Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 763 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #22861 of 23064 Old 05-21-2017, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
So a mode is where nulls intersect?
And, so as not to disappoint you:

Michael


No I believe @AustinJerry explained that a null is simply the valley of a sine wave.
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post #22862 of 23064 Old 05-21-2017, 04:21 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
You can offer this as an alternative:
50" Driver - SMSG50
Michael


Hahaha yeah that won't even fit in my house!

🤣🤣
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post #22863 of 23064 Old 05-21-2017, 04:33 AM
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So, putting it together (thanks to Google and GIKacoustics.com):
"Room modes are caused by sound reflecting off of various room surfaces. Room modes can cause both peaks and nulls (dips) in frequency response. When two or more waves meet and are in phase with each other at a specific frequency, you will have a peak in response. When they meet and are out of phase with each other, they cancel and you end up with a dip or null in response."
I'm good now.
See, Jerry:
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post #22864 of 23064 Old 05-21-2017, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
No I believe @AustinJerry explained that a null is simply the valley of a sine wave.
No. Here's a brief introduction to modes and sound fields in acoustically small rooms: https://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/
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post #22865 of 23064 Old 05-21-2017, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
No. Here's a brief introduction to modes and sound fields in acoustically small rooms: https://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/
Obviously a much better explanation. This should be required reading for anyone looking for assistance with sub tuning in this thread.
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post #22866 of 23064 Old 05-21-2017, 07:04 AM
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Flipped the bottom sub over. Going to do some more sweeps this morning. Mic windshield off this time too.





After watching some more content last night. I felt that there was some boominess to the sound. I turned PEQ off and it went away 🤷*♂️

I still believe stacked is best config for me based on response graphs.

Quick question: does it make a difference if I plug right port on top sub and left on bottom or vice-versa?
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post #22867 of 23064 Old 05-21-2017, 07:57 AM
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So after flipping over the bottom sub and taking measurements without the mic's windshield, I decided I also wanted to add some more rise to the low end LFE. Here are my newest measurements as of this morning:


Subwoofer 80Hz Xover with PEQ:


Subwoofer 200Hz Xover with PEQ:


Full system response after PEQ and EQ:


Here is the before and after PEQ to the subs:


Here are the PEQ filters I am using, generated by REQ EQ tool:


And now to setup the Tactile Transducers and Amp in the subflooring with this guy powering them!


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post #22868 of 23064 Old 05-21-2017, 08:00 AM
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Hey, it's a beautiful day. Go outside for a few minutes.

Michael

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post #22869 of 23064 Old 05-21-2017, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Hey, it's a beautiful day. Go outside for a few minutes.

Michael


Haha did some yard work earlier. Taking my son to the park later. Wife is at church with him now (I'm Jewish, she's Christian), so using the "alone time" to play with my toys.
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post #22870 of 23064 Old 05-21-2017, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Subwoofer 80Hz Xover with PEQ:
I wonder what's causing that sharp dip at around 115Hz. I don't think it's audible because it's so narrow?
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post #22871 of 23064 Old 05-21-2017, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
So after flipping over the bottom sub and taking measurements without the mic's windshield, I decided I also wanted to add some more rise to the low end LFE. Here are my newest measurements as of this morning:


Subwoofer 80Hz Xover with PEQ:


Subwoofer 200Hz Xover with PEQ:


Full system response after PEQ and EQ:


Here is the before and after PEQ to the subs:


Here are the PEQ filters I am using, generated by REQ EQ tool:


And now to setup the Tactile Transducers and Amp in the subflooring with this guy powering them!


I've found that too much cut EQ can lower the signal to noise ratio and negatively affect SQ. So, I set the target level about halfway between the biggest peaks and dips. The REW set target level usually does a good job of this assuming you measure the full bandwidth of the sub, which is 15-200Hz or 15-300Hz for me. In your case measuring down to 10Hz is better.

I think REW calculates the area above and below the target line to match... just a guess though.

Anyhow, I find too much cut EQ makes the bass texture too soft/blurry whereas a normal target level results in a more natural, punchy, detailed bass. I realize my terminology is not scientific but in a nutshell, cutting more than 5-10dB average across the target EQ range isn't ideal even if the FR looks ideal. Cutting 15-20dB for wide peaks is overkill IMO.
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post #22872 of 23064 Old 05-21-2017, 01:16 PM
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Lol, I just looked at your post on my phone and zoomed in on the graphs. It appears you're not cutting much more than 10dB for the most part so disregard what I said.
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post #22873 of 23064 Old 05-21-2017, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
So after flipping over the bottom sub and taking measurements without the mic's windshield, I decided I also wanted to add some more rise to the low end LFE. Here are my newest measurements as of this morning:


Subwoofer 80Hz Xover with PEQ:


Subwoofer 200Hz Xover with PEQ:


Full system response after PEQ and EQ:


Here is the before and after PEQ to the subs:


Here are the PEQ filters I am using, generated by REQ EQ tool:


And now to setup the Tactile Transducers and Amp in the subflooring with this guy powering them!


Lookin good !


Ohh, that 2x4 hd has 10 filters.........

My bottom line 2x4 only has 6......


I see that amp came in...........

Link to budget Home Theater build

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...i-version.html
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post #22874 of 23064 Old 05-21-2017, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Lol, I just looked at your post on my phone and zoomed in on the graphs. It appears you're not cutting much more than 10dB for the most part so disregard what I said.


Actually both yesterday and today I've noticed what I'm calling some boominess at times and it sort of matches up to what you wrote. I'm missing the articulate punchiness and couldn't figure out why, given that the FR looks good. I clear PEQ on the 2x4 HD and get my punchiness. I thought it was just that 20-40hz plateau but what you said makes sense. I have lowered the REW target by 10 db both times in order to get a more consistent curve line. It was based on another members advice yesterday to raise the gain on the sub and then us PEQ to trim to the low parts. I'm gonna try again using REWs target line but with a bit more added boost.
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post #22875 of 23064 Old 05-21-2017, 01:49 PM
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Personally, these days I just let REW set target level and avoid boost filters altogether. In my case, when I use boost on dips the dip disappears according to measures but it sounds like adding modal peaks (boominess/resonance) and irritates my ears. In turns out, I already have annoying resonances just under 50Hz and 90Hz and boost filters in those areas or between them don't help. Also, I get plus or minus 5dB without boost. So, no need to boost.
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post #22876 of 23064 Old 05-22-2017, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
For that matter, can you give a definition of both.
A null is simply a cancellation, which can be due to the direct sound from a speaker being out of phase with its reflection from a nearby boundary OR a subwoofer and speaker being out of phase at the crossover frequency OR a room resonance that has certain locations in the room where the sound waves bouncing back and forth are meeting out of phase. In all cases, we're talking about a cancellation that is phase-based (as opposed to something level-based, like a dip that is deliberately designed into a speaker's frequency response, which might look like a mild cancellation in measurements but is not).

Room modes are also called room resonances. Like when you blow across an empty Coke bottle and get the air inside to resonate (make that booooohhhh sound). Enlarge that chamber to the size of your room and you can still get the air to resonate (of course at different frequencies than the empty bottle). As sound waves bounce around your room, they'll be meeting each other in phase, combining constructively to create peaks as well as meeting each other out of phase, combing destructively to create nulls.

Since different frequencies have different wavelengths, their sound waves bouncing between opposite boundaries will create peaks & nulls at various locations. And those locations will change with each bounce EXCEPT at frequencies whose wavelenghts happens to match or are multiples of a room dimension. Since those waves complete a cycle with each bounce, they always line up with themselves with each return trip. Which means the locations of their peaks & nulls don't change and can be predicted with a room mode calculator. Because those resonances appear to be standing still, they're sometimes referred to as standing waves.

That's one of the things that separate room modes (aka room resonances, aka standing waves) from other frequencies: their peaks & nulls remain in the same predictable locations instead of changing locations with each bounce (like non-modal frequencies do). And because their wavelengths match room dimensions, they continue to bounce back and forth (resonate) long after other frequencies have lost energy and naturally decayed.

Sanjay
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post #22877 of 23064 Old 05-22-2017, 07:02 AM
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So after some more listening last night, I definitely realize I need to expose more of the story than the Frequency response graph alone is providing.

I think the combination of so much PEQ filters boosting and trimming is causing some boominess due to the modal peaks @PlasmaPZ80U referenced. Tonight, I am going to try these 3 ways. No Boost, with 3 and 5db match to automated target line, and a 3db match to -5db from automated target line.





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post #22878 of 23064 Old 05-22-2017, 07:35 AM
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You need to get your midbass up. Might need to play with your crossover again.
Michael

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post #22879 of 23064 Old 05-22-2017, 07:49 AM
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New Beta download available:

V5.19 beta 5 21st May 2017

•Added Outlaw Audio Model 976 equaliser setting
•Added a stepped sine distortion measurement capability to the RTA
•Added configurable distortion high pass and low pass filters to the RTA controls to exclude content outside the chosen frequency span
•Highest distortion harmonic for sweep measurements changed to 9th, same as RTA
•Added a control for the highest harmonic that will be used when calculating THD
•Added buttons in the All SPL controls to make minimum phase and excess phase versions of a measurement
•Added a button in the All SPL controls to make a copy of a measurement's response
•Added buttons in the All SPL controls to time align or vector average all currently selected measurements
•Added estimated start time of impulse response to the Info panel
•When using acoustic timing reference take the delay figure from the start of the response instead of the peak if the peak is more than 1 ms later
•Added a view preference to use thicker traces for averages in overlay graphs (on by default)
•RTA uses the sig gen frequency as the fundamental if it is playing a sine wave when distortion analysis has been selected
•Added an entry in the Info panel to track the cumulative time offsets made to the IR since it was measured
•Added another spectrogram colour scheme, 'Heat'
•Limit the trace colour selections in the View preferences to 30
•Added more frequency resolution steps for the wavelet spectrogram
•Added workaround for GodMode crash in JVM on Windows (useSystemExtensionHiding set to false)
•Changed to Nimbus Look and Feel on Windows to work around JVM crash with Windows 10 Creators update when using system look and feel
•Changed to Nimbus Look and Feel on Linux
•Trace arithmetic on measurements which do not both have compatible impulse responses are carried out using whatever smoothing is already applied to the measurements

•Bug fix: RT60 data panel showed results outside the range of the measurement
•Bug fix: On loading a measurement an octave band filter could be left applied
•Bug fix: Trace arithmetic division on measurements without impulse responses could fail
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post #22880 of 23064 Old 05-22-2017, 08:12 AM
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Attachment 2150298I don't use the REW EQ Tool for my setup, so I don't have much experience configuring it. In the screenshot below, the tool pulls down and smooths the curve above 60Hz, but does nothing to the curve below 60Hz. Is this expected behavior, or do I need to adjust the input parameters to pull up the dip at 42Hz?
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post #22881 of 23064 Old 05-22-2017, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Attachment 2150298I don't use the REW EQ Tool for my setup, so I don't have much experience configuring it. In the screenshot below, the tool pulls down and smooths the curve above 60Hz, but does nothing to the curve below 60Hz. Is this expected behavior, or do I need to adjust the input parameters to pull up the dip at 42Hz?
To pull that dip up, you'll need to raise the individual max boost because that dip is about 10db from target line, and you've only allowed a 5db boost. If you want it to try to match the line, try that first. Although, as you know a +10db boost at 42hz will use quite a bit of power. If you have the headroom, no prob.
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post #22882 of 23064 Old 05-22-2017, 08:23 AM
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You can also play with the target settings to get a curve that better fits the FR before EQ. Stuff like the cutoff and lf cutoff and LR rise. Then when you hit the set target level button it should better split the difference between peaks and dips throughout the target range for EQ.
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post #22883 of 23064 Old 05-22-2017, 08:40 AM
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And you won't add the filters to your subs >100Hz until you see how it measures with your main(s).
Michael

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post #22884 of 23064 Old 05-22-2017, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
To pull that dip up, you'll need to raise the individual max boost because that dip is about 10db from target line, and you've only allowed a 5db boost. If you want it to try to match the line, try that first. Although, as you know a +10db boost at 42hz will use quite a bit of power. If you have the headroom, no prob.
I am unlikely to apply that much boost. I am mainly just curious as to how the REW Tool works. I bumped individual max and overall max to 12dB, which is the limit, and still no effect below 60Hz whatsoever.
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post #22885 of 23064 Old 05-22-2017, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I am unlikely to apply that much boost. I am mainly just curious as to how the REW Tool works. I bumped individual max and overall max to 12dB, which is the limit, and still no effect below 60Hz whatsoever.
My guess is REW is won't do it, because it shouldn't be done (hence the 12db limit). Then again, REW doesn't know that you aren't using a 20,000W 55" subwoofer, so

It might just simply be that even with individual and max boost set to max, it doesn't provide enough leeway to pull that dip up. @PlasmaPZ80U is who taught me how to use the EQ Tool, so I will defer to him if he has more to add.
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post #22886 of 23064 Old 05-22-2017, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
My guess is REW is won't do it, because it shouldn't be done (hence the 12db limit). Then again, REW doesn't know that you aren't using a 20,000W 55" subwoofer, so

It might just simply be that even with individual and max boost set to max, it doesn't provide enough leeway to pull that dip up. @PlasmaPZ80U is who taught me how to use the EQ Tool, so I will defer to him if he has more to add.
What we are seeing is one reason why I have never used the EQ tool--I just don't seem to understand how it works, and it has never provided any response correction that was not achieved with room correction (Dirac Live), which IMO is the preferred way to accomplish the objective. Thanks for your feedback.
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post #22887 of 23064 Old 05-22-2017, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I am unlikely to apply that much boost. I am mainly just curious as to how the REW Tool works. I bumped individual max and overall max to 12dB, which is the limit, and still no effect below 60Hz whatsoever.
My guess is REW is won't do it, because it shouldn't be done (hence the 12db limit). Then again, REW doesn't know that you aren't using a 20,000W 55" subwoofer, so

It might just simply be that even with individual and max boost set to max, it doesn't provide enough leeway to pull that dip up. @PlasmaPZ80U is who taught me how to use the EQ Tool, so I will defer to him if he has more to add.
I personally set LF cutoff to 0 and LF rise to 0 and cutoff to 120Hz and 24dB per octave. I then set target level automatically or halfway between biggest peaks and dips if REW doesn't set it right automatically.

I do this with the LFE channel measure in REW since my AVR has a fixed 120Hz LPF for LFE.

Of course, one can add a house curve on top of this using LF rise or house curve text file.

I set boost to 0dB for both individual and overall filters.
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post #22888 of 23064 Old 05-22-2017, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I personally set LF cutoff to 0 and LF rise to 0 and cutoff to 120Hz and 24dB per octave. I then set target level automatically or halfway between biggest peaks and dips if REW doesn't set it right automatically.

I do this with the LFE channel measure in REW since my AVR has a fixed 120Hz LPF for LFE.

Of course, one can add a house curve on top of this using LF rise or house curve text file.

I set boost to 0dB for both individual and overall filters.
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post #22889 of 23064 Old 05-22-2017, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Attachment 2150298I don't use the REW EQ Tool for my setup, so I don't have much experience configuring it. In the screenshot below, the tool pulls down and smooths the curve above 60Hz, but does nothing to the curve below 60Hz. Is this expected behavior, or do I need to adjust the input parameters to pull up the dip at 42Hz?
That is because the whole measurement below about 55 Hz lies below your target. REW won't try and do anything below the lowest frequency at which your measurement crosses the target, to avoid trying to boost a response below the low frequency limit of the speaker (or sub). Lower the target level to have REW tackle that region.
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post #22890 of 23064 Old 05-22-2017, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I personally set LF cutoff to 0 and LF rise to 0 and cutoff to 120Hz and 24dB per octave. I then set target level automatically or halfway between biggest peaks and dips if REW doesn't set it right automatically.

I do this with the LFE channel measure in REW since my AVR has a fixed 120Hz LPF for LFE.

Of course, one can add a house curve on top of this using LF rise or house curve text file.

I set boost to 0dB for both individual and overall filters.
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Yeah, the target line appears to be good. Why is predicted response well below it? Did you load a previous set of filters?
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