Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 766 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #22951 of 23335 Old 05-31-2017, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
in windows you can right click and disable the built in speaker output... try that (it should insure no sounds come from laptop speakers)


Ok, will try that too tonight. Thanks


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post #22952 of 23335 Old 05-31-2017, 05:57 AM
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^I didn't plug in the AVR for that so it should also show AVR as default when I do

Current Setup REW FR measures

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings

Samsung UN46EH6030; Yamaha HTR-3066, SVS Prime Bookshelf Mains and Prime Center, Sony SS-CS5 Surrounds, Cambridge S20 Rear Surrounds, Rythmik LV12R; PS4 Slim, Xbox One, Xfinity X1
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post #22953 of 23335 Old 05-31-2017, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The massive dip is 110Hz, obviously. If the crossover is 80Hz, then the dip is above the sub's range.

To see how things are really looking, you should post subs+center so that we can see the combined response. This will reveal whether the 110Hz dip is really an issue.
Hello Austin,
the sub+center measurements probably will come this week-end. And I will do it for the 2 places possible. Could you please remind me if this measurement must be done with EQ filters for the sub channel on or EQ off (of course xo80 on) ?
Like I said earlier, I found that I might have a choice between 2 locations for my one sub. I made all my room treatment with the sub with the red line in my graphs (huge massive dip at 110hz approx) and discovered that maybe the response should be a little bit better at the second place because the dip disappears. More to come soon.

My system 5.1 :ROTEL RSX-1562 /Fronts: B & W 804 D2; surround : B&W 704 and center B&W HTM4d2 /sub SVS PC 2000 / TV Samsung UN55ES8000
/BD player Cambridge CXU/ set-top (cable box) rented from cable co. PEQ by nanoAvr-DL Dirac Live between CXU and receiver
Bis Audio cables and power bar from the wall to the receiver
My room:15'4" x 11' 6" x 7'6" tv near the center of the long side wall
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post #22954 of 23335 Old 05-31-2017, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Which response is better for equalization? Look at the excess phase group delay.
(...)
Hi Markus,
the mdat file that I posted shows that I measured with an acoustic timing reference (one mic position only, front left channel for reference). Is this enough to tell something usefull about excess phase group delay?

My system 5.1 :ROTEL RSX-1562 /Fronts: B & W 804 D2; surround : B&W 704 and center B&W HTM4d2 /sub SVS PC 2000 / TV Samsung UN55ES8000
/BD player Cambridge CXU/ set-top (cable box) rented from cable co. PEQ by nanoAvr-DL Dirac Live between CXU and receiver
Bis Audio cables and power bar from the wall to the receiver
My room:15'4" x 11' 6" x 7'6" tv near the center of the long side wall
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post #22955 of 23335 Old 05-31-2017, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by FargateOne View Post
Hello Austin,
the sub+center measurements probably will come this week-end. And I will do it for the 2 places possible. Could you please remind me if this measurement must be done with EQ filters for the sub channel on or EQ off (of course xo80 on) ?
Like I said earlier, I found that I might have a choice between 2 locations for my one sub. I made all my room treatment with the sub with the red line in my graphs (huge massive dip at 110hz approx) and discovered that maybe the response should be a little bit better at the second place because the dip disappears. More to come soon.
Ultimately, you want to measure how the combined subs+center sounds as it is when you are listening, so I would measure with sub EQ on, and room EQ on as well.
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post #22956 of 23335 Old 05-31-2017, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by FargateOne View Post
Hi Markus,
the mdat file that I posted shows that I measured with an acoustic timing reference (one mic position only, front left channel for reference). Is this enough to tell something usefull about excess phase group delay?
You would need to look at the unequalized responses at multiple locations within the listening area. The one point measurement shows a non-minimum phase area around 38Hz. PEQ should not be applied here. It can't fix non-minimum phase anomalies. Only additional sources or changes in source/listener location can.

By the way, your sub seems to be delayed by a few ms.


Markus

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post #22957 of 23335 Old 05-31-2017, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Money well spent... this is really making me look forward to getting Audyssey XT32 myself.

Seems like it also gave you peace of mind not having to do everything manually and worrying about gain structure, time alignment, etc.
A bit delayed seeing this response from you, but I can tell you that of all the things I've tried (and you know its been a lot and a long deep rabbit hole for me), Audyssey just.....worked. I was shocked how good the results were after being let down so many times by trying so many different things. And it's not just pretty on paper (screen), it sounds wonderful. I look forward to viewing content for the audio now. From subs to high frequencies, I didn't realize how hard the top end used to be and how boomy the low end really was until now. And you're right, worrying about gain structure, time alignment etc has all gone out the window mostly. I still need to monitor the iNuke Amp since it seems to be getting much more power now. Those iNuke amp's knobs set to 9 oclock even can cause clipping with the Marantz Subs boosted to -2.5/-3.5 - So I had to be more careful there. Other than that, its just happy viewing and all smiles now. Most recently watched American Gods latest episode (which had some great bass moments) and Cloverfield
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post #22958 of 23335 Old 05-31-2017, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Money well spent... this is really making me look forward to getting Audyssey XT32 myself.

Seems like it also gave you peace of mind not having to do everything manually and worrying about gain structure, time alignment, etc.
A bit delayed seeing this response from you, but I can tell you that of all the things I've tried (and you know its been a lot and a long deep rabbit hole for me), Audyssey just.....worked. I was shocked how good the results were after being let down so many times by trying so many different things. And it's not just pretty on paper (screen), it sounds wonderful. I look forward to viewing content for the audio now. From subs to high frequencies, I didn't realize how hard the top end used to be and how boomy the low end really was until now. And you're right, worrying about gain structure, time alignment etc has all gone out the window mostly. I still need to monitor the iNuke Amp since it seems to be getting much more power now. Those iNuke amp's knobs set to 9 oclock even can cause clipping with the Marantz Subs boosted to -2.5/-3.5 - So I had to be more careful there. Other than that, its just happy viewing and all smiles now. Most recently watched American Gods latest episode (which had some great bass moments) and Cloverfield
Yeah, nice that you can just sit back and enjoy your speakers/subs. REW, MiniDSP, etc are very useful tools, but I think automated room correction like Audyssey XT32 and Dirac Live is worth every penny for the simplicity and effectiveness it provides.
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post #22959 of 23335 Old 05-31-2017, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
...I was shocked how good the results were after being let down so many times by trying so many different things. And it's not just pretty on paper (screen), it sounds wonderful. I look forward to viewing content for the audio now. ... Other than that, its just happy viewing and all smiles now. Most recently watched American Gods latest episode (which had some great bass moments) and Cloverfield
That's great news.

I can't watch shaky cam movies but I enjoyed the second Cloverfield movie, 10 Cloverfield Lane. The most intense bass I've heard in a movie is the wormhole scene in Interstellar. Don't blame me if things break when you play it.
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post #22960 of 23335 Old 05-31-2017, 03:49 PM
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That's great news.



I can't watch shaky cam movies but I enjoyed the second Cloverfield movie, 10 Cloverfield Lane. The most intense bass I've heard in a movie is the wormhole scene in Interstellar. Don't blame me if things break when you play it.


Interstellar rocket launch scene has spectacular room filling bass that crescendos into....silence. And man is that a loud silence.
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post #22961 of 23335 Old 05-31-2017, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Looks just like mine. The "Intel Display Audio" is the correct interface, and the screenshot shows the 8 audio connections. Doesn't it work when you select one of the connections?
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Here is what mine looks like on Windows 10. As AustinJerry said, it looks fine. have you tried outputting tones via the generator?

Here is mine:



Perhaps I did not notice this yesterday, but Umik is not showing in windows as a recording device. I swapped USB cables but no luck. The blue light is on but no recognition by windows. Seems like a common problem but not sure what the fix is?
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post #22962 of 23335 Old 05-31-2017, 06:00 PM
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Perhaps I did not notice this yesterday, but Umik is not showing in windows as a recording device. I swapped USB cables but no luck. The blue light is on but no recognition by windows. Seems like a common problem but not sure what the fix is?


Nevermind. It was not pushed far enough on the mic.


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post #22963 of 23335 Old 05-31-2017, 06:08 PM
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Nevermind. It was not pushed far enough on the mic.


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Are you making progress on the original issue? And yes, you need to push the USB connector into the UMIK-1 with some force--it should snap into place. Others have had the same issue.
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post #22964 of 23335 Old 05-31-2017, 06:09 PM
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Yes slowly


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post #22965 of 23335 Old 05-31-2017, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
You would need to look at the unequalized responses at multiple locations within the listening area. The one point measurement shows a non-minimum phase area around 38Hz. PEQ should not be applied here. It can't fix non-minimum phase anomalies. Only additional sources or changes in source/listener location can.

By the way, your sub seems to be delayed by a few ms.
Hello,
I had time to take only one measurement for the sub at each place. See the excess group delay of the second place possible
and the mdat for the 2 places. The real measurements will come this week-end.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bdaej6uku2...ible.mdat?dl=0
Thanks again

My system 5.1 :ROTEL RSX-1562 /Fronts: B & W 804 D2; surround : B&W 704 and center B&W HTM4d2 /sub SVS PC 2000 / TV Samsung UN55ES8000
/BD player Cambridge CXU/ set-top (cable box) rented from cable co. PEQ by nanoAvr-DL Dirac Live between CXU and receiver
Bis Audio cables and power bar from the wall to the receiver
My room:15'4" x 11' 6" x 7'6" tv near the center of the long side wall
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post #22966 of 23335 Old 05-31-2017, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Are you making progress on the original issue? And yes, you need to push the USB connector into the UMIK-1 with some force--it should snap into place. Others have had the same issue.


My first sweep!




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post #22967 of 23335 Old 05-31-2017, 07:48 PM
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My first sweep!




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Did not save it, so this is a pic of the computer screen.


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post #22968 of 23335 Old 05-31-2017, 07:53 PM
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My first sweep!

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See that little camera icon in the upper left corner of the screen? If you click on that, it captures the current measurement screen to a .JPG file on your hard drive. You can then drag the file to your AVS post, and we end up with a screenshot that is actually readable. How to publish REW measurements is a topic covered in the REW guide linked in my sig. Have you reviewed the guide yet?

The measurement is not that good. You have work to do. Of course, since you didn't tell us, we really don't know what you were measuring.
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post #22969 of 23335 Old 05-31-2017, 07:55 PM
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I am going through the guide as we speak. Jumped the gun on this one. I will run it again at the same location and post the results again.


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post #22970 of 23335 Old 05-31-2017, 08:00 PM
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I am going through the guide as we speak. Jumped the gun on this one. I will run it again at the same location and post the results again.


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Assuming you are here to gain some advice, please tell us what you are measuring when you post something. And, of course, for you to get meaningful advice, you should tell us about your setup--AVR brand, number of speakers and subs, what your listening room is like, listening preferences (movies or music), degrees of freedom you have with equipment placement, room treatments, etc. And, of course, what is your objective when taking REW measurements? In other words, your life history...
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post #22971 of 23335 Old 05-31-2017, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by FargateOne View Post
Hello,
I had time to take only one measurement for the sub at each place. See the excess group delay of the second place possible
and the mdat for the 2 places. The real measurements will come this week-end.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bdaej6uku2...ible.mdat?dl=0
Thanks again
"bahu 85cm 35cm" looks promising. Would need to see more measurements from the listening area though.

Markus

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post #22972 of 23335 Old 06-01-2017, 03:27 AM
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I've been through the guide, but I can't see how to check all speakers are wired up corrects and so are in-phase.

For the first time, I've allowed someone else to custom install everything, so want to double check they haven't connected anything backwards but that's hard with eleven full-range speakers which are built into the walls and ceiling!

With stereo its pretty obvious if the L/R are wrong, but if one of the four Atmos speakers are connected up wrong, its going to be hard to tell by ear and whilst there's a lot of 'phase' information in REW and the guide I can't see a method of checking the speaker polarity connections.
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post #22973 of 23335 Old 06-01-2017, 06:12 AM
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I've been through the guide, but I can't see how to check all speakers are wired up corrects and so are in-phase.

For the first time, I've allowed someone else to custom install everything, so want to double check they haven't connected anything backwards but that's hard with eleven full-range speakers which are built into the walls and ceiling!

With stereo its pretty obvious if the L/R are wrong, but if one of the four Atmos speakers are connected up wrong, its going to be hard to tell by ear and whilst there's a lot of 'phase' information in REW and the guide I can't see a method of checking the speaker polarity connections.
On Page 19 of the MiniDSP 2x4 setup guide, there is a picture showing two speakers (subs) with reversed polarity. Basically, you measure each speaker, open the Overlays screen, and select Impulse. The leading edge of each speaker's impulse either rises or falls. All speakers should match, i.e. all should rise, or all should fall. If not, then the speaker that doesn't match has reversed polarity.
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post #22974 of 23335 Old 06-01-2017, 11:43 AM
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Well, after using the boom mic stand to properly do sub EQ in REW and then run YPAO I have to say everything sounds more seamless and effortless. Especially the bass and how the surrounds blend with the mains/CC. The YPAO auto PEQ for the speakers still irritates my ears so I turn it off but it does sound better than before. Anyhow, once I turn it off everything sounds so good I can turn things up a bit without any listening fatigue or discomfort.

I think the reason the boom mic stand works is twofold: it lets me position the mic tip free of any obstacles between mic and speakers by removing pillows, etc. and the mattress by using a blanket and 1ft above the highest part of the mattress.

Second, it isolates the mic from the mattress and holds the mic firmly, with the stand only touching the floor.

I didn't realize that something like this would help with surround localization issues or improve already impressed bass. Now I just need a better AVR so I can get results like Citsur is getting.

Quite happy with this inexpensive and simple to use purchase.
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post #22975 of 23335 Old 06-01-2017, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Well, after using the boom mic stand to properly do sub EQ in REW and then run YPAO I have to say everything sounds more seamless and effortless. Especially the bass and how the surrounds blend with the mains/CC. The YPAO auto PEQ for the speakers still irritates my ears so I turn it off but it does sound better than before. Anyhow, once I turn it off everything sounds so good I can turn things up a bit without any listening fatigue or discomfort.

I remember when I posted a picture of my measuring setup and someone (probably you or Jerry) noticed that I used to have my mic boom stand up against the couch. Once I removed it, I did get better results too. I was surprised that made a difference.


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Now I just need a better AVR so I can get results like Citsur is getting.

Yup! It will be interesting when you do to see how good of a difference it makes.
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post #22976 of 23335 Old 06-01-2017, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Assuming you are here to gain some advice, please tell us what you are measuring when you post something. And, of course, for you to get meaningful advice, you should tell us about your setup--AVR brand, number of speakers and subs, what your listening room is like, listening preferences (movies or music), degrees of freedom you have with equipment placement, room treatments, etc. And, of course, what is your objective when taking REW measurements? In other words, your life history...


Hi, here are some sweeps I did to identity better location of my sub which was located in the rear of the room. This is sub only

AVR - Denon X4300H

Speakers - L/C/R are PSA MTM 210s, surrounds are Klipsch RM 150 for now.

Sub - SVS PC12 NSD. To be replaced by dual 18 inch in a month, so learning REW now to at least figure best sub location

Room: dedicated media room, 2100 cuft with theater style step between first row and second row. Pic attached

Listening pref: 100% HT, and listen fairly loud. After chest crushing bass, hence the subs mentioned above. No option or appetite for room treatments unless extremely cheap and easy

Hope this is helpful and what u need. Think the graphs say that the front right is best place for the sub but need some experts to tell me if I am on right track and what to do next.





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post #22977 of 23335 Old 06-01-2017, 03:39 PM
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Front placement obviously an improvement. Now look at the waterfall, which will reveal how much bass resonance (bad) you have. Based on what the waterfall shows (please post, following the waterfall presentation guidelines), treatments may be warranted.

Edit: Please measure sub+center, sub only (front position), left+sub, and right+sub. Upload your MDAT for us to look at. Use acoustic timing reference!
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post #22978 of 23335 Old 06-01-2017, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Front placement obviously an improvement. Now look at the waterfall, which will reveal how much bass resonance (bad) you have. Based on what the waterfall shows (please post, following the waterfall presentation guidelines), treatments may be warranted.

Edit: Please measure sub+center, sub only (front position), left+sub, and right+sub. Upload your MDAT for us to look at. Use acoustic timing reference!
Here is the waterfall. Will now look to measure what you have stated above.
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post #22979 of 23335 Old 06-01-2017, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Front placement obviously an improvement. Now look at the waterfall, which will reveal how much bass resonance (bad) you have. Based on what the waterfall shows (please post, following the waterfall presentation guidelines), treatments may be warranted.

Edit: Please measure sub+center, sub only (front position), left+sub, and right+sub. Upload your MDAT for us to look at. Use acoustic timing reference!
Here is the link with the measurements

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AsOYtvUjAgbuow7Z2llo8vjggplO
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post #22980 of 23335 Old 06-02-2017, 03:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
On Page 19 of the MiniDSP 2x4 setup guide, there is a picture showing two speakers (subs) with reversed polarity. Basically, you measure each speaker, open the Overlays screen, and select Impulse. The leading edge of each speaker's impulse either rises or falls. All speakers should match, i.e. all should rise, or all should fall. If not, then the speaker that doesn't match has reversed polarity.
Ah, I didn't notice that in MiniDSP guide as I'd skipped the subs bit. I had a quick look last night but didn't get to do much as I wasted a lot of time being confused about only being able to choose L/R on the output which turned out to be a very rookie mistake (the AV Matrix was set to force 2.0 EDID).

I couldn't figure out why the timing reference started appearing as a 'click' instead of the high pitched noise (no matter which speaker I put it through) which REW then couldn't find. I'll try on my other system tonight, but I may have set something up wrong somewhere - its not the speakers as the sweep goes through fine, so I guess I've managed to accidentally set something in REW which has broken it.

The plots I got were easy to see polarity on subs, but on other full-range speakers was very tough so I guess I need to remeasure with a limited range.

Also, on the HDMI output I got the option of the 7.1 speakers but not for any of the Atmos ones. I couldn't find anything about Atmos in the guide - can REW send signals to the full 7.4.1 Atmos speakers?

TBH, I got fed up after so much time messing about and with my own stupidity and ended up putting on Fury Road to see how it sounded on the opening scene and 2 hours later the credits rolled
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