Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 715 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #21421 of 22626 Old 02-04-2017, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Still old REW version, still no timing reference used. You could do all the time alignment testing in REW...
I'll be doing all the speakers and subs individually today with the timing reference and uploading the mdat again today. Thanks Markus!... Can't beleive I keep forgetting to enable the timing reference.... Grrrrr!!

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post #21422 of 22626 Old 02-04-2017, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I agree, the measurement with zero delay looks to be the best. And extending the crossovers to 200Hz improves upon the rapid bass fall-off that was shown in the previous measurements. Next step would be to measure subs+center with varying crossovers. Pick the crossover that results in the smoothest response and then apply the sub distance tweak to see if it can be improved even more.

Are you enjoying your homework assignments?
Im enjoying it but a bit frustrated as I keep forgetting to enable the acoustic timing measurements for Markus and have already wasted time doing the measurments...for nothing because I didnt bloody enable the stupid thing lol hahaha.
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post #21423 of 22626 Old 02-04-2017, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Still old REW version, still no timing reference used. You could do all the time alignment testing in REW...

Hi Markus,

I have attached the acoustic timing measurements here for my Mains. However I couldnt get the acoustic timing measurments working on my subs!! . Im using the old RCA method which plugs into my headphone jack so Im not using the HDMI way.

Everytime I tried to do the acoustic timing measurement with the sub....it wouldnt do anything as it was waiting for that high pitch sound to pass through the microphone before it runs the sweep test...*It didnt make a high pitch sound as I disconnected the mains because I was only trying to measure one sub at a time with no mains* So it would just the run the test giving me the frequency response but without giving me an acoustic timing measurement....Is there a way around this?

Here is my mdat for the speakers anyway...if it means anything lol.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6oip20p6dg...ming.mdat?dl=0

Thanks again
Kevin
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post #21424 of 22626 Old 02-04-2017, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by buddhamus View Post
Hi Markus,

I have attached the acoustic timing measurements here for my Mains. However I couldnt get the acoustic timing measurments working on my subs!! . Im using the old RCA method which plugs into my headphone jack so Im not using the HDMI way.

Everytime I tried to do the acoustic timing measurement with the sub....it wouldnt do anything as it was waiting for that high pitch sound to pass through the microphone before it runs the sweep test...*It didnt make a high pitch sound as I disconnected the mains because I was only trying to measure one sub at a time with no mains* So it would just the run the test giving me the frequency response but without giving me an acoustic timing measurement....Is there a way around this?

Here is my mdat for the speakers anyway...if it means anything lol.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6oip20p6dg...ming.mdat?dl=0

Thanks again
Kevin
Of course you are not going to get the timing reference tone if you disconnect the main speakers--where do you think the timing reference is coming from. To measure the subs with a timing reference, select the left speaker to receive the test tone, disconnect the left speaker to silence it, and set the timing reference to be output on the right speaker, which you will leave plugged in. You don't have to output to left+right to measure the subs.

And I am not sure why you say that you keep forgetting to enable the timing reference. Once you set the timing reference output speaker, the setting stays active until you manually turn it off, even if you exit the REW program. How is it getting turned off?
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post #21425 of 22626 Old 02-04-2017, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by buddhamus View Post
Here is my mdat for the speakers anyway...if it means anything lol.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6oip20p6dg...ming.mdat?dl=0

Thanks again
Kevin
When I try to download the file, I get a message that the file is still uploading. Did you finish uploading it on your end?
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post #21426 of 22626 Old 02-04-2017, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Of course you are not going to get the timing reference tone if you disconnect the main speakers--where do you think the timing reference is coming from. To measure the subs with a timing reference, select the left speaker to receive the test tone, disconnect the left speaker to silence it, and set the timing reference to be output on the right speaker, which you will leave plugged in. You don't have to output to left+right to measure the subs.

And I am not sure why you say that you keep forgetting to enable the timing reference. Once you set the timing reference output speaker, the setting stays active until you manually turn it off, even if you exit the REW program. How is it getting turned off?
Thanks Jerry!... The timing reference turns off.... Because I never applied it in the first place lol.... Now that I have it should always be there now. I'll run some sub sweeps tonight!

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post #21427 of 22626 Old 02-04-2017, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
When I try to download the file, I get a message that the file is still uploading. Did you finish uploading it on your end?
Thanks Jerry, tried your method right now and it works great. Will have the subs acoustic time references sometime tonight. I'm reuploading the mains time referrnces now.

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post #21428 of 22626 Old 02-04-2017, 10:27 PM
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Here you go Jerry and Markus...these are the mains only. Ill post the subs timing references tonight.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6oip20p6dg...ming.mdat?dl=0

Cheers,
Kevin
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post #21429 of 22626 Old 02-05-2017, 02:52 AM
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Here are the subs....acoustic timing reference.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vvqxi92mpq...ming.mdat?dl=0

Thanks again Markus and Jerry
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post #21430 of 22626 Old 02-05-2017, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddhamus View Post
Here are the subs....acoustic timing reference.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vvqxi92mpq...ming.mdat?dl=0

Thanks again Markus and Jerry
Run it though MSO. Depending on what outboard equipment you have you should be able to improve the response.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #21431 of 22626 Old 02-05-2017, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddhamus View Post
Here are the subs....acoustic timing reference.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vvqxi92mpq...ming.mdat?dl=0

Thanks again Markus and Jerry
Kevin, I think the combined sub response looks pretty good. Now, if we could just see subs+center at position 1, 15-20,000Hz, we could see how well the subs and the mains have blended. Feel free to measure positions 2&3 as well to see how well-balanced the response is over a wider area than just the MLP. Did you ever try the sub distance tweak?

While MSO might be a good exercise for you to try, I suspect you could be perfectly happy with the response you have without any additional work.
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post #21432 of 22626 Old 02-05-2017, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Kevin, I think the combined sub response looks pretty good. Now, if we could just see subs+center at position 1, 15-20,000Hz, we could see how well the subs and the mains have blended. Feel free to measure positions 2&3 as well to see how well-balanced the response is over a wider area than just the MLP. Did you ever try the sub distance tweak?

While MSO might be a good exercise for you to try, I suspect you could be perfectly happy with the response you have without any additional work.
Will do that soon for you, Jerry!... No haven't done the sub distance tweak yet... But will try that sometime this week when the Mrs leaves me alone lol...

Yeah with the whole MSO thing.... It really looks complicated and not sure I can be bothered delving into It atm.....I Honestly I just want to set up my system and just enjoy it....so I want to set it up and leave it!

I'll post the centre plus subs acoustic timing reference? That's what you wanted yeah? I'll have to put it in PL2 mode yeah with the both rcas plugged in.... Would the test tone route into the centre channel even if I select the left or right channel In REW for the acoustic timing referencr, correct?

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post #21433 of 22626 Old 02-06-2017, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddhamus View Post
Will do that soon for you, Jerry!... No haven't done the sub distance tweak yet... But will try that sometime this week when the Mrs leaves me alone lol...

Yeah with the whole MSO thing.... It really looks complicated and not sure I can be bothered delving into It atm.....I Honestly I just want to set up my system and just enjoy it....so I want to set it up and leave it!

I'll post the centre plus subs acoustic timing reference? That's what you wanted yeah? I'll have to put it in PL2 mode yeah with the both rcas plugged in.... Would the test tone route into the centre channel even if I select the left or right channel In REW for the acoustic timing referencr, correct?

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I keep forgetting that you are not using ASIO. Forget center+subs. Do left+subs and right+subs. We want to observe the combined response and see how smooth it is in the crossover region. Also, remind us what crossover value you are using. And all measurements going forward should include the timing reference. Just set it up and forget about it.
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post #21434 of 22626 Old 02-06-2017, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I keep forgetting that you are not using ASIO. Forget center+subs. Do left+subs and right+subs. We want to observe the combined response and see how smooth it is in the crossover region. Also, remind us what crossover value you are using. And all measurements going forward should include the timing reference. Just set it up and forget about it.
Cool, I'll find the crossover that gives me the smoothest response using the distance tweak and I'll use that from there on in. Will post it all for you as soon as I get some time too!

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post #21435 of 22626 Old 02-06-2017, 12:22 PM
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Partially Functional Measurements

I recently arrived in what Jerry's Guide refers to as "Partially Functional" status - I.e. - I'm using an older HP Laptop with a sound card that only provides Left & Right channels. Additionally - my new AVR - Denon 6200 doesn't offer PLII Cinema as a sound option. My most recent measurements were taken with the AVR in Stereo mode - I utilized the sub distance tweak, as well as experimenting with different crossovers Even though the Laptop only allows for measuring Left & Right, I found that making changes to the center crossover influenced the results. I found that lowering the L & R crossover to 40 and the center crossover to 60 produced the best results - although that appears contrary to most suggestions to keep crossovers around 80 and let the subs do most of the work. Any how in my room running a 7.1.4 Atmos configuration with 2 PSA subs (XS-15 & XS-30) the results appear & sound pretty good.
So here's my question - what am I missing by not being able to directly measure the interaction of the subs + center, and are there any external USB sound cards available that might allow me to produce a subs + center measurement. I know that Jerry mentions one alternative in the guide - " move a speaker cable from the left or right speaker and measure the center channel by sending the test tone to that connection." But for me that approach is cumbersome and I'm searching for an alternative - or confirmation that my existing measurements are accurate enough. The attached measurements are taken with no smoothing/AVR in Stereo mode - appreciate any feedback and/or suggestions.
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post #21436 of 22626 Old 02-06-2017, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
Ok, been running many REW measures and have attached below three comparison measures between what Audyssey XT32 came up with and with what I managed to tweak with Audyssey off and REW.

In summary, I essentially did the following:

1. lowered my two subs' volumes by -2db each
2. changed LFP for LFE setting from 120Hz (Audyssey set) to 80Hz
3. dropped individual speaker crossovers as follows:
Front 60Hz (Aud had this at 150Hz)
Center 60Hz (Aud had this at 80Hz)
4. Added two PEQ settings on each sub. 1st setting lowers 56Hz centered wide range by -12db; second setting lowers 56Hz slightly less wide range by -12db (so two PEQs basically doing the same thing)

Let me know what you think in regards to an improvement.

As AustinJerry said, I have a tough room.
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
What is your understanding of what lowering the LPF for LFE does? This setting only affects the LFE channel, which on a typical movie recording will contain information up to 120Hz. Lowering the LPF for LFE simply "throws away" any content above 80Hz--it isn't re-directed anywhere. And it certainly has no effect on the measurements that you provided. So, leqve this setting at 120Hz where it belongs.

HST, the non-Audyssey measurements do look slightly better, although both sets of measurements leave room for improvement.

So, what happens when you leave the PEQ settings in place, and run Audyssey on top? Surely it doesn't make things worse, does it?
Ok, finally got around to taking the measurements you were wondering about.

First of all, I put LPF for LFE back to 120Hz.
Next, I re-ran REW measures for L/C/R channels using the initial Audyssey run I had done with the comparison measures I had posted previously. This was with no PEQ set.
These you see in red above, with one caveat: I lowered my sub's volume (directly on the each sub) from what Audyssey needed me to have to register the sub (-2db) to what I felt was less boomy (-8db). More on that below.
Then I did a bunch of re-measures with REW to set my two PEQ settings on each sub (PEQ 1 and PEQ2)
I also found leaving subs at -8db (again, sub volume not AVR volume) was best.

Then, I re-ran Audyssey XT32 again (8 measures) with the provided mic with my Marantz SR7010.
The resulting measures with REW was worse than what I had adjusted with PEQ before, and the required -2db for Audyssey to work was too high again.
So I lowered the subs volume to -8db again on each sub, and played with the PEQs to get the best curve (slight adjustments from step above) to finally arrive at PEQ settings as follows:
PEQ1: 40Hz, -8db, Q:5.7
PEQ2: 56Hz, -10db, Q:7.2

So in summary:
Red = initial Audyssey measure with subs at -8db
Green = post PEQ adjustments Audyssey measure with subs still at -8db

Feedback is appreciated, but I'm not sure what else I can do here.

So, as an aside:
When I run Audyssey it asks for me to boost my subwoofer dials' (two subs) to -2db in order to even register them to take part in the Audyssey measure.
Then REW measures prove this is just way too high (so do my ears, as bass is too boomy).
So with watching REW measures, I set it at -8db as mentioned above...but, is this ok? Why doesn't Audyssey recognize this? Am I throwing off things lowering the sub volume (on the subs themselves)?

Edit:
Almost forgot, so upon making the PEQ adjustments, Audyssey lowered my crossovers to what I feel begins to approach accurate for my speakers.
Initially, it set it as follows (left) and (right) is what it now set it to after the two PEQ adjustments on each sub.
Fronts: before 150Hz, now 120Hz
Centre: before 80Hz, now 40Hz
Surrounds: before 120Hz, now 110Hz
Rear Surrounds: before 200Hz, now 150Hz
Top Middles: before 150Hz, now 120Hz

Now, I measured my fronts on their own with a Sine sweep measure and confirmed the ~-3db drop on the measure (LF, RF alone) is around 60Hz, so even the 120Hz by Audyssey still seems too high for them, but better than the pre-PEQ Audyssey setting of 150Hz.
Thoughts?
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post #21437 of 22626 Old 02-06-2017, 04:09 PM
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Measuring Center+Subs using Java drivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggsantafe View Post
I recently arrived in what Jerry's Guide refers to as "Partially Functional" status - I.e. - I'm using an older HP Laptop with a sound card that only provides Left & Right channels. Additionally - my new AVR - Denon 6200 doesn't offer PLII Cinema as a sound option. My most recent measurements were taken with the AVR in Stereo mode - I utilized the sub distance tweak, as well as experimenting with different crossovers Even though the Laptop only allows for measuring Left & Right, I found that making changes to the center crossover influenced the results. I found that lowering the L & R crossover to 40 and the center crossover to 60 produced the best results - although that appears contrary to most suggestions to keep crossovers around 80 and let the subs do most of the work. Any how in my room running a 7.1.4 Atmos configuration with 2 PSA subs (XS-15 & XS-30) the results appear & sound pretty good.
So here's my question - what am I missing by not being able to directly measure the interaction of the subs + center, and are there any external USB sound cards available that might allow me to produce a subs + center measurement. I know that Jerry mentions one alternative in the guide - " move a speaker cable from the left or right speaker and measure the center channel by sending the test tone to that connection." But for me that approach is cumbersome and I'm searching for an alternative - or confirmation that my existing measurements are accurate enough. The attached measurements are taken with no smoothing/AVR in Stereo mode - appreciate any feedback and/or suggestions.
The bass response looks good. I wouldn't change a thing.

BTW, for those of you who are using java, and since the current generation of D&M AVR's have removed Dolby Pro Logic II in favor of Dolby Surround, the question has become--if not PLII, then how can we measure Center+Subs? Ask and ye shall receive an answer!

I ran three measurements of Center+Subs from the MLP without moving the mic. The three measurements were:

- ASIO using HDMI3 (the current standard)
- Java using Dolby Surround
- Java using DTS Neural:X

The results are shown in the screenshots below.

Conclusions:

- Java using DTX Neural:X seems to do a better job matching the ASIO results than Dolby Surround.
- In the critical 15-300Hz bass response range, DTS Neural:X has essentially the same response as ASIO.
- Dolby Surround seems to be the better choice above 300Hz.

I plan on updating the REW Guide with these results once I have received and considered any feedback.
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post #21438 of 22626 Old 02-08-2017, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
Ok, finally got around to taking the measurements you were wondering about.

First of all, I put LPF for LFE back to 120Hz.
Next, I re-ran REW measures for L/C/R channels using the initial Audyssey run I had done with the comparison measures I had posted previously. This was with no PEQ set.
These you see in red above, with one caveat: I lowered my sub's volume (directly on the each sub) from what Audyssey needed me to have to register the sub (-2db) to what I felt was less boomy (-8db). More on that below.
Then I did a bunch of re-measures with REW to set my two PEQ settings on each sub (PEQ 1 and PEQ2)
I also found leaving subs at -8db (again, sub volume not AVR volume) was best.

Then, I re-ran Audyssey XT32 again (8 measures) with the provided mic with my Marantz SR7010.
The resulting measures with REW was worse than what I had adjusted with PEQ before, and the required -2db for Audyssey to work was too high again.
So I lowered the subs volume to -8db again on each sub, and played with the PEQs to get the best curve (slight adjustments from step above) to finally arrive at PEQ settings as follows:
PEQ1: 40Hz, -8db, Q:5.7
PEQ2: 56Hz, -10db, Q:7.2

So in summary:
Red = initial Audyssey measure with subs at -8db
Green = post PEQ adjustments Audyssey measure with subs still at -8db

Feedback is appreciated, but I'm not sure what else I can do here.

So, as an aside:
When I run Audyssey it asks for me to boost my subwoofer dials' (two subs) to -2db in order to even register them to take part in the Audyssey measure.
Then REW measures prove this is just way too high (so do my ears, as bass is too boomy).
So with watching REW measures, I set it at -8db as mentioned above...but, is this ok? Why doesn't Audyssey recognize this? Am I throwing off things lowering the sub volume (on the subs themselves)?

Edit:
Almost forgot, so upon making the PEQ adjustments, Audyssey lowered my crossovers to what I feel begins to approach accurate for my speakers.
Initially, it set it as follows (left) and (right) is what it now set it to after the two PEQ adjustments on each sub.
Fronts: before 150Hz, now 120Hz
Centre: before 80Hz, now 40Hz
Surrounds: before 120Hz, now 110Hz
Rear Surrounds: before 200Hz, now 150Hz
Top Middles: before 150Hz, now 120Hz

Now, I measured my fronts on their own with a Sine sweep measure and confirmed the ~-3db drop on the measure (LF, RF alone) is around 60Hz, so even the 120Hz by Audyssey still seems too high for them, but better than the pre-PEQ Audyssey setting of 150Hz.
Thoughts?
Just hoping to get someone to weigh in on this analysis. Thanks.
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post #21439 of 22626 Old 02-08-2017, 10:36 AM
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First time using REW or trying a room EQ for my subwoofer. I have a dedicated theater and have a very basic question. I watched Andrew Robinson's tutorial and at the end he says to take your readings for Frequency, Gain and Q and put them in the AVR. I have an Onkyo TX-SR876 with Audyssey MultiEQ XT. Where do i enter the numbers for Frequency, Gain and Q?
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post #21440 of 22626 Old 02-08-2017, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
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Just hoping to get someone to weigh in on this analysis. Thanks.
I am finding some difficulty following what was going on during your Audyssey calibration. Here is what should be happening, so tell me where your experience was different:

1. Establish the best pre-Audyssey response using PEQ.
2. Launch Audyssey and proceed to the sub level test. Adjust sub levels so the combined signal reads 75dB. (Ideally, the subs should be gain-matched, and the combined gain-matched signal should reach 75dB at the MLP.)
3. Complete the 8-position Audyssey calibration.
4. Observe the resulting sub channel trim level to make sure it is not maximized at -12 or +12. If not maximized, leave the setting alone, and don't alter the gain settings on the subs themselves.
5. Using the REW SPL meter and the AVR speaker level-setting test tones (AVR output set to zero), measure the output of each speaker as well as the combined sub output. All should measure close to 75dB at the MLP. If you see significant differences from 75dB, report back.

Now, let's discuss some peculiarities in the last measurements you posted. I am assuming the measurements were taken without altering the Audyssey recommended crossovers (left and right at 120Hz, and center at 40Hz).

Note that the low frequency response of the left and right speakers tapers off significantly below 100Hz, while the center channel low frequency does the opposite--it rises below 100Hz. This is counter-intuitive. Low frequencies below the crossover are handled by the subs, and should not taper off like they are doing. And the center channel seems to be outputting more bass than the subs--that's strange.

You say that bass sounds boomy. The first thing I would do is raise the center channel crossover to at least 80Hz, and possibly even to 120Hz to match the left and right. It's the center channel that is causing the boominess. Then measure the center channel response to see if its bass response more closely matches the left and right channel. And what is your theory regarding the rather anemic low frequency response from the subs? Is it because you lowered the gain setting on the subs (which you should not have done)?
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post #21441 of 22626 Old 02-08-2017, 05:10 PM
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When measuring with REW to find the smoothest sub placement with multiple subs do you need to adjust the distance for every position you move it too? I have 2 subs equidistant from MLP on front wall. I am trying to integrate a third sub in back of room. I also can't figure out how to get rid of the big dip at 17hz, any ideas? just different sub placements? Do I have to do a 1 position cal to get the distance correct for the back sub before I measure at MLP for each spot?
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post #21442 of 22626 Old 02-08-2017, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by MBrown2020 View Post
When measuring with REW to find the smoothest sub placement with multiple subs do you need to adjust the distance for every position you move it too? I have 2 subs equidistant from MLP on front wall. I am trying to integrate a third sub in back of room. I also can't figure out how to get rid of the big dip at 17hz, any ideas? just different sub placements? Do I have to do a 1 position cal to get the distance correct for the back sub before I measure at MLP for each spot?
If you are measuring one sub at a time during the placement exercise, the distance setting makes no difference. When measuring the combined sub signal, then yes, the distances should be adjusted to reflect the new values. You can do this with approximate physical distances, or with a one-position Audyssey calibration.

WRT to 17Hz dip, what are the room dimensions? Or is that the second measurement?

Also, please post a combined measurement for all three subs. Or is that the second measurement?

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post #21443 of 22626 Old 02-08-2017, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
If you are measuring one sub at a time during the placement exercise, the distance setting makes no difference. When measuring the combined sub signal, then yes, the distances should be adjusted to reflect the new values. You can do this with approximate physical distances, or with a one-position Audyssey calibration.

WRT to 17Hz dip, what are the room dimensions? Or is that the second measurement?

Also, please post a combined measurement for all three subs. Or is that the second measurement?
The layout is in picture, room is 11'5" x 20'2" open to dining room, hallway, and kitchen.
The second graph is with 3rd sub added, no audyssey.

The following graph is with audyssey ran this last weekend.
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post #21444 of 22626 Old 02-08-2017, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I am finding some difficulty following what was going on during your Audyssey calibration. Here is what should be happening, so tell me where your experience was different:

1. Establish the best pre-Audyssey response using PEQ.
2. Launch Audyssey and proceed to the sub level test. Adjust sub levels so the combined signal reads 75dB. (Ideally, the subs should be gain-matched, and the combined gain-matched signal should reach 75dB at the MLP.)
3. Complete the 8-position Audyssey calibration.
4. Observe the resulting sub channel trim level to make sure it is not maximized at -12 or +12. If not maximized, leave the setting alone, and don't alter the gain settings on the subs themselves.
5. Using the REW SPL meter and the AVR speaker level-setting test tones (AVR output set to zero), measure the output of each speaker as well as the combined sub output. All should measure close to 75dB at the MLP. If you see significant differences from 75dB, report back.

Now, let's discuss some peculiarities in the last measurements you posted. I am assuming the measurements were taken without altering the Audyssey recommended crossovers (left and right at 120Hz, and center at 40Hz).

Note that the low frequency response of the left and right speakers tapers off significantly below 100Hz, while the center channel low frequency does the opposite--it rises below 100Hz. This is counter-intuitive. Low frequencies below the crossover are handled by the subs, and should not taper off like they are doing. And the center channel seems to be outputting more bass than the subs--that's strange.

You say that bass sounds boomy. The first thing I would do is raise the center channel crossover to at least 80Hz, and possibly even to 120Hz to match the left and right. It's the center channel that is causing the boominess. Then measure the center channel response to see if its bass response more closely matches the left and right channel. And what is your theory regarding the rather anemic low frequency response from the subs? Is it because you lowered the gain setting on the subs (which you should not have done)?
Hi Austin Jerry, I tried to follow my responses from yours sequentially below so it’s easier to follow:

I followed your 1-4 steps as you detailed here, but the only thing would be that ahead of step 1 I had already done one Audyssey calibration so I used that as a starting point.

Then, in doing step 1 I also lowered the subwoofers’ direct volume (not through AVR) by about 6db (from -2db to -8db on the digital dial). This is because the REW measures used in doing step 1 were showing anything below 150Hz or so to be about ~10db higher than the rest of the response curve. Furthermore, I played content leaving the sub’s volume at what Audyssey wanted it at and it was there that it sounded very boomy.
Doing step 2 required me to again raise both my subwoofers’ direct volume settings back up by about 6db from where I was getting more even REW response curves as described above. If I didn’t raise it again, Audyssey was asking me if I wanted to skip the subs being included in the calibration, which I didn’t want of course. So I raised it back up to -2db on the digital dial in both subwoofers.

I then successfully did step 3, and ensured step 4 was ok (sub trim level was at about -8db in the AVR after Audyssey).
However, in step 4 if I do as you say and not lower the subs’ gain, I’m going to get hugely inflated frequency curve under 150Hz again and boomy bass in the room (see post #21367 for what that looks like in REW).
Now, as for step 5, I didn’t quite use the REW SPL meter to see if it was 75db. Isn’t this a factor of whatever volume setting the AVR is on at the time I do the REW? Why so important to have it be close to 75db as soon as Audyssey is done and to report back if it varies significantly?

I did not alter the crossovers for the measurements I last posted. The green response curve plotted in post #21436 is as Audyssey set them and are as follows:

Fronts: 120Hz (Paradigm Studio 60s)
Centre: 40Hz (Paradigm CC-690)
Surrounds: 110Hz (Paradigm Elite In-wall E80-IW)
Rear Surrounds:150Hz (Paradigm Elite In-ceiling E80-A)
Top Middles: 120Hz (Paradigm Elite In-ceiling E80-R)

Now I measured my LF/RF alone without sub, and their curve tapers off around 60Hz, so the 120Hz surprises me that Audyssey set it at that, even though it’s down from 150Hz from and earlier Audyssey run I did before setting PEQs on the subs.

I totally agree with you that it is odd that the center and fronts do the opposite on the curve and thus why likely also Audyssey set the two crossovers so differently.

The bass no longer sounds boomy once I lower the subwoofers’ gain settings by the -6db.

Is it safe to raise the center channel crossover to 80Hz? It won’t mess with the Audyssey? Again, I think my fronts are actually being set to high at 120Hz given what I wrote above about measuring them alone and seeing it drop off at 60Hz.

The anemic low frequency response from the subs may be a result of my lowering their gains by 6db, but again I only did that because the response curve was like I posted in #21367 ). If I don’t lower it, do you think by just raising the center channel’s crossover the boominess would be gone?

Thanks for all your help with this, btw.
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post #21445 of 22626 Old 02-08-2017, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MBrown2020 View Post
The layout is in picture, room is 11'5" x 20'2" open to dining room, hallway, and kitchen.
The second graph is with 3rd sub added, no audyssey.

The following graph is with audyssey ran this last weekend.
The 17Hz dip is not associated with room dimensions. I suspect it is simply the natural roll-off of the sub response in your room. The slight tail-up down towards 15Hz is probably room gain. So, not sure there is anything you can do about it. But 17Hz is pretty low--not much content lives down there.

Otherwise, the response curve doesn't look too bad. The variations are roughly 5dB, which is relatively normal.
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post #21446 of 22626 Old 02-08-2017, 09:10 PM
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Hi Austin Jerry, I tried to follow my responses from yours sequentially below so it’s easier to follow:

I followed your 1-4 steps as you detailed here, but the only thing would be that ahead of step 1 I had already done one Audyssey calibration so I used that as a starting point.
Regardless of what you did prior to running Audyssey, Audyssey set the sub level to match the levels of the other speakers. This sounded bass-heavy because something else is wrong, as shown in the previous post where the bass response on the center channel was elevated. I recommended raising the center channel crossover to the same value as the left and right speakers (120Hz). Raising the Audyssey-recommended crossover is perfectly acceptable--it's lowering the crossover that is not recommended. By doing that, we will be able to see if the overall center channel response in closer to what you are seeing on the left and right channels, and will potentially alleviate the bass-heavy sound. There is nothing wrong with moving the center channel bass reproduction from the center speaker to the sub. After all, bass frequencies are better reproduced by a sub than a main speaker.

Now let me repeat once again--you should not touch the sub gain controls after Audyssey has completed. If you absolutely must lower overall bass output, lower the sub channel trim in the AVR. And please don't lower the sub level until you have measured its output level, discussed below.

And finally, to measure speaker output levels, use the AVR speaker level-setting test tones. Start the test tone and increase the AVR master volume control to zero for the measurement. As stated earlier, the test tones should register 75dB, using the REW SPL meter and the mic placed in the MLP. And of course it depends on the AVR volume level--that's why you need to set the MV to zero. The 75dB target is what Audyssey calibration is designed to achieve. A 75dB output level will ensure that the AVR's master volume is calibrated so that you achieve reference levels when the MV=0. (The test tones are -30dBFS, so when playing at dBFS=0, a total output of 105dB is reached, which is 75+30.) I am very interested to see a listing of the measured REW output levels for each speaker, especially the sub channel, to see how close the readings are to 75dB.
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post #21447 of 22626 Old 02-09-2017, 11:25 AM
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Just to confirm, based on your recommendations, here’s what I will do the next chance I get to run REW:

1. Since I recently ran Audyssey, I won’t run it again but instead un-do some of the post-Audyssey adjustments I made, so:
2. Put the sub gain level back to what Audyssey set it at (-2db), but I will leave the sub trim level (AVR) alone so it will be at what Audyssey set it at.
3. Raise the center channel crossover to 120Hz (from what Audyssey set it at on the last run which was 40Hz).
4. Measure speaker output levels using the AVR’s test tones and the REW SPL meter by raising the AVR’s master volume to zero (seems really loud, but ok).
5. Ensure the speaker output levels on all speakers, including each sub on it’s own, measures 75db.

Please confirm if this looks good.

Also, for the last step, should I measure the sub’s output at 75db for each sub separately or both of them together?
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post #21448 of 22626 Old 02-09-2017, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
Just to confirm, based on your recommendations, here’s what I will do the next chance I get to run REW:

1. Since I recently ran Audyssey, I won’t run it again but instead un-do some of the post-Audyssey adjustments I made, so:
2. Put the sub gain level back to what Audyssey set it at (-2db), but I will leave the sub trim level (AVR) alone so it will be at what Audyssey set it at.
3. Raise the center channel crossover to 120Hz (from what Audyssey set it at on the last run which was 40Hz).
4. Measure speaker output levels using the AVR’s test tones and the REW SPL meter by raising the AVR’s master volume to zero (seems really loud, but ok).
5. Ensure the speaker output levels on all speakers, including each sub on it’s own, measures 75db.

Please confirm if this looks good.

Also, for the last step, should I measure the sub’s output at 75db for each sub separately or both of them together?
When you say setting the MV to zero seems really loud, let me repeat it once again, because you don't seem to be understanding. The AVR test tones are designed to output a level of -30dBFS from reference when the MV=0. -30dBFS = 75dB, which is not very loud. This is the purpose of the test tones.

And measure combined sub level, not individual sub levels.
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post #21449 of 22626 Old 02-09-2017, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
When you say setting the MV to zero seems really loud, let me repeat it once again, because you don't seem to be understanding. The AVR test tones are designed to output a level of -30dBFS from reference when the MV=0. -30dBFS = 75dB, which is not very loud. This is the purpose of the test tones.

And measure combined sub level, not individual sub levels.
Ok, got it. Thanks.
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post #21450 of 22626 Old 02-09-2017, 07:33 PM
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Questions before I try my first REW measurements in a few days.

1. Should I use REW's Java or ASIO Drivers (I'm connecting via hdmi)?

2. Should I reset my avr's speaker distances to zero, or just keep them as is now? (My avr does not any sort of Audyssey feature, so the avr distances now are the actual physically measured distances. )

3. I listen with my center channel +2 in my avr. Before I measure, should I reset it to zero?

4. On my 2 subwoofers (which I will measure separately), should I change/set their GAIN or LF EQ buttons to anything in particular?

5. In Preferences / Levels, when should I use "Use subwoofer test signal..." and when should I "Use main speaker test signal..."?

6. What I should choose for Timing Reference Output?

7. What should I choose for Loopback Input?

8. Before starting, is it correct that I should level set match all speakers and subwoofers to 75 hz?

9. Should I use the 90? file and point the microphone at the ceiling, or use the other file (I guess it is the 0? file) and point the microphone at each speaker?

10. My avr has its crossovers set at 80 Hz, and it's using that (I think this is called "avr bass management"). Do I need to turn off avr bass management before taking any REW measurements? Like use a Pure Direct mode?

11. My avr does NOT have any distance setting for the subwoofer - should I do anything differently in REW because of that?

12. There are like 3 REW step by step guides (REW's Help, a guide by AustinJerry, one by Minidsp). Probably more than 3. Is there one that is considered the easiest, most up to date, and best?
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