Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 739 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 03-30-2017, 07:51 AM
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Can someone check my understanding of sub distance tweak procedure, please?

Take a total of 3 measurements:

Center + Sub (using HDMI 1 3)
Center with subs disconnected (using HDMI 1 3)
Subs with Center disconnected (using HDMI 1 3)

Yamaha should be set to 'Straight' to disable any PEQ

Thanks!

Mike

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Old 03-30-2017, 08:00 AM
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Nope, that's for selecting the crossover point.
Sub distance is center (if movies are your main diet) or L/R (if music is primary) and sub(s) at different distances as set in your AVR (start with differences of at least a foot). After several runs, you'll see a trend that gets you the flattest response at the crossover point.
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:04 AM
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Thanks Michael - that might answer my question about whether a 100Hz crossover would be better for the Center as well, though.

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Old 03-30-2017, 08:44 AM
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When I am taking measurements my headroom is about 42dB. What do I adjust to get within the appropriate range?

Yamaha CX-A5100, Emotiva XPA-7 gen3, JTR Orbit Shifter LFU, LCR DIYSG Fusion 15, Rear Sur. Tannoy 802's, Atmos Micca M-8C, TV LG 65UH8500

Pre-Pro: Yamaha CX-A5100, Amp: D-Sonic M3-5400-7, Subs: 3 JTR Orbit Shifter LFU's, LCR: DIYSG F-15 Sentinels, Surrounds: Tannoy 802's, 4k player: Panasonic UB-900, 4k Gaming PC
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Old 03-30-2017, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Varner View Post
When I am taking measurements my headroom is about 42dB. What do I adjust to get within the appropriate range?

Yamaha CX-A5100, Emotiva XPA-7 gen3, JTR Orbit Shifter LFU, LCR DIYSG Fusion 15, Rear Sur. Tannoy 802's, Atmos Micca M-8C, TV LG 65UH8500
The REW measurement level is typically -12dBFS. To establish the desired headroom, place the mic in the MLP, open the REW SPL meter and the Signal Generator, select Pink Noise subwoofer cal @-12dBFS, play the tone and adjust AVR MV until the REW SPL reads 90dB.

My MV level is typically -11, but since you are using the UMM-6 and a different AVR, your level may be different.
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Old 03-30-2017, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjmcmahon67 View Post
Can someone check my understanding of sub distance tweak procedure, please?

Take a total of 3 measurements:

Center + Sub (using HDMI 1 3)
Center with subs disconnected (using HDMI 1 3)
Subs with Center disconnected (using HDMI 1 3)

Yamaha should be set to 'Straight' to disable any PEQ

Thanks!

Mike
Mike, you arrived at this from reading the procedure I linked?

1. Measure subs+center.
2. Adjust the combined distance for the subs. Try adding 5'.
3. Re-measure.
4. Looks worse? Lower to 4' and re-measure.
5. Still looks worse? Lower to 3' and re-measure.
6. Repeat until the distance results in the smoothest response.

This is actually quite easy.

Last edited by AustinJerry; 03-30-2017 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 03-30-2017, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The REW measurement level is typically -12dBFS. To establish the desired headroom, place the mic in the MLP, open the REW SPL meter and the Signal Generator, select Pink Noise subwoofer cal @-12dBFS, play the tone and adjust AVR MV until the REW SPL reads 90dB.

My MV level is typically -11, but since you are using the UMM-6 and a different AVR, your level may be different.
I have done that and on my AVR -17mv is where i reach 90dB. I ran another measurement and in the spectorgram I am maxing at 107dB. I think the issue is with my windows properties mic volume. After doing the tests we did before for John and making changes to the mic volume. I'm not sure where to leave it now.

I see at 0% mic volume I have 31.4dB headroom and at 100% mic volume I have 2.4dB headroom.

Where should I leave the mic volume for taking measurements?
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Old 03-30-2017, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Varner View Post
I have done that and on my AVR -17mv is where i reach 90dB. I ran another measurement and in the spectorgram I am maxing at 107dB. I think the issue is with my windows properties mic volume. After doing the tests we did before for John and making changes to the mic volume. I'm not sure where to leave it now.

I see at 0% mic volume I have 31.4dB headroom and at 100% mic volume I have 2.4dB headroom.

Where should I leave the mic volume for taking measurements?
We established with John that the Windows setting has no effect on the dB output of REW measurements. So the "correct" setting is one that does not produce clipping during the measurement (too high), or results in a warning that the level is too low. Anywhere in between is perfectly acceptable, and makes no difference in the measurements. Typically, the measurement should have 10-20dB headroom. Time to pick a setting and move on.
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Old 03-30-2017, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
We established with John that the Windows setting has no effect on the dB output of REW measurements. So the "correct" setting is one that does not produce clipping during the measurement (too high), or results in a warning that the level is too low. Anywhere in between is perfectly acceptable, and makes no difference in the measurements. Typically, the measurement should have 10-20dB headroom. Time to pick a setting and move on.
I realized that but now I'm talking about headroom not dB output in REW. Where to leave the mic volume was my original question that was never answered.

But now you have answered it. Thanks


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Old 03-30-2017, 12:12 PM
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I was also looking at getting an SPL meter to go along with the REW setup. What dB weighting filter on the meter should I use? (A, C or Z)
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Old 03-30-2017, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Hanna View Post
I was also looking at getting an SPL meter to go along with the REW setup. What dB weighting filter on the meter should I use? (A, C or Z)
C, Slow. But you would be better served by getting a USB mic, IMO.
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Old 03-30-2017, 12:49 PM
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And a good (ie, accurate) meter will cost as much as a calibrated mic.
Nice to have, but get the mic first.
Michael
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Old 03-30-2017, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Mike, you arrived at this from reading the procedure I linked?

1. Measure subs+center.
2. Adjust the combined distance for the subs. Try adding 5'.
3. Re-measure.
4. Looks worse? Lower to 4' and re-measure.
5. Still looks worse? Lower to 3' and re-measure.
6. Repeat until the distance results in the smoothest response.

This is actually quite easy.
Yup - did it and wound up selecting a 100Hz crossover for the Center as well as it provided the flattest response. You're correct that it's easy, but when one only does it once every few years, it's easy to get it crosswise in your head.

Now I'm letting MSO do its magic

PJ - Sony VPLHW45ES / Screen - EliteScreens 120" CineGrey / BD - Sony BDP-S5100 / AVR - Yamaha RX-A3030
Speakers - B&W 683S2/ HTM61S2 / 685 Surrounds / Fluance Signature Bi-polar Rear Surrounds/ PSA S1500 & XS15se subs
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Old 03-30-2017, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjmcmahon67 View Post
Yup - did it and wound up selecting a 100Hz crossover for the Center as well as it provided the flattest response. You're correct that it's easy, but when one only does it once every few years, it's easy to get it crosswise in your head.

Now I'm letting MSO do its magic
If you are going to explore MSO, please make sure you document before and after results and post them here, please.
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Old 03-30-2017, 01:44 PM
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Now that the miniDSP UMIK-1 seems to be back in stock, what would be a good mic stand for REW measurements?
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Old 03-30-2017, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
If you are going to explore MSO, please make sure you document before and after results and post them here, please.
That sounds somewhat ominous....I did just get some very odd results and had asked in that thread about them:
Final gain and delay/distance settings:
Decrease AVR sub out trim gain by 1.5 dB
Sub Channel 1 gain: -0.16 dB
Sub Channel 2 gain: -2.53 dB
Increase AVR sub out distance by 7.6 feet
Delay settings:
Sub Channel 1 delay: 0.01 msec
Sub Channel 2 delay: 21.80 msec

This was AFTER doing the distance tweak....something smells in Denmark

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Old 03-30-2017, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Hanna View Post
Now that the miniDSP UMIK-1 seems to be back in stock, what would be a good mic stand for REW measurements?
Just about anything inexpensive that keeps the mic where you want it without touching anything else.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...FciKswodGzIGEQ
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Old 03-30-2017, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Hanna View Post
Now that the miniDSP UMIK-1 seems to be back in stock, what would be a good mic stand for REW measurements?
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ..._Boom_Mic.html

$20 free shipping
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Old 03-30-2017, 02:29 PM
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I think I paid 20 bucks for boom mic stand on amazon......I think it was a samson brand.

They key is getting one with a mic holder included that fits the umik.......

The only thing I would have liked better was one with a longer swing arm to extend out over the seating better.

Link to budget Home Theater build

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Old 03-30-2017, 02:30 PM
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I have started taking measurements in REW and I am not sure which mode on the Yamaha CX-A5100 to use to give me full control of 7.1 channels and where no kind of signal processing is applied. Straight mode shows only L R and sub on the front display so no 7.1. Any of the movie settings have some kind of signal processing applied.

In Jerry's REW Guide he suggest using "MULTI CH IN 7.1" which I assume is for a Denon or Marrantz. What would be the equivalent setting for a Yamaha CX-A5100? I assume the newer Yamaha AVR's would be pretty much the same.

PS- I am using ASIO and HDMI
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Old 03-30-2017, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Varner View Post
I have started taking measurements in REW and I am not sure which mode on the Yamaha CX-A5100 to use to give me full control of 7.1 channels and where no kind of signal processing is applied. Straight mode shows only L R and sub on the front display so no 7.1. Any of the movie settings have some kind of signal processing applied.

In Jerry's REW Guide he suggest using "MULTI CH IN 7.1" which I assume is for a Denon or Marrantz. What would be the equivalent setting for a Yamaha CX-A5100? I assume the newer Yamaha AVR's would be pretty much the same.

PS- I am using ASIO and HDMI

My current AVR is also the Yamaha A5100 and I use straight mode. Don't worry about only the left and right channels showing on the display. The other channels will all play fine when chosen in REW. If you want a set of baseline measurements one thing you want to make sure is that you have the EQ choice set to manual and choose PEQ DATA CLEAR. This will zero out all EQ and clear out the YPAO RSC settings too. Might want to run all speakers as full and keep that mdat file for reference to compare against any future EQ'd results.
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Old 03-30-2017, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dryeye View Post
My current AVR is also the Yamaha A5100 and I use straight mode. Don't worry about only the left and right channels showing on the display. The other channels will all play fine when chosen in REW. If you want a set of baseline measurements one thing you want to make sure is that you have the EQ choice set to manual and choose PEQ DATA CLEAR. This will zero out all EQ and clear out the YPAO RSC settings too. Might want to run all speakers as full and keep that mdat file for reference to compare against any future EQ'd results.
Perfect thanks for the info. That's what I was figuring but the 5100 only displaying LR and SUB threw me off.

Good tip on clearing out the PEQ and saving the .mdat

Yamaha CX-A5100, Emotiva XPA-7 gen3, JTR Orbit Shifter LFU, LCR DIYSG Fusion 15, Rear Sur. Tannoy 802's, Atmos Micca M-8C, TV LG 65UH8500

Pre-Pro: Yamaha CX-A5100, Amp: D-Sonic M3-5400-7, Subs: 3 JTR Orbit Shifter LFU's, LCR: DIYSG F-15 Sentinels, Surrounds: Tannoy 802's, 4k player: Panasonic UB-900, 4k Gaming PC
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Old 03-30-2017, 06:49 PM
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Old 03-31-2017, 07:35 AM
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Got some measurements on my sub and I have some really bad ringing. It sounds very muddy and bloated. A little info about my space it is roughly 30x30 basement concrete walls, on a slab and my sub in the center of the room behind MLP. I have not tried anything with placement just put where i felt like. My question is where should I start as far as placement and will better placement clear up my ringing issue or help it in anyway?

my sub is 225lbs so I'm trying to get a decent idea of where to start.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7zr8ledrpl...%20EQ.jpg?dl=0
Sub only no EQ
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rj3ts91stq...%2080.jpg?dl=0
Sub only no EQ
https://www.dropbox.com/s/peu1mhq0f2...%20EQ.jpg?dl=0
Sub + LR no EQ
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hpjxze1ba7...%2080.jpg?dl=0
Sub + LR no EQ

Pre-Pro: Yamaha CX-A5100, Amp: D-Sonic M3-5400-7, Subs: 3 JTR Orbit Shifter LFU's, LCR: DIYSG F-15 Sentinels, Surrounds: Tannoy 802's, 4k player: Panasonic UB-900, 4k Gaming PC

Last edited by David Varner; 03-31-2017 at 07:39 AM.
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Old 03-31-2017, 07:40 AM
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Sub crawl.
Put the sub at the MLP, move around the room with your ears or mic and find the spots where it sounds best. Put sub there.
Michael

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Old 03-31-2017, 07:48 AM
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Sub crawl.
Put the sub at the MLP, move around the room with your ears or mic and find the spots where it sounds best. Put sub there.
Michael
To my knowledge the sub crawl only really help with SPL at MLP that may not necessarily help the ringing. Correct me if i'm wrong.

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Old 03-31-2017, 08:26 AM
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It will help find the best place for the sub for overall sound (not just spl, which is why it's helpful to use REW - you're not looking for "one note bass"). If you still have ringing, you need to treat the room.
Michael
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Old 03-31-2017, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge584 View Post
if you want to get rid of this problem for every place in your room, then you must add some acoustic treatment to your room.
If you only want to correct this problem for a small area : EQ fine tunning is the key, or just use a good antimode.
I have been "moving" my 225lb refrigerator sized sub around and it is making a difference on decay. Albeit fixing one frequency and making another worse. I can tell I will need some treatments but I still got a few more spots to try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
It will help find the best place for the sub for overall sound (not just spl, which is why it's helpful to use REW - you're not looking for "one note bass"). If you still have ringing, you need to treat the room.
Michael

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Old 03-31-2017, 10:53 AM
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I have found my spot for the sub without EQ LR+sub for all measurements here is the difference from original placement. Not perfect but the best I could do in my room.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xacbv0tvyo...after.jpg?dl=0
After moving

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gbb4ezpz6x...efore.jpg?dl=0
Before Moving

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mqfdil8zea...rlay2.jpg?dl=0
overlay green before blue after

If anyone can give me some constructive feedback I would appreciate it. Also in the overlays is there anyway to get a plot line to lay perfectly over the other one if the SPL was a little higher or lower for a measurement?

Pre-Pro: Yamaha CX-A5100, Amp: D-Sonic M3-5400-7, Subs: 3 JTR Orbit Shifter LFU's, LCR: DIYSG F-15 Sentinels, Surrounds: Tannoy 802's, 4k player: Panasonic UB-900, 4k Gaming PC
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Old 03-31-2017, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Varner View Post
I have found my spot for the sub without EQ LR+sub for all measurements here is the difference from original placement. Not perfect but the best I could do in my room.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xacbv0tvyo...after.jpg?dl=0
After moving

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gbb4ezpz6x...efore.jpg?dl=0
Before Moving

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mqfdil8zea...rlay2.jpg?dl=0
overlay green before blue after

If anyone can give me some constructive feedback I would appreciate it. Also in the overlays is there anyway to get a plot line to lay perfectly over the other one if the SPL was a little higher or lower for a measurement?
As far as getting the two measurements to line up, open the Controls tool, go to the Measurements Offsets box, select the measurement from the drop-down, and enter an offset.

And as far as improving bass frequency response and reduce ringing, there are two approaches: additional subs, and tons of treatments. The former is most effective, the latter assumes you have WAF acceptance to add treatments to the listening room. Getting smooth response with only one sub is extremely difficult.
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Dayton , Dayton Audio , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew
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