12-20-2016, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
BTW, just in case anyone here might be interested , there's a new demo disc up:
Mid-Bass Demo Disc Volume 1
Michael
Oh, goodie! Can't wait to try it. Nice job.
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Old 12-22-2016, 06:38 PM
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Ok, I went ahead and did a set of new measurements, following the recommended settings in the Simplified REW Setup Guide. I uploaded the file to Dropbox, instead of posting the graphs here. Please advise if I should also post graphs.
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Old 12-22-2016, 09:06 PM
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A little help...

I have put this off long enough. Finally jumping into measuring my room. I have REW installed and working on my laptop but it just has analog out. Will that work to do what I need to do or do I need hdmi out to fully do this properly. For example I just was reading how to do the sweep with Left+sub and Right+ sub but I don't see how to do this. Apologies if I missed it. Thanks!
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Old 12-22-2016, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by dj7675 View Post
I have put this off long enough. Finally jumping into measuring my room. I have REW installed and working on my laptop but it just has analog out. Will that work to do what I need to do or do I need hdmi out to fully do this properly. For example I just was reading how to do the sweep with Left+sub and Right+ sub but I don't see how to do this. Apologies if I missed it. Thanks!
Darin
REW can be reasonably functional using the headphone output from the laptop into the RCA inputs on your AVR. This requires you to use the Java drivers in REW. This is covered in the REW guide.
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Old 12-22-2016, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
REW can be reasonably functional using the headphone output from the laptop into the RCA inputs on your AVR. This requires you to use the Java drivers in REW. This is covered in the REW guide.
Appreciate the help going down the rabbit hole. I did get it working. I guess I got a bit confused on measuring the left + sub and then the right + sub. Do I just unplug the input wire into the receiver so it only inputs one side at a time? Or later when I do a sub only sweep how do I just do the sub?

Thanks
Darin

Please disregard... didn't get far enough in the guide. I see it on page 44. Back to reading.

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Old 12-22-2016, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by dj7675 View Post
Appreciate the help going down the rabbit hole. I did get it working. I guess I got a bit confused on measuring the left + sub and then the right + sub. Do I just unplug the input wire into the receiver so it only inputs one side at a time? Or later when I do a sub only sweep how do I just do the sub?

Thanks
Darin

Please disregard... didn't get far enough in the guide. I see it on page 44. Back to reading.
You are on the right track. It just takes a bit more work with the Java drivers.
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Old 12-22-2016, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by andrewlef View Post
Ok, I went ahead and did a set of new measurements, following the recommended settings in the Simplified REW Setup Guide. I uploaded the file to Dropbox, instead of posting the graphs here. Please advise if I should also post graphs.
Andrew,

You have something serious going on in the 40-90Hz range. All three of what should be the "best" response curves, subs only, left+right+subs and center+subs, all with Audyssey on, show serious dips in the 40-90 Hz range. Do you have an idea what is going on there? I suggest focusing on this glaring issue as a high priority. And there seems to be another issue in the 200-300Hz range as well. I am not sure why you stopped measuring at 300Hz.
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Old 12-23-2016, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by dj7675 View Post
I have REW installed and working on my laptop but it just has analog out.
That's all my laptop does. It works fine for just about everything. I think the only thing I cannot easily do is the timing reference stuff.
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Old 12-23-2016, 06:28 AM
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That's all my laptop does. It works fine for just about everything. I think the only thing I cannot easily do is the timing reference stuff.
I'm new to REW, really just working my way through the guide and getting my first measurements.
Your post reminded me that I skipped the timing reference setup, because I don't really understand what it does for me. Can someone clarify what it will bring to the table for me?


Thanks!
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Old 12-23-2016, 06:36 AM
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I'm new to REW, really just working my way through the guide and getting my first measurements.
Your post reminded me that I skipped the timing reference setup, because I don't really understand what it does for me. Can someone clarify what it will bring to the table for me?


Thanks!
In very simple terms it will help identify phase/timing issues between speakers but I suggest reading the REW help file. HST, the beauty of REW is that you can use the timing reference now with limited understanding of it and then revisit later when you understand better only having taken one set of measurements.
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Old 12-23-2016, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post
In very simple terms it will help identify phase/timing issues between speakers but I suggest reading the REW help file. HST, the beauty of REW is that you can use the timing reference now with limited understanding of it and then revisit later when you understand better only having taken one set of measurements.
Ok, that makes sense. As you said, I can use it now and (hopefully) understand it better. That really seems to be the way of my "REW learning curve": I follow steps, walk thru the guides, and don't get it all. 20ish pages later (or 2 hours, whichever happens first) I have a "ohhhhhh, I *get* it now!" moment.


Probably just me, I always learn better thru doing!
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Old 12-23-2016, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Andrew,



You have something serious going on in the 40-90Hz range. All three of what should be the "best" response curves, subs only, left+right+subs and center+subs, all with Audyssey on, show serious dips in the 40-90 Hz range. Do you have an idea what is going on there? I suggest focusing on this glaring issue as a high priority. And there seems to be another issue in the 200-300Hz range as well. I am not sure why you stopped measuring at 300Hz.


I was following the measurement guidelines posted in the guide. Should I be doing something different?

Additionally, I just realized I had some MiniDSP filters on while I ran the sweeps. I'll have to shut those off and redo it all.

That said, I'm not sure what is going on in the 40-90Hz range. Maybe I have some serious room modes there? Idk.




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Old 12-23-2016, 08:16 AM
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hi All, very new to this. I will be going through the guide (probably will be tackling this in the next few weeks) to get some info in order to find out where to place my acoustic panels. These have already been purchased based on the recommendations of the seller.

I just had a few questions before I dive in:

1.) I already purchased the dayton iMM-6 microphone, is it best to use this directly with an app using an ipad or should I get a 3.5mm adapter splitter to connect it to my laptop?
2.) Once REW is installed, and I get the output files, going through the REW guide, will I be able to know exactly where the panels should go? Can I also post them here for help?
3.) Will the results be more or less covering all first reflections? similar to using the mirror trick?

thanks
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