Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 745 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #22321 of 23435 Old 04-18-2017, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by David Varner View Post
Quick question? What is going to be the best dsp solution to integrating 3 subwoofers. I am using XLR connections could use RCA but prefer not to.
I got a used Xilica processor. XLR in/out, long delays, it was a good buy. New they are pretty pricey but used it might make sense.
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post #22322 of 23435 Old 04-18-2017, 07:33 PM
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I got a used Xilica processor. XLR in/out, long delays, it was a good buy. New they are pretty pricey but used it might make sense.
Wow your not kidding about price. I just dropped 6k on two more subs not much budget left. Let me get my feet wet with minidsp and then I will atleast have an understanding of features I need and don't need and can make an informed decision.

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post #22323 of 23435 Old 04-18-2017, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by David Varner View Post
Wow your not kidding about price. I just dropped 6k on two more subs not much budget left. Let me get my feet wet with minidsp and then I will atleast have an understanding of features I need and don't need and can make an informed decision.

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Another factor we haven't discussed is whether you expect the device you purchase to also provide additional DSP processing for the sub channel. I think that is where a device like the Xilica stands out. Of course, with the MiniDSP products, there is integration with REW's EQ tool, which you may find useful. Other than consolidating the sub signals and providing time-alignment, are you planning on any DSP processing as well?
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post #22324 of 23435 Old 04-18-2017, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Another factor we haven't discussed is whether you expect the device you purchase to also provide additional DSP processing for the sub channel. I think that is where a device like the Xilica stands out. Of course, with the MiniDSP products, there is integration with REW's EQ tool, which you may find useful. Other than consolidating the sub signals and providing time-alignment, are you planning on any DSP processing as well?
Yes I do plan on dsp processing with REW's EQ tool. I did purchase the 2x4hd and some RCA cables. So I will see how that works out. Not a huge investment and if I need or decide to go a different direction.

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post #22325 of 23435 Old 04-18-2017, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by David Varner View Post
Yes I do plan on dsp processing with REW's EQ tool. I did purchase the 2x4hd and some RCA cables. So I will see how that works out. Not a huge investment and if I need or decide to go a different direction.

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how good are you with computers?

there is whole wide world of affordable pc based dsp out there you just have to be willing to get your hands dirty a little bit

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post #22326 of 23435 Old 04-19-2017, 04:21 AM
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how good are you with computers?

there is whole wide world of affordable pc based dsp out there you just have to be willing to get your hands dirty a little bit
Pretty good and have a PC as part of my HT can you point me to a link. I'm curious.

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post #22327 of 23435 Old 04-19-2017, 04:37 AM
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Pretty good and have a PC as part of my HT can you point me to a link. I'm curious.

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for the cheapest solution youll need a pc at least 1 ghz( you local thrift store should have one under $10)
and a pci based sound card. for bass only an m-audio delta 44 may work. about $25 on ebay.

then take a look at this thread for how to set up. it starts at Level 0

DIY Linux DSP pc Step-by-step videos

you can go as cheap or as expensive as you want. my setup is a silent pc and an rme converter. it cost me about $600 but it has 8 inputs and 8 outputs.

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post #22328 of 23435 Old 04-19-2017, 06:15 AM
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Pretty good and have a PC as part of my HT can you point me to a link. I'm curious.
https://sourceforge.net/projects/equalizerapo/
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post #22329 of 23435 Old 04-19-2017, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
No, the AVR distance setting will not work. You need to apply individual delays for each sub. Looks like the 2x4HD will be your best choice.

BTW, I used a one-position Audyssey calibration to determine the "electronic" distance for each of my subs. The electronic distance, because of delays in the sub electronics, can be difficult to determine by other means. Perhaps YPAO can do the same.
Good idea. Run calibration with YPAO with each sub individuality and see what distance it comes up with and use that a rough estimate. Convert it into milliseconds and use those delay numbers on the minidsp.

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post #22330 of 23435 Old 04-21-2017, 04:53 AM
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This series of articles says the mic should be pointed downward. We say upward. Does it matter?

http://www.hifizine.com/2011/06/bass...-guide-part-1/
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post #22331 of 23435 Old 04-21-2017, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
This series of articles says the mic should be pointed downward. We say upward. Does it matter?

http://www.hifizine.com/2011/06/bass...-guide-part-1/
It doesn't make any difference for a typical setup with all speakers in the ground plane. The point of an up or down orientation is that signals from all speakers in the ground plane "graze' the tip of the mic. The grazing is the same for either orientation. However, with the down orientation, it may be more difficult to keep the mic stand from blocking line-of-sight to all speakers.

When ceiling speakers are introduced, the "grazing" is somewhat less valid. IMO, if you have ceiling speakers, pointing the mic upwards is more valid. A downward orientation places the mic barrel between the ceiling speakers and the mic tip, which could adversely affect the measurements.

That article is pretty old, and ceiling speakers had not yet been introduced.
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post #22332 of 23435 Old 04-21-2017, 07:20 AM
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I have ordered two new subs (Rythmik FV18s) to replace my 9 years old Hsu VTF-3 MK3 Turbo. I plan to place one each on the outside of a front speaker. The attached photo shows the relevant area. One will be placed in the same general area where the Hsu is shown and the other will go on the other side where the brass pot shown in the pic now stands. Each of the new subs will be a few inches more that 7 feet from the MLP.

I would appreciate it if someone could suggest where I should place my UMIK-1 and laptop respectively when I'm running sweeps to give me ideas how to configure the new subs. When I have run REW before, I have put the mic on a table immediately to the right of the MLP and sat at the MLP holding the laptop while it generated test tones. Any help would be appreciated.
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post #22333 of 23435 Old 04-21-2017, 07:41 AM
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I have ordered two new subs (Rythmik FV18s) to replace my 9 years old Hsu VTF-3 MK3 Turbo. I plan to place one each on the outside of a front speaker. The attached photo shows the relevant area. One will be placed in the same general area where the Hsu is shown and the other will go on the other side where the brass pot shown in the pic now stands. Each of the new subs will be a few inches more that 7 feet from the MLP.

I would appreciate it if someone could suggest where I should place my UMIK-1 and laptop respectively when I'm running sweeps to give me ideas how to configure the new subs. When I have run REW before, I have put the mic on a table immediately to the right of the MLP and sat at the MLP holding the laptop while it generated test tones. Any help would be appreciated.
You've made it this far, time to drop $20 more dollars and get a boom stand (thanks to @David Varner ), so you can position the mic right in-between where your ears usually are when sitting at the MLP, which is also where you should place your AVR mic when you run room correction (I'm usually positioned off to the side when running sweeps)
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post #22334 of 23435 Old 04-21-2017, 08:04 AM
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You've made it this far, time to drop $20 more dollars and get a boom stand (thanks to @David Varner ), so you can position the mic right in-between where your ears usually are when sitting at the MLP, which is also where you should place your AVR mic when you run room correction (I'm usually positioned off to the side when running sweeps)
Thanks for your advice. I just learned this morning how to use AirPlay to connect my Macbook Pro running REW to my audio system via an Apple TV connected to my HT setup so that the REW test tones now come from the audio system's speakers. This means that it won't matter where the computer is when I run scans, so I can move out of the way. I'm looking forward to trying this out, it represents a real breakthrough for me.

I should add that The YPAO mic that came with my Yamaha RX-A3060 receiver has a stand of its own, which I place on its stand on the back of my viewing chair, shown in the photo attacked to my last post. When positioned on its stand my YPAO mic is within a few inches of where the middle of my head would be were I sitting in my chair. I have been very pleased with the results YPAO has given me for the main speakers but it doesn't help much with sub configuration. REW should help me handle them though.
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post #22335 of 23435 Old 04-21-2017, 08:10 AM
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I have ordered two new subs (Rythmik FV18s) to replace my 9 years old Hsu VTF-3 MK3 Turbo. I plan to place one each on the outside of a front speaker. The attached photo shows the relevant area. One will be placed in the same general area where the Hsu is shown and the other will go on the other side where the brass pot shown in the pic now stands. Each of the new subs will be a few inches more that 7 feet from the MLP.

I would appreciate it if someone could suggest where I should place my UMIK-1 and laptop respectively when I'm running sweeps to give me ideas how to configure the new subs. When I have run REW before, I have put the mic on a table immediately to the right of the MLP and sat at the MLP holding the laptop while it generated test tones. Any help would be appreciated.
First of all, if you don't have one, you should get a longer USB cable for the mic to allow for more flexibility. You can use up to a 15' passive USB cable. And, of course, you need a long enough HDMI cable to reach the AVR from wherever you place the laptop during measurements. As Galonzo recommends, you really can't be serious about using REW without having a boom stand for proper mic placement. The mic must be carefully placed at ear height in the MLP for typical REW measurements. If you use room correction, the first measurement position must also be at ear height in the MLP.

I would position the laptop off to one side of the room during measurements, being careful that you are not standing between the mic and an unobstructed path to all speakers. And as for the placement of your new subs, what you propose is probably a good starting point, but if there is any placement flexibility you should experiment, using REW measurements to help you make the best choice.
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post #22336 of 23435 Old 04-21-2017, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post
Thanks for your advice. I just learned this morning how to use AirPlay to connect my Macbook Pro running REW to my audio system via an Apple TV connected to my HT setup so that the REW test tones now come from the audio system's speakers. This means that it won't matter where the computer is when I run scans, so I can move out of the way. I'm looking forward to trying this out, it represents a real breakthrough for me.
??? Using this setup, how do you select which channel to output the test tone? For example, when using a HDMI connection, you would select HDMI3 to send a test tone to the center channel. How do you do this using Airplay? To be honest, I have never heard of anyone using Airplay for REW measurements, and am not convinced that you will get valid measurements. Why not use a more conventional HDMI connection?
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post #22337 of 23435 Old 04-21-2017, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
First of all, if you don't have one, you should get a longer USB cable for the mic to allow for more flexibility. You can use up to a 15' passive USB cable. And, of course, you need a long enough HDMI cable to reach the AVR from wherever you place the laptop during measurements. As Galonzo recommends, you really can't be serious about using REW without having a boom stand for proper mic placement. The mic must be carefully placed at ear height in the MLP for typical REW measurements. If you use room correction, the first measurement position must also be at ear height in the MLP.

I would position the laptop off to one side of the room during measurements, being careful that you are not standing between the mic and an unobstructed path to all speakers. And as for the placement of your new subs, what you propose is probably a good starting point, but if there is any placement flexibility you should experiment, using REW measurements to help you make the best choice.
@AustinJerry As always, your advice is much appreciated. When you posted you hadn't seen my last post in which I reported than I figured out a way to wirelessly connect my MBP running REW to my audio system via AirPlay. This means that I can put my computer anywhere when I am running sweeps. That's going to be a big help and I am looking forward to trying it out.

I'm really glad that I held my nose and decided to undertake learning about REW's intricacies. This thread, as you had told me it would be, has been an invaluable resource.

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post #22338 of 23435 Old 04-21-2017, 08:22 AM
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??? Using this setup, how do you select which channel to output the test tone? For example, when using a HDMI connection, you would select HDMI3 to send a test tone to the center channel. How do you do this using Airplay? To be honest, I have never heard of anyone using Airplay for REW measurements, and am not convinced that you will get valid measurements. Why not use a more conventional HDMI connection?
I connect the MBP and its REW app to my to my Apple TV via AirPlay. This way, whatever sounds REW generates and the Apple TV receives are reproduced by my audio system. I did some research earlier and had read somewhere that this would work but didn't confirm that it actually does work until today.

HT setup: Sony 75XBR X940D UHD HDR TV; Kaleidescape Strato Movie Server 6 TB; Yamaha RX-A3060 AV receiver; Sonamp 2-1 2channel 100W power amp; Crestron Control System; 2 Rythmik FV18 subwoofers, 6 Hsu HB-1 Bookshelf speakers, 1 Hsu HC-1 Center speaker, 4 Focal ICW8 in-ceiling Atmos speakers; Oppo UDP-203 4K HDR BD player; Mac Mini HTPC. TiVO Bolt 1TB DVR; TiVo Premiere Elite 2 TB DVR; Roku Premiere+
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post #22339 of 23435 Old 04-21-2017, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post
I connect the MBP and its REW app to my to my Apple TV via AirPlay. This way, whatever sounds REW generates and the Apple TV receives are reproduced by my audio system. I did some research earlier and had read somewhere that this would work but didn't confirm that it actually does work until today.
You didn't answer my question--how do you select which speaker to sent the test tones to?
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post
I connect the MBP and its REW app to my to my Apple TV via AirPlay. This way, whatever sounds REW generates and the Apple TV receives are reproduced by my audio system. I did some research earlier and had read somewhere that this would work but didn't confirm that it actually does work until today.
Assuming you do decide to pickup a mic stand, make sure it is not touching anything but the floor it's standing on. I made the mistake for a while of having it up against the couch. After posting a picture of my measuring setup here, someone pointed out that it shouldn't be touching anything (which I should have realized through common sense), and my subsequent measurements were different and inherently better without EQ or PEQ. This allowed me to apply less PEQ to get to the same response.
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post #22341 of 23435 Old 04-21-2017, 09:34 AM
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You didn't answer my question--how do you select which speaker to sent the test tones to?
I will select which speaker or speakers get the test tones through my Yamaha 3060, which gives me control over which speakers do what. Anyway, I am really only interested in using REW to configure my new subs because YPAO has done a more than satisfactory job of configuring the other speakers. It ain't broke so I don't plan on fixing it. All indications are that the AirPlay/Apple TV solution is just what I need and, fortunately, the only one I have to satisfy is me.

HT setup: Sony 75XBR X940D UHD HDR TV; Kaleidescape Strato Movie Server 6 TB; Yamaha RX-A3060 AV receiver; Sonamp 2-1 2channel 100W power amp; Crestron Control System; 2 Rythmik FV18 subwoofers, 6 Hsu HB-1 Bookshelf speakers, 1 Hsu HC-1 Center speaker, 4 Focal ICW8 in-ceiling Atmos speakers; Oppo UDP-203 4K HDR BD player; Mac Mini HTPC. TiVO Bolt 1TB DVR; TiVo Premiere Elite 2 TB DVR; Roku Premiere+
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post #22342 of 23435 Old 04-21-2017, 09:39 AM
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@gwsat
if you don't have a boom stand yet, a great alternative (for frequency response only)


is the moving mic method where you can hold the mic in your hand and do a moving measurement.


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...-1kKjOy18feNpQ

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post #22343 of 23435 Old 04-21-2017, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post
I will select which speaker or speakers get the test tones through my Yamaha 3060, which gives me control over which speakers do what. Anyway, I am really only interested in using REW to configure my new subs because YPAO has done a more than satisfactory job of configuring the other speakers. It ain't broke so I don't plan on fixing it. All indications are that the AirPlay/Apple TV solution is just what I need and, fortunately, the only one I have to satisfy is me.
Just as an FYI - in order to do sub integration measurements (i.e. How well do the subs crossover with the mains etc) you'll still need to be able to tell REW to run sweeps on specific channels. Each Channel represents a speaker or combination of Speakers. For example Channel 3 is LFE+Center and Ch4 is LFE only (just sub will play). You'll likely use Ch1,2,3 and Ch4 at least. Ch1,2,3 will allow you to see how the Sub is integrating with the Front Left, Center, and Front Right at the crossover point. Ch4 will allow you to see how the LFE response looks on its own.

REW needs to be able to tell your receiver which channel(s) should output (through a selection you'll make). It is able to do this because the output device, when connecting an HDMI cable from Mac directly to the receiver, is the Mac itself.

If you have your Mac AirPlay to an AppleTV, your AppleTV effectively becomes the output device. The moment of truth will be whether or not REW picks up the available channels somehow through the Wireless Airplay connection and then through the AppleTV's HDMI connection.

I've never tried to use this process, but even if REW can find the separate channels through those 2 hops, my initial thought is that the delay incurred from the Wifi connection lag (even if tiny) may cause an issue with your measurements. You would definitely want to use a timing reference, and maybe that will help? That's still a pretty big maybe.

I'm actually curious to see how it goes. If it works, this would simplify my own measurements in the future as well.
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post #22344 of 23435 Old 04-21-2017, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by 1201 View Post
@gwsat
if you don't have a boom stand yet, a great alternative (for frequency response only)


is the moving mic method where you can hold the mic in your hand and do a moving measurement.


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...-1kKjOy18feNpQ
Thanks! I'll look into it.

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post #22345 of 23435 Old 04-21-2017, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Just as an FYI - in order to do sub integration measurements (i.e. How well do the subs crossover with the mains etc) you'll still need to be able to tell REW to run sweeps on specific channels. Each Channel represents a speaker or combination of Speakers. For example Channel 3 is LFE+Center and Ch4 is LFE only (just sub will play). You'll likely use Ch1,2,3 and Ch4 at least. Ch1,2,3 will allow you to see how the Sub is integrating with the Front Left, Center, and Front Right at the crossover point. Ch4 will allow you to see how the LFE response looks on its own.

REW needs to be able to tell your receiver which channel(s) should output (through a selection you'll make). It is able to do this because the output device, when connecting an HDMI cable from Mac directly to the receiver, is the Mac itself.

If you have your Mac AirPlay to an AppleTV, your AppleTV effectively becomes the output device. The moment of truth will be whether or not REW picks up the available channels somehow through the Wireless Airplay connection and then through the AppleTV's HDMI connection.

I've never tried to use this process, but even if REW can find the separate channels through those 2 hops, my initial thought is that the delay incurred from the Wifi connection lag (even if tiny) may cause an issue with your measurements. You would definitely want to use a timing reference, and maybe that will help? That's still a pretty big maybe.

I'm actually curious to see how it goes. If it works, this would simplify my own measurements in the future as well.
@citsur86 — Thanks for that explanation. Obviously, I have no idea how well I’ll be able to make the AirPlan/Apple TV plan work in conjunction with my Yamaha 3060’s speaker controls and REW but I’ll try to figure it out. Yours is the best explanation I have yet seen of what I should do to configure subs to work with other speakers. Man, I am still so ignorant! Working on it, though.

HT setup: Sony 75XBR X940D UHD HDR TV; Kaleidescape Strato Movie Server 6 TB; Yamaha RX-A3060 AV receiver; Sonamp 2-1 2channel 100W power amp; Crestron Control System; 2 Rythmik FV18 subwoofers, 6 Hsu HB-1 Bookshelf speakers, 1 Hsu HC-1 Center speaker, 4 Focal ICW8 in-ceiling Atmos speakers; Oppo UDP-203 4K HDR BD player; Mac Mini HTPC. TiVO Bolt 1TB DVR; TiVo Premiere Elite 2 TB DVR; Roku Premiere+
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post
@citsur86 — Thanks for that explanation. Obviously, I have no idea how well I’ll be able to make the AirPlan/Apple TV plan work in conjunction with my Yamaha 3060’s speaker controls and REW but I’ll try to figure it out. Yours is the best explanation I have yet seen of what I should do to configure subs to work with other speakers. Man, I am still so ignorant! Working on it, though.
Don't worry! We were all ignorant of how this process works at one point. I am by no means a pro, but I have the Frequency Response measurements down to a pretty good process. I decided, out of curiosity, that I am going to give this a shot tonight. Since I usually use my Windows 10 PC to take measurements, I am going to bust out the MacBook Pro tonight and install/configure REW from the ground up on there and see if I can't get it working through the Apple TV and AirPlay. I'll keep you posted. @AustinJerry - maybe this will lead us to a new section/setup option in the guide I did confirm that AirPlay does send Lossless Compression so assuming the channels are able to be discovered, it should work.
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Don't worry! We were all ignorant of how this process works at one point. I am by no means a pro, but I have the Frequency Response measurements down to a pretty good process. I decided, out of curiosity, that I am going to give this a shot tonight. Since I usually use my Windows 10 PC to take measurements, I am going to bust out the MacBook Pro tonight and install/configure REW from the ground up on there and see if I can't get it working through the Apple TV and AirPlay. I'll keep you posted. @AustinJerry - maybe this will lead us to a new section/setup option in the guide I did confirm that AirPlay does send Lossless Compression so assuming the channels are able to be discovered, it should work.
That's exciting. The only reason I came across the thread about using AirPlay to connect REW running on an MBP was that Google turned it up when I was searching for how to connect REW to my speakers. Then I tried it and it worked. Because of our discussion here I dug out the thread that gave me the tip. The thread is in one of the homtheatershack.com forums. The next thing I must do, I think is to figure out how to use my Yamaha 3060 receiver's controls to select which non sub speakers are swept in conjunction with the subs. There are miles to go before I sleep, I fear.

HT setup: Sony 75XBR X940D UHD HDR TV; Kaleidescape Strato Movie Server 6 TB; Yamaha RX-A3060 AV receiver; Sonamp 2-1 2channel 100W power amp; Crestron Control System; 2 Rythmik FV18 subwoofers, 6 Hsu HB-1 Bookshelf speakers, 1 Hsu HC-1 Center speaker, 4 Focal ICW8 in-ceiling Atmos speakers; Oppo UDP-203 4K HDR BD player; Mac Mini HTPC. TiVO Bolt 1TB DVR; TiVo Premiere Elite 2 TB DVR; Roku Premiere+
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post #22348 of 23435 Old 04-21-2017, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post
That's exciting. The only reason I came across the thread about using AirPlay to connect REW running on an MBP was that Google turned it up when I was searching for how to connect REW to my speakers. Then I tried it and it worked. Because of our discussion here I dug out the thread that gave me the tip. The thread is in one of the homtheatershack.com forums. The next thing I must do, I think is to figure out how to use my Yamaha 3060 receiver's controls to select which non sub speakers are swept in conjunction with the subs. There are miles to go before I sleep, I fear.
My going in position will be to NOT let the receiver make the decisions as far as what speakers get activated. That is something REW should control through Channel selection. This is the part that may or may not work. The receiver should Ideally be in auto mode and just pass through whatever input signal it gets, out to the speakers. On my Pioneer VSX-44 this would be the Auto Surround mode.
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not that big a deal.


Occams razor- the simplest solution is probably best.


if the whole airplay doesn't work, hook up the mic to the laptop, set a 10 second delay, place the laptop somewhere out of the main line of sight of the speakers, and youre in business.
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
My going in position will be to NOT let the receiver make the decisions as far as what speakers get activated. That is something REW should control through Channel selection. This is the part that may or may not work. The receiver should Ideally be in auto mode and just pass through whatever input signal it gets, out to the speakers. On my Pioneer VSX-44 this would be the Auto Surround mode.
Does REW do the channel selection or must I do it somehow? I have no understanding whatever of how that works.

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