Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - Page 86 - AVS Forum
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post #2551 of 11877 Old 04-13-2013, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by mp5475 View Post

i tried put a sub front left but it worsened the 37 dip and created a nasty dip at 70

tried to place sub along the entire front wall but anything to the left was really bad.
Is there enough space between the second row and back wall to slide a couple of subs behind those seats?

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post #2552 of 11877 Old 04-13-2013, 07:44 PM
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Decay for the sub

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post #2553 of 11877 Old 04-13-2013, 07:47 PM
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Is there enough space between the second row and back wall to slide a couple of subs behind those seats?

unfortunately the seats are against the wall. I tried placing a sub between the two rows even though not practical. its was not very good. almost got a hernia lifting those damn subs
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post #2554 of 11877 Old 04-13-2013, 07:57 PM
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room mode calc

if I use 15 as width I get null at 38hz. interesting. I did try putting a sub near the center of seats. but probably wasn't exactly center. its not really practical either.

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post #2555 of 11877 Old 04-13-2013, 08:40 PM
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Even though the front of your room is 20'6" wide, the sound apparently sees a 15' width (I guess based on where you placed the measuring mic).

Putting a single sub at the half way point of room width would knock out the first width mode at 37.6 Hz. Putting a pair of subs at the quarter points of room width would keep the first AND second width mode (75.3 Hz) from resonating. BTW, those width mode problems should go away across all seats.

If you can't do that sort of subwoofer placement where the room is 15' wide, then you'll have to try the front wall. Placing them there then begs the question: for the sake of acoustics, what is the "room width"?

I suppose you could try an experiment using a single subwoofer. Place it in the middle of the front (20'6") wall and measure. Without moving the mic, move the sub slightly so that it lines up with the middle of the (15') back wall and re-measure.

BTW, why are you lifting up the subs and carrying them around instead of simply sliding them? If they've got spikes on the bottom, then take them off temporarily while you're experimenting with placement. I mean, we're all dedicated to this hobby, but better frequency response is not worth a hernia operation.

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post #2556 of 11877 Old 04-13-2013, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Even though the front of your room is 20'6" wide, the sound apparently sees a 15' width (I guess based on where you placed the measuring mic).

Putting a single sub at the half way point of room width would knock out the first width mode at 37.6 Hz. Putting a pair of subs at the quarter points of room width would keep the first AND second width mode (75.3 Hz) from resonating. BTW, those width mode problems should go away across all seats.

If you can't do that sort of subwoofer placement where the room is 15' wide, then you'll have to try the front wall. Placing them there then begs the question: for the sake of acoustics, what is the "room width"?

I suppose you could try an experiment using a single subwoofer. Place it in the middle of the front (20'6") wall and measure. Without moving the mic, move the sub slightly so that it lines up with the middle of the (15') back wall and re-measure.

BTW, why are you lifting up the subs and carrying them around instead of simply sliding them? If they've got spikes on the bottom, then take them off temporarily while you're experimenting with placement. I mean, we're all dedicated to this hobby, but better frequency response is not worth a hernia operation.

The second row is on a platform so I had to lift it. Also tried to stack it.

I will try 7.5 near the center of the seats. But my MLP is front row center. So I didn't think it would be accurate due to near field bass.

I tried single sub at front wall center, that did not help. I tried every inch of the front wall.

I watched new underworld, the bass did sound better but lots of ringing. I need treatments.
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post #2557 of 11877 Old 04-13-2013, 09:04 PM
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I always enjoy reading your suggestions, Sanjay. Now that I see the room layout, using 15' in the calculator is the obvious answer.

@MP5475, I wouldn't worry about having the sub in the center "too close". I have two 15" subs two feet behind my MLP, and because of the omnidirectionality of bass frequencies, I can't distinguish them from the two subs up front. I would worry more about how you could have both the sub and the center channel at the center of the wall--that will be a challenge.

BTW, my two front subs are at the 1/4 and 3/4 points as Sanjay recommends, and that placement indeed tames the 2nd mode.

What are those black rectangles on your walls--are those treatments? If so, what are they? Once you get the 37Hz problem solved, the bass ringing really needs to be addressed, as you have already recognized.

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post #2558 of 11877 Old 04-13-2013, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I always enjoy reading your suggestions, Sanjay. Now that I see the room layout, using 15' in the calculator is the obvious answer.

@MP5475, I wouldn't worry about having the sub in the center "too close". I have two 15" subs two feet behind my MLP, and because of the omnidirectionality of bass frequencies, I can't distinguish them from the two subs up front. I would worry more about how you could have both the sub and the center channel at the center of the wall--that will be a challenge.

BTW, my two front subs are at the 1/4 and 3/4 points as Sanjay recommends, and that placement indeed tames the 2nd mode.

What are those black rectangles on your walls--are those treatments? If so, what are they? Once you get the 37Hz problem solved, the bass ringing really needs to be addressed, as you have already recognized.

I guess it's a place to start over again. I have tried center of 15 at the front wall. I moved the center channel to do so.. That did not get rid of the dip. I was thinking near the front row but it would block the LRC.

Those black thing are 1 inch fiberglass panels. Someone gave it to me. From what hear, they are useless.

How bad is that dip 37 subjectively? It's about 10db change.
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post #2559 of 11877 Old 04-13-2013, 09:25 PM
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General question. Anything below 500hz is bass, right? What is important for movies and music? 100 percent movies for me. Looking at my curve, it gets pretty nasty above 100. Should i worry about this and what can I do?
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With a room 15' wide at the listening position you will have a dip at 37.67 Hz in the middle of the room. While massive amounts of bass traps might help, the dip is due to signals cancelling in the middle of the room and there's probably not a lot you can do about it. The good news is that such dips tend to be fairly narrow. You could try putting the sub, or a sub, near the listening position to see if you can cancel the null, but that tends to be very hard to do without messing up other frequencies.

Where bass frequencies start tends to be defined differently in different texts but it is well below 500 Hz in all my references. The low end of the vocal range is around 300 Hz. The lowest note on a lot of "vocal range" instruments like clarinet, trumpet, tenor sax etc. is around 100 Hz. The lowest string on a regular guitar is around 80 Hz, around 40 Hz on a bass guitar. I think what I have seen most often is 300 Hz down to 150 Hz being upper or mid bass, 75 to 150 Hz being just "bass" or low bass, and below 75 Hz or so sub-bass (subwoofer area).

No doubt others will have other ranges...

HTH - Don

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post #2561 of 11877 Old 04-13-2013, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp5475 View Post

General question. Anything below 500hz is bass, right? What is important for movies and music? 100 percent movies for me. Looking at my curve, it gets pretty nasty above 100. Should i worry about this and what can I do?

Should you worry? Depends. When you are listening to movies, how does it sound? Are you aware of any issues? Two areas that you should listen for are the quality of dialog--is it clear, and do the voices sound natural? And is the lower bass well defined, not boomy or one-note?

Keep in mind that the improvement process is gradual. I have been experimenting and improving over the last several years, and always feel like there is something left to do.

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post #2562 of 11877 Old 04-14-2013, 12:36 AM
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^^^Can you click the legend in your pics so we can see the smoothing (assuming it's 1/6 above) and which channel(s) are included?  Be sure to put something descriptive in the measurement title so it shows up in the legend.  The whole LFE channel thing seems to be overcomplicating your bass measurements.  Could you just take a measurement of the L or R channel with the speaker unplugged?  Then you'll just be left with your redirected bass response.  Getting the sub location as right as it can be in your room should be your first priority.

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You do not need anything in the timing reference box at all when measuring the combined speakers plus sub. Bass management will cause the sub to play. IOW, if you have L or R or C speaker selected, then the timing reference box needs to be empty. This will then give you whichever speaker you have selected plus the redirected bass. If you want to test the speakers without the sub, then physically disconnect the sub or switch it off. If you want to test the sub alone, select Output 4 (and again with the timing ref box blank). 

Thanks, guys. I understand now...doing a sweep with the mains amp off will give the redirected bass information, while shutting down the sub will show the curve for the selected speaker minus the sub.
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post #2563 of 11877 Old 04-14-2013, 02:00 AM
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GREEN = Left speaker with one ULS-15 placed next to FL speaker (about 1/4 of the way in) and a 2nd ULS sub by the FR speaker. 1/6 smoothing.

RED = Left speaker with one ULS placed next to FL speaker and a VTF-MK2 sub placed on the left side wall, almost midway, and raised 22-inches (where 2nd ULS-15 does not fit).



I have the MK2's volume at 10 o'clock so the boost in the low range is all due to placement. I'll try to fix the 50 Hz peak tomorrow using my Anti-Mode IIS. The devise hasn't been a knockout for me thus far, to put it nicely.

I watched Les Miserables tonight for the first time and the movie and bass was AWESOME! Still much more work to be done.
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I
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Should you worry? Depends. When you are listening to movies, how does it sound? Are you aware of any issues? Two areas that you should listen for are the quality of dialog--is it clear, and do the voices sound natural? And is the lower bass well defined, not boomy or one-note?

Keep in mind that the improvement process is gradual. I have been experimenting and improving over the last several years, and always feel like there is something left to do.[/quote

I would have to say vocals are pretty clear. Lower bass sounds boomy and sometimes I wonder if its one note. When I set my system up, I expected to be blown away. It's sounds good but not amazing.

So those peaks and dips above 100, what can I do? Does it make a big difference? Here on the forum, it seems like we focus on sub 100. Which I want to focus on since I can't even get that smoothed.

Thanks for the info and suggestions.
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post #2565 of 11877 Old 04-14-2013, 09:03 AM
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Anyone have experience with ATS acoustics bass traps? I have two GIK monster traps.

But if I can buy their fill your self panels, I could be making one for total of 30 bucks vs 100 for monster

Here is absorption for ATS




for mosnter

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post #2566 of 11877 Old 04-14-2013, 09:53 AM
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I have no experience with ATS DIY panels, although I have four of their 2" broadband panels. A 2" panel is not particularly effective. I think you need at least 4" to be effective. Having said that, based on the stats you posted, it looks like the GIK treatment effectiveness peaks at 80Hz, while the ATS treatments are more effective at slightly higher frequencies.

When deciding on treatments, it is important that you have an objective before you start. If you want to smooth out irregularities in the overall frequency response, then speaker (and MLP) placement is the best approach. Treatments are not necessarily effective for smoothing the response above 250Hz. Once you have a reasonable flatness to the frequency response, the next areas of focus are bass ringing and reflections. Both can be managed by a careful selection and application of treatments. I highly recommend several articles over on the HiFiZine web site (http://www.hifizine.com/departments/technical-and-diy/). Paul Spencer has published a three-part series on Bass Integration that is an excellent read. And Nayal Mellor has a very informative article on Listening Room Reflections.

Since you seem to want to get good value for the money you spend on treatments, I can't overemphasize the value of doing the research ahead of time. The rewards can be fun and satisfying!

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post #2567 of 11877 Old 04-14-2013, 10:02 AM
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Thanks for the info, as always, Jerry.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post

GREEN = Left speaker with one ULS-15 placed next to FL speaker (about 1/4 of the way in) and a 2nd ULS sub by the FR speaker. 1/6 smoothing.

RED = Left speaker with one ULS placed next to FL speaker and a VTF-MK2 sub placed on the left side wall, almost midway, and raised 22-inches (where 2nd ULS-15 does not fit).



I have the MK2's volume at 10 o'clock so the boost in the low range is all due to placement. I'll try to fix the 50 Hz peak tomorrow using my Anti-Mode IIS. The devise hasn't been a knockout for me thus far, to put it nicely.

I watched Les Miserables tonight for the first time and the movie and bass was AWESOME! Still much more work to be done.

Green = FR with one sub and no Anti-Mode
Red = FR response with two subs (arranged as described above) and Anti-Mode



Amazing!
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post #2569 of 11877 Old 04-14-2013, 02:57 PM
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Amazing!

And quite lovely. Good work.


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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #2570 of 11877 Old 04-14-2013, 03:03 PM
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Green = FR with one sub and no Anti-Mode
Red = FR response with two subs (arranged as described above) and Anti-Mode



Amazing!

Indeed, looking quite good!

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post #2571 of 11877 Old 04-15-2013, 09:36 AM
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I have been doing some measurements today (hopefully the last measurements for a while, because I plan on taking a vacation from making any changes).  In case anyone asks you about the advantage of multiple subs towards achieving a flatter response curve, here are some pictures that seem to prove that when it comes to subs, more is always better.  Or, as our friend Keith would say, "You can never have too much subwoofage".

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am reasonably pleased with the combined response.


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post #2572 of 11877 Old 04-15-2013, 09:49 AM
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Unfortunately, with regards to bass ringing, adding more subs doesn't improve things.  The overall resonance never gets much better than the single worst sub resonance (which makes sense).  For the four-sub configuration above (main speakers turned off), the bass resonance looks like this:

 

 

Based on the recommendations in the subwoofer articles over on http://www.hifizine.com/departments/technical-and-diy/, I am now using these settings for Waterfall graphs:

 

 

The Decay Plot looks like this:

 

 

The worst resonance, at 68Hz, is down 15dB in the first 160ms, which is slightly shy of the -20dB target.


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post #2573 of 11877 Old 04-15-2013, 09:53 AM
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Adding the mains into the mix doesn't make the waterfalls any worse:

 

 


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post #2574 of 11877 Old 04-15-2013, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Unfortunately, with regards to bass ringing...
Nothing unfortunate about your measurements; that's some of the most controlled ringing I've seen in a residential environment. Take your vacation from measuring and just enjoy your system for a while.

Sanjay
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post #2575 of 11877 Old 04-15-2013, 10:34 AM
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Nothing unfortunate about your measurements; that's some of the most controlled ringing I've seen in a residential environment. Take your vacation from measuring and just enjoy your system for a while.

Thank you, Sanjay! biggrin.gif

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post #2576 of 11877 Old 04-15-2013, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I have been doing some measurements today (hopefully the last measurements for a while, because I plan on taking a vacation from making any changes).  In case anyone asks you about the advantage of multiple subs towards achieving a flatter response curve, here are some pictures that seem to prove that when it comes to subs, more is always better.  Or, as our friend Keith would say, "You can never have too much subwoofage".





Jerry, your non-smoothed response looks better than my smoothed graph. Your room must rock!

BTW, from reading the Onkyo 818 thread, I missed some great sales last week. Apparently B&H Photo had the 818 for as low as $599.00. Now they have it listed for about $970. I settled for Crutchfield at $799.00. Not too bad. Should get it by Wednesday.
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Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post

Jerry, your non-smoothed response looks better than my smoothed graph. Your room must rock!

BTW, from reading the Onkyo 818 thread, I missed some great sales last week. Apparently B&H Photo had the 818 for as low as $599.00. Now they have it listed for about $970. I settled for Crutchfield at $799.00. Not too bad. Should get it by Wednesday.

The 818 should be a nice improvement. You will like what XT32 does. Let's see the measurements after you get it!

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post #2578 of 11877 Old 04-15-2013, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I have been doing some measurements today (hopefully the last measurements for a while, because I plan on taking a vacation from making any changes).  In case anyone asks you about the advantage of multiple subs towards achieving a flatter response curve, here are some pictures that seem to prove that when it comes to subs, more is always better.  Or, as our friend Keith would say, "You can never have too much subwoofage".
















I am reasonably pleased with the combined response.
[/quote

Dang. I want
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post #2579 of 11877 Old 04-15-2013, 03:28 PM
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It looks like your right on the 37Hz being the room. The length is right for it and the next resonant overtones will be 111Hz and 148Hz and it looks like you have the peak/dip there too. Really only room treatments will reduce it. EQing them out only makes dips or peaks on either side of the points before stopping it. You can find resonant frequencies at this site if interested.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-harmonics.htm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp5475 View Post

Hi guys.

after epic 8 hrs of moving three 70 pound subs around, i wanted to shoot someone. I hit a wall and want to see if you guys can help me out



room: L shaped. See pics

front wall width: 20 ft 6 inches,
main seating width: 15 feet,
length: 19 feet and 2 inches
height: 9 feet and 6

It looks like your right on the 37Hz being the room. The length is right for it and the next resonant overtones will be 111Hz and 148Hz and it looks like you have the peak/dip there too. Really only room treatments will reduce it. EQing them out only makes dips or peaks on either side of the points before stopping it. You can find resonant frequencies at this site if interested.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-harmonics.htm

Sorry for the double post all, did not quote properly.
Dwightlf is offline  
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