Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 724 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #21691 of 22382 Old 02-23-2017, 06:28 AM
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An issue I ran into was having my Sony TV connected to the AVR. My comnputer kept switching between recognizing the AVR and TV. Caused my laptop serious fits, so I had to unplug the TV HDMI. Made switching between YPAO modes quite difficult.

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post #21692 of 22382 Old 02-23-2017, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I'd say your graph looks fantastic, and especially so since you are just starting out. Many on this forum would probably kill to be able to start with a frequency response like yours.

That dip at 80hz is very, very narrow. It is almost certainly not audible during actual content.

That being said, it would still drive me crazy.

Can you move your CC forward or backward a few inches (I mean physically move the speaker) to see if it makes any difference?
Thanks Alan! I'm starting to really get the hang of how to measure but the interpreting and fully understanding the graphs is where I am at now.

Yes, I'm rather anal so getting it flat as possible is my goal...That's why I went dual!

Right now, the front of my CC is just past the edge of the shelf it's on but I can play around with it's position. I have about an inch I can pull it out and several backwards but I think I want to avoid moving it back. I will try both though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
IIRC, you bought dual subs, right? If so, are they placed so that they are equidistant to the MLP? If they are not, yes, adjusting phase on one of the subs (the closer sub) should produce some good results. If they are equidistant to the MLP, then adjusting phase shouldn't do much, but it doesn't hurt to experiment and measure.

BTW, XT does have subwoofer EQ...just not as detailed as XT32.
I did go dual...the near one is about 2 feet closer. I will experiment and see what I can come up with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
This is a great technique using REWs generator and SPL meter:
At What Point Do I "Play" With The 0/180 Phase Switch On Dayton 1500 SUB?
Michael
Thank you Michael! I will definitely give this a try!

I may not get to measure again until the weekend but I will certainly report back with a new graph as soon as I have one. Thanks for the help guys!

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post #21693 of 22382 Old 02-23-2017, 07:36 AM
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Markus,

Bands capable of adjustment:

Speakers
62.5 Hz -- 157.5 Hz -- 396.9 Hz -- 1Khz -- 2.52 Khz -- 6.35 Khz -- 16 Khz

Subwoofer
15.6 Hz -- 19.7 Hz -- 24.8 Hz -- 31.3 Hz -- 62.5 Hz -- 125 Hz -- 250 Hz

Q factor: 0.5 - 10.8
Gain: -20 db to +6 dB

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post #21694 of 22382 Old 02-23-2017, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammonje View Post
Is there any information that shows the speaker assignments? I am running 5.1, but the software shows 1.1 thru 1.8. I thought it was the subwoofer, but hell at this point I'm just stoked to produce a graph.
1 ...8 = L R C LFE LS RS LBS RBS
Should be in Jerry's guide, no?
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post #21695 of 22382 Old 02-23-2017, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammonje View Post
Markus,

Bands capable of adjustment:

Speakers
62.5 Hz -- 157.5 Hz -- 396.9 Hz -- 1Khz -- 2.52 Khz -- 6.35 Khz -- 16 Khz

Subwoofer
15.6 Hz -- 19.7 Hz -- 24.8 Hz -- 31.3 Hz -- 62.5 Hz -- 125 Hz -- 250 Hz

Q factor: 0.5 - 10.8
Gain: -20 db to +6 dB
Thanks. Now do the 3 measurements outlined in post 21674. For now measure through channel 4 (LFE). In your AVR set the LFE low pass filter to off or the highest value possible. Don't forget to use an acoustic timing reference.
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post #21696 of 22382 Old 02-23-2017, 07:57 AM
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Thanks. Will do tonight and report results.

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post #21697 of 22382 Old 02-23-2017, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
I used my laptop from the front room that runs the TV and sound equipment and it has equalizer APO installed on it and running
If you're using ASIO, E-APO is bypassed. If you want to see what E-APO is doing, you have to run REW under JAVA (then you use E-APO to turn the speakers on and off).
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post #21698 of 22382 Old 02-23-2017, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
1 ...8 = L R C LFE LS RS LBS RBS
Should be in Jerry's guide, no?
I happen to have my laptop connected up right now, so I generated some tones, and my outputs are different from what you listed:

HDMI5=LBS, 6=RBS, 7=LS, 8=RS.

Why would we differ?
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post #21699 of 22382 Old 02-23-2017, 01:21 PM
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I believe the more commonly used format is L C R LFE LSR RSR LSS RSS

i.e. rear surrounds are channels 5 & 6

however both mappings exist

sample post with too much detail - http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...85#post1443085
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post #21700 of 22382 Old 02-23-2017, 06:41 PM
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Markus, here are the requested measurements. All were taken with time reference. 512K.

No YPAO, YPAO volume off. No other enhancers engaged.

SW


LR Main (1/6 octave smoothing)


LRC (1/6 octave smoothing)

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post #21701 of 22382 Old 02-23-2017, 06:43 PM
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YPAO Natural.

SW


LR Main (1/6 octave smoothing)


LRC (1/6 octave smoothing)

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post #21702 of 22382 Old 02-23-2017, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Well, try this and see how it sounds, and measures. What you are proposing is called "double bass", and is generally not recommended because it can produce bloated, boomy bass. But maybe you will like it...
Finally got a chance to give this a shot tonight (double bass) by setting the Fronts to Large and Sub to PLUS on the VSX-44. The FR actually doesn't look much better at all.



I cut the graph off at 200Hz because the Frequency Response is the exact same to 20,000Hz past that between the two.

Since there isn't too much difference in FR, I will give it a shot and see how I like it for a while. However, during these sweeps I decided to turn my sub 90 degrees CC so that its now facing in a different direction and with some MiniDSP 2x4HD and PEQ filter help, my LFE FR looks the best I think it ever has in my room.



The only thing I still cannot figure out is why a full 5-20,000Hz sweep with CH1, CH2, or CH3 doesn't seem to crossover nicely. Also has a huge bump from 7000Hz to 13,000Hz - something to do with the room maybe? Anyway for me to work on this?

Notice the jumpiness between 100-1,000Hz.


Here is the CC Sweep with less smoothing:
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Check out my most recent subwoofer frequency response (1 vs. 2 port) and full system response.
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post #21703 of 22382 Old 02-23-2017, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammonje View Post
Markus, here are the requested measurements. All were taken with time reference. 512K.

No YPAO, YPAO volume off. No other enhancers engaged.

[...]
Looks like you've measured all speakers but not just the sub at 3 different mic locations?
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post #21704 of 22382 Old 02-24-2017, 06:15 AM
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OK. I'll do that this afternoon. Getting off a bit early today. Thanks.

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post #21705 of 22382 Old 02-24-2017, 10:31 AM
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Markus. I moved the SW from the corner to just left of my console in order to attempt a flatter target.

SW Mic Center


SW Mic Left


SW Mic Right


SW Average 3 positions

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post #21706 of 22382 Old 02-24-2017, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Hammonje View Post
Markus. I moved the SW from the corner to just left of my console in order to attempt a flatter target.

SW Mic Center
[...]
Can you please upload the .mdat to Dropbox or similar?

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post #21707 of 22382 Old 02-24-2017, 01:48 PM
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I can place it in my Google Drive and share it.

Here is a link to the .mdat file on my Google Drive:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0X...ew?usp=sharing

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post #21708 of 22382 Old 02-25-2017, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Hammonje View Post
I can place it in my Google Drive and share it.

Here is a link to the .mdat file on my Google Drive:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0X...ew?usp=sharing
Thanks. Looks like there's not much variance and just one non-minimum phase region around 85Hz.





So besides that area the whole response can be equalized. Unfortunately the fixed center frequency EQ of your AVR doesn't allow the necessary fine control to make it as flat as it could be. Especially the ringing at 27Hz is still there after EQ.



Attached you'll find your Yamaha's sub EQ filter set (yamaha-sub-filters.req) that you can load into "EQ filters" (use the "Generic" equalizer). Then click "Optimize gains & Qs".
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post #21709 of 22382 Old 02-25-2017, 12:49 AM
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With 5 PEQs you could get from this...



...to that...

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post #21710 of 22382 Old 02-25-2017, 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Yes, measure with an acoustic timing reference:
1. Set timing reference to L
2. Measure LFE
3. Measure R
4. Increase speaker distance of L and R by the same amount
5. Measure LFE
6. Measure R
If the measurements show always the same delay between sub and R then you're out of luck and you need to buy a new AVR with proper bass management.
Hallo Markus,
Finally got around to report back: The first picture shows the measurements as described by you in 1 - 3. Timing reference is Front Left FL, and measurements are FL, FR, and LFE. The SW delay is about 2.5 ms (using the start of first peak in the SW impulse).
Then distance for L and R were increased by 1meter in the AVR. Results are the same.
So in this way, I cannot correct the delay between L, R, C and SW.

Coming back to my post 21520. With my standard setup, the proper speaker distance is:
FrontLeft 2.6m, FrontRight 2.6m, FrontCenter 2.6m, SurroundLeft 1.7m, SurroundRight 2.3m.

If I increase the SurroundRight distance setting to higher than 2.6, then the impulse response shows a reduced delay between L, R, C and SW. This shows that the AVR sets a delay for a speaker depending on the difference between that speaker distance and the maximum speaker distance.

So I could have:
Use the original distance settings, and have a 2.5ms delay between L, R, C and SW,
or,
Use the trick with increased surroundright distance, which eliminates the delay between L, R, C and SW. But then there is time mismatch between surroundright and the other channels (of approximately 3.5ms).
What is best? My profile is movies. My gut feeling says that it is more important to get the front stage right, with the proper synchronizing of L, R, C and SW, at the expense of the surround channel.
This would be a short term solution. Longer term, I hope miniDSP would bring an HDMI AVRHD with Dirac and Bass Management before Dirac.
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post #21711 of 22382 Old 02-25-2017, 01:23 AM
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What is best?
Get a new AVR. Sorry but the one you have right now is simply "unfit for purpose".

Markus

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Last edited by markus767; 02-25-2017 at 01:47 AM.
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post #21712 of 22382 Old 02-25-2017, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Get a new AVR. Sorry but the one you have right now is simply "unfit for purpose".
At the moment, I have other priorities (first get a job; then pay off student loans). In the meantime, I was hoping to get some advise and help to keep my mental curiosity in this field going and progressing.
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post #21713 of 22382 Old 02-25-2017, 10:20 AM
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At the moment, I have other priorities (first get a job; then pay off student loans). In the meantime, I was hoping to get some advise and help to keep my mental curiosity in this field going and progressing.
What's your AVR? I relish a budget challenge (what can we do with what you have, how cheap can we replace it, etc).
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post #21714 of 22382 Old 02-25-2017, 10:43 AM
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I love spending other people's money (what can we do with what you have, how cheap can we replace it, etc.).

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post #21716 of 22382 Old 02-25-2017, 11:12 PM
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I have a ported diy ultimax um18-22 sub and after a few tweaks in the inuke this is what i got. i'm thinking it looks ok but would like some feedback. the enclosure size is 20" wide 22" deep and 24" tall. everyone tells me its too small for the driver but i figured i'd test it out first before i do a mini marty in case it works and i can stick with it before moving on.
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post #21717 of 22382 Old 02-26-2017, 06:42 AM
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I have a ported diy ultimax um18-22 sub and after a few tweaks in the inuke this is what i got. i'm thinking it looks ok but would like some feedback. the enclosure size is 20" wide 22" deep and 24" tall. everyone tells me its too small for the driver but i figured i'd test it out first before i do a mini marty in case it works and i can stick with it before moving on.
The response below 80Hz looks pretty good, but it falls off fairly quickly above 80Hz, which seems odd. Two additional measurements would be useful to look at:

1. A measurement of the sub only, with the crossover to the mains set as high as possible, typically 250Hz. This will show whether the sub response extends above 80Hz without being affected by a crossover. Measure 15-300Hz, no smoothing.

2. A measurement of sub+Center with crossover in place, typically 80Hz. This will show how well the sub and center are blending, especially around the crossover point, and whether the center fills in the response above 80Hz. Measure 15-300Hz, no smoothing.
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post #21718 of 22382 Old 02-26-2017, 11:41 AM
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Hello guys, when it's mentioned to change or alter the phase (delay) of the closer sub to MLP, are we talking about decreasing the distance versus increasing? Please excuse my ignorance but one would expect to increase the delay of the closer sub to compensate for the differences of the FF sub. I do know that the closer sub's delay does indeed need to be decreased but don't understand the reasoning for it, it does sound counter intuitive but know it's the right way, please explain. TIA
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post #21719 of 22382 Old 02-26-2017, 12:04 PM
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That's what flipping the phase does - equivalent to moving the sub several feet.
By changing the phase, you're giving the sound waves time to "line up" at MLP.
As I understand it at a very basic level.
Michael
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post #21720 of 22382 Old 02-26-2017, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The response below 80Hz looks pretty good, but it falls off fairly quickly above 80Hz, which seems odd. Two additional measurements would be useful to look at:

1. A measurement of the sub only, with the crossover to the mains set as high as possible, typically 250Hz. This will show whether the sub response extends above 80Hz without being affected by a crossover. Measure 15-300Hz, no smoothing.

2. A measurement of sub+Center with crossover in place, typically 80Hz. This will show how well the sub and center are blending, especially around the crossover point, and whether the center fills in the response above 80Hz. Measure 15-300Hz, no smoothing.
i'm still fiddling with REW but yes when i did it the crossover was at 80 on the receiver. i'll bump it all the way and rerun it again. not sure how to do the measurement with the center but will study up on that today.
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