Should I use receiver's internal test tones OR audio cal. disc? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 21 Old 01-26-2013, 11:29 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Jim McC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oconomowoc, WI.
Posts: 5,890
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Which is more accurate for setting my speaker's decibel levels? I've been reading conflicting things about this. The receiver is the JVC RX-7030.

Another thing I read from an "expert" was to turn off the sub before setting speaker decibel levels. Has anyone ever heard this before, because I never have. Thanks.
Jim McC is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 21 Old 01-27-2013, 12:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: New Milford, CT, USA
Posts: 5,744
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

Which is more accurate? I read online that the receiver's test tones are, so I wanted to get some opinions.

Accurate for what? Measuring the frequency response of your speakers and room, or balancing multiple speakers for equal sound output levels? For measuring frequency response you should use proper software:

Room EQ Wizard, Freeware
Room Measuring Primer

For balancing speaker levels, the best test signal is pink noise containing mostly midrange, with the low and high frequencies rolled off. You play that through your receiver and use an SPL meter while adjusting the channel volumes:

All About SPL Meters

--Ethan

RealTraps - The acoustic treatment experts
Ethan's Audio Expert book

Ethan Winer is offline  
post #3 of 21 Old 01-27-2013, 12:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 6,313
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 723
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

Which is more accurate? I read online that the receiver's test tones are, so I wanted to get some opinions. The receiver is the JVC RX-7030. Thanks.

Curious, why do you need accurate test tones?

lovinthehd is offline  
post #4 of 21 Old 01-27-2013, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Jim McC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oconomowoc, WI.
Posts: 5,890
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Sorry. I amended my original post.
Jim McC is offline  
post #5 of 21 Old 01-27-2013, 02:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 6,313
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 723
The accuracy of your test tones for a particular frequency wouldn't matter. Tones in and of themselves have no idea what amplification or speaker you're using so it's your measurement gear that's accurate or not. How are you measuring the dB output from your speakers? It's one thing to get a total spl at your listening position, another to test individual speakers at your listening position (or other distances). Subs are speakers.

lovinthehd is offline  
post #6 of 21 Old 01-27-2013, 03:52 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Jim McC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oconomowoc, WI.
Posts: 5,890
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 31
I'm using the digital decibel meter from Radio Shack. The only audio cal. disc I have is the "Sound and Vision" Home Theater Tune Up cal. disc. It has audio tests for Dolby Digital and DTS. Would I be better off using that disc or the receiver's test tones? Thanks.
Jim McC is offline  
post #7 of 21 Old 01-27-2013, 04:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 6,313
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 723
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

I'm using the digital decibel meter from Radio Shack. The only audio cal. disc I have is the "Sound and Vision" Home Theater Tune Up cal. disc. It has audio tests for Dolby Digital and DTS. Would I be better off using that disc or the receiver's test tones? Thanks.

I don't think it matters either way much with that meter to just measure spl, just how you position the meter can have a significant effect (be consistent for best results, like using a boom mic stand). If you want more accuracy and more information than just spl get yourself something like an Omnimic from Parts-Express, or a calibrated mic and use REW.

lovinthehd is offline  
post #8 of 21 Old 01-27-2013, 04:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
CharlesJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,106
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

I'm using the digital decibel meter from Radio Shack. The only audio cal. disc I have is the "Sound and Vision" Home Theater Tune Up cal. disc. It has audio tests for Dolby Digital and DTS. Would I be better off using that disc or the receiver's test tones? Thanks.
Why not try it both ways and see if there is a level difference and how much. There is a reason to using a disc as this would use the actual signal path from the player to the speakers. Not sure of the path for internal test tones in the receiver if that may cause an difference.
Also, am not sure how accurate the levels on the disc for each channel as that also can be an issue.
CharlesJ is offline  
post #9 of 21 Old 01-28-2013, 11:26 AM
Senior Member
 
Trebor Pyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Austin,TX
Posts: 210
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
"Pink noise contains all frequencies and sounds like tape hiss. Unlike white noise that contains equal energy at every frequency, pink noise contains equal energy per octave. Technically, pink noise is filtered to have less treble, falling off at a rate of 3 dB per octave. So with white noise, the range 100 to 200 Hz has the same energy as the range 10,000 to 10,100 Hz. With pink noise, the range 100 to 200 Hz has the same energy as the range from 10,000 to 20,000 Hz.

Pink noise is less irritating to listen to than white noise, and you can also play a pink noise test signal much louder without risk of damage to your tweeters. The Digital Video Essentials DVD that I mentioned earlier takes this one step further and filters the pink noise to contain only midrange frequencies. The bass response in most domestic-size rooms varies wildly with position - much more than in the midrange - so filtering the noise ensures more consistent and reliable readings when used for matching loudspeaker levels."

http://www.realtraps.com/art_spl.htm
Trebor Pyn is offline  
post #10 of 21 Old 01-28-2013, 11:59 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 13,659
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 291 Post(s)
Liked: 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

Which is more accurate for setting my speaker's decibel levels? I've been reading conflicting things about this. The receiver is the JVC RX-7030.

What does the receiver provide?

Generally, the best sound to use for setting levels would be a band of noise in the midrange. Another good choice could be what is known as a warble tone in the same range.
Quote:
Another thing I read from an "expert" was to turn off the sub before setting speaker decibel levels. Has anyone ever heard this before, because I never have. Thanks.


Probably pretty good advice if the goal is to match levels from the other speakers.

One of the problems with SPL meters is that they are susceptible to irrelevant noises. Strictly speaking whatever the subwoofer does is largely irrelevant to the other speakers.
arnyk is online now  
post #11 of 21 Old 01-28-2013, 05:09 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Jim McC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oconomowoc, WI.
Posts: 5,890
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

What does the receiver provide?

Generally, the best sound to use for setting levels would be a band of noise in the midrange. Another good choice could be what is known as a warble tone in the same range.
Probably pretty good advice if the goal is to match levels from the other speakers.

One of the problems with SPL meters is that they are susceptible to irrelevant noises. Strictly speaking whatever the subwoofer does is largely irrelevant to the other speakers.


I don't know what you mean by "What does the receiver provide"? If you're asking what type of test tone, I don't know.

When I set my sub to "NONE" in the receiver last night, it set the fronts to large. It wouldn't allow them to be set to "small". Should I leave the fronts set to "Large" while I calibrate the 5 speakers, then change them back to small afterward?
Jim McC is offline  
post #12 of 21 Old 01-28-2013, 05:16 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 13,659
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 291 Post(s)
Liked: 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

What does the receiver provide?

Generally, the best sound to use for setting levels would be a band of noise in the midrange. Another good choice could be what is known as a warble tone in the same range.
Probably pretty good advice if the goal is to match levels from the other speakers.

One of the problems with SPL meters is that they are susceptible to irrelevant noises. Strictly speaking whatever the subwoofer does is largely irrelevant to the other speakers.


I don't know what you mean by "What does the receiver provide"? If you're asking what type of test tone, I don't know.

When I set my sub to "NONE" in the receiver last night, it set the fronts to large. It wouldn't allow them to be set to "small". Should I leave the fronts set to "Large" while I calibrate the 5 speakers, then change them back to small afterward?

I favor turning off the subwoofer for doing SPL meter-based sadjustement by a more direct means that has fewer lasting side effects. Turn the sub off with the power switch if it has one, or pull the AC plug. Restore it once you have adjusted the levels of all of the other speakers.
arnyk is online now  
post #13 of 21 Old 01-29-2013, 12:37 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Jim McC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oconomowoc, WI.
Posts: 5,890
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I favor turning off the subwoofer for doing SPL meter-based sadjustement by a more direct means that has fewer lasting side effects. Turn the sub off with the power switch if it has one, or pull the AC plug. Restore it once you have adjusted the levels of all of the other speakers.

Thanks arnyk. Do you turn off sub in either situation? If you are using the receiver's test tones or a cal. disc?
Jim McC is offline  
post #14 of 21 Old 01-29-2013, 05:50 PM
Senior Member
 
underminded999's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 352
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 16
I've got the RX-8040. Test tones are white noise. Use a calibration disk for professional results. Use the AVR's test tone if going by ear. If you have both, then try both.

What size are your mains? What size is your sub? Any room treatments?
underminded999 is offline  
post #15 of 21 Old 01-29-2013, 07:07 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Jim McC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oconomowoc, WI.
Posts: 5,890
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by underminded999 View Post

I've got the RX-8040. Test tones are white noise. Use a calibration disk for professional results. Use the AVR's test tone if going by ear. If you have both, then try both.

What size are your mains? What size is your sub? Any room treatments?

Mains are 6.5" woofers. Sub is 8". No room treatments. This is our family room/TV setup. Thanks.
Jim McC is offline  
post #16 of 21 Old 01-29-2013, 07:10 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 13,659
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 291 Post(s)
Liked: 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I favor turning off the subwoofer for doing SPL meter-based sadjustement by a more direct means that has fewer lasting side effects. Turn the sub off with the power switch if it has one, or pull the AC plug. Restore it once you have adjusted the levels of all of the other speakers.

Thanks arnyk. Do you turn off sub in either situation? If you are using the receiver's test tones or a cal. disc?

I only turn off the sub if it would interfere with my test results. IOW, if I was was using a test signal that had bass that would adversely affect the test.
arnyk is online now  
post #17 of 21 Old 01-29-2013, 10:44 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Jim McC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oconomowoc, WI.
Posts: 5,890
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I only turn off the sub if it would interfere with my test results. IOW, if I was was using a test signal that had bass that would adversely affect the test.

I have the "Sound and Vision" Home Theater Tune Up disc with audio tests. It has tests for DD and DTS. If I use this disc, should I unplug sub while setting the other 5 speakers? Thanks.
Jim McC is offline  
post #18 of 21 Old 01-30-2013, 12:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
J_Palmer_Cass's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,275
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 112 Post(s)
Liked: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I only turn off the sub if it would interfere with my test results. IOW, if I was was using a test signal that had bass that would adversely affect the test.

I have the "Sound and Vision" Home Theater Tune Up disc with audio tests. It has tests for DD and DTS. If I use this disc, should I unplug sub while setting the other 5 speakers? Thanks.


Just use the AVR test noise, then fine tune by ear for the final dB of the trim settings.

Test disks use DD Dialnorm and various dB FS signal levels, so they can throw your speaker level calibration off a bit.

Below is a FR chart of my receiver's internal test noise. The main speaker test noise is no way near the subwoofer band, so turning off the subwoofer makes no difference one way or the other.


The green line shows the FR of the main speaker test noise.

The red, yellow and violet lines shows the FR of the subwoofer test noise with the LFE filter being set to 80, 120 and 200 Hz.

J_Palmer_Cass is offline  
post #19 of 21 Old 01-30-2013, 11:28 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: New Milford, CT, USA
Posts: 5,744
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

If I use this disc, should I unplug sub while setting the other 5 speakers?

If this is for balancing speaker levels, all speakers should be active including the sub, because that's what happens when you actually listen. Though if that disk uses filtered pink noise like DVD Essentials, there's probably little energy at bass frequencies anyway.

--Ethan

RealTraps - The acoustic treatment experts
Ethan's Audio Expert book

Ethan Winer is offline  
post #20 of 21 Old 01-30-2013, 06:09 PM
Senior Member
 
underminded999's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 352
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post


Mains are 6.5" woofers. Sub is 8". No room treatments. This is our family room/TV setup. Thanks.

JVC has the manual here.

 

Look at pg # 27, on left, under 'Notes:'.

 

Since it is a family room, you can just as well go by ear and use the AVR's test tone.

 

Just out of curiosity, can you engage both "A" and "B" speakers, while in surround mode?

underminded999 is offline  
post #21 of 21 Old 01-30-2013, 08:02 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Jim McC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oconomowoc, WI.
Posts: 5,890
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by underminded999 View Post

JVC has the manual here.

Look at pg # 27, on left, under 'Notes:'.

Since it is a family room, you can just as well go by ear and use the AVR's test tone.

Just out of curiosity, can you engage both "A" and "B" speakers, while in surround mode?


Why would I want to "go by ear" when I have a decibel level meter? As far as your question, I don't know.
Jim McC is offline  
Reply Audio theory, Setup and Chat

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off