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post #271 of 331 Old 08-13-2013, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by smoknlt4 View Post

You know what is ironic about all these cable arguments is that they say you can convince yourself subconsciously that there is a change, you can also just as easily convince yourself that there is no change by dismissing what you actually hear. If you can't hear the difference, stick with your monster cable...

The difference is that we do scientifically valid bias controlled listening tests to arrive at our conclusion. It isn't a question of not being able to hear the difference. The difference simply isn't there. If it were, we would hear it.
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post #272 of 331 Old 08-13-2013, 03:49 PM
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I took a look at the web site. Are these cables actually coiled? Would that create enough inductance to alter the sound? We had a pair of Japanese cables in our test that rolled off the highs but it was coiled a lot tighter than these.
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post #273 of 331 Old 08-13-2013, 05:04 PM
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Ohhh boy!...here we go......the cable debate will go on for infinity!.....(sigh)..
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post #274 of 331 Old 08-13-2013, 05:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

I took a look at the web site. Are these cables actually coiled? Would that create enough inductance to alter the sound? We had a pair of Japanese cables in our test that rolled off the highs but it was coiled a lot tighter than these.
rolled off the highs?....I thought every cable is the same and none of them alter sound?...smile.gif....if what you say is true...then cables can and do make a difference...to a certain degree...smile.gif

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post #275 of 331 Old 08-13-2013, 07:13 PM
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I took a look at the web site. Are these cables actually coiled? Would that create enough inductance to alter the sound? We had a pair of Japanese cables in our test that rolled off the highs but it was coiled a lot tighter than these.
rolled off the highs?....I thought every cable is the same and none of them alter sound?...smile.gif....if what you say is true...then cables can and do make a difference...to a certain degree...smile.gif
Competently designed cables are transparent to the source. Obviously a cable that rolls off the highs is not a well designed cable. If your system requires the highs to be rolled off then evidently you need to remedy whatever is wrong that is causing the brightness or harshness. If you prefer rolled off highs then there are better tools for the job then utilizing some cable as your tone control.

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!
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post #276 of 331 Old 08-13-2013, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Competently designed cables are transparent to the source. Obviously a cable that rolls off the highs is not a well designed cable. If your system requires the highs to be rolled off then evidently you need to remedy whatever is wrong that is causing the brightness or harshness. If you prefer rolled off highs then there are better tools for the job then utilizing some cable as your tone control.
Correct...but in his view all cables are the same and sound no different...this is known to be false...cables can and do differ...be it a small or large amount...this has always been the argument....just most people scream about DBT's otherwise its false...people just need to try for themselves and if they hear no difference then great...for those that do let them enjoy...smile.gif
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post #277 of 331 Old 08-13-2013, 07:28 PM
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Statements like "known to be false" are, well, just false. You may think you hear a difference and that's fine. Enjoy, as you like to say. But, that doesn't mean there really is an audible difference.
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post #278 of 331 Old 08-13-2013, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Statements like "known to be false" are, well, just false. You may think you hear a difference and that's fine. Enjoy, as you like to say. But, that doesn't mean there really is an audible difference.
It is known to be false...you and others want it proven with a flawed DBT only...and you must think I'm alone in this...there are others besides me that hear differences between cables...and there lies the difference...many,many of us CAN hear the difference between cables but picking out A certain cable over another is tough in a DBT because the sound is similar and the slow pace between cable swaps.the change needs to be rapid and on the fly to tell one cable from another...this is why DBT's with cables always fail.Unless the difference between 2 cables is more than a subtle one...smile.gif

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post #279 of 331 Old 08-13-2013, 07:57 PM
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Josh, be reasonable. Normal, competently made cables have no effect on sonics. It is possible to create a Frankenstein that will do so, and I have encountered one, but that isn't the point. I was merely asking if anybody thought this one could behave like the high inductance cable we encountered 10 years ago. Yes there are tube amps with 5% harmonic distortion and even DACs with tube output stages that all sound different from the mainstream. I've encountered many of them. These are Frankensteins and don't represent normal, competent high fidelity. Neither does the amp in your cell phone.
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post #280 of 331 Old 08-13-2013, 08:21 PM
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josh, once again, all you saying is that you and others believe you hear a difference. No doubt that is true. But, that is all that is true. And I doubt you could actually pick one wire from another in any sort of test of your own design where you didn't know which was which in advance.

We already know where this is heading and it's nowhere good. I merely weighed in because you started making statements of fact which are really just personal opinions.
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post #281 of 331 Old 08-13-2013, 10:16 PM - Thread Starter
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josh, once again, all you saying is that you and others believe you hear a difference. No doubt that is true. But, that is all that is true. And I doubt you could actually pick one wire from another in any sort of test of your own design where you didn't know which was which in advance.

We already know where this is heading and it's nowhere good. I merely weighed in because you started making statements of fact which are really just personal opinions.
Bislander you reply to this thread because you like to argue with others that dont have the same views you do and you cannot accept that.You also are using the word BELIEVE to describe what I and others hear and have heard and you will never take another anwser other than placebo and imagination.Here you go again talking about flawed DBT's.....what you and many others fail to understand is it is not about picking a specific wire blindly 40/40 or 50/50 times correctly without knowing....its being able to hear the difference between 2 cables and switching quickly between them while listening to a piece of music or a movie scene and noteing the difference.

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post #282 of 331 Old 08-13-2013, 10:41 PM
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Josh, how are DBT's flawed? Why and how do the differences you think you hear disappear under DBT situations? Why do you have to know 100% of the time which cable or audio component is in use for the differences, that you claim to be readily apparent, to be heard?

I think you like fooling yourself.

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post #283 of 331 Old 08-13-2013, 10:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Josh, how are DBT's flawed? Why and how do the differences you think you hear disappear under DBT situations? Why do you have to know 100% of the time which cable or audio component is in use for the differences, that you claim to be readily apparent, to be heard?

I think you like fooling yourself.

I have already explained why.

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post #284 of 331 Old 08-13-2013, 10:58 PM
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Josh, how are DBT's flawed? Why and how do the differences you think you hear disappear under DBT situations? Why do you have to know 100% of the time which cable or audio component is in use for the differences, that you claim to be readily apparent, to be heard?

I think you like fooling yourself.

I have already explained why.
So you do liked being duped. Care to explain what that feels like?

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!
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post #285 of 331 Old 08-13-2013, 11:05 PM - Thread Starter
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So you do liked being duped. Care to explain what that feels like?
when you ask a serious question I will anwser...smile.gif

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post #286 of 331 Old 08-13-2013, 11:12 PM
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....its being able to hear the difference between 2 cables and switching quickly between them while listening to a piece of music or a movie scene and noteing the difference.

And have you been able to do this double blind - I mean really double blind, not an Axiom (or other common misuse) kind of double blind?

If so, there's a whole ton of people in the AES who would love to see you do it. smile.gif
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post #287 of 331 Old 08-13-2013, 11:21 PM - Thread Starter
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And have you been able to do this double blind - I mean really double blind, not an Axiom (or other common misuse) kind of double blind?

If so, there's a whole ton of people in the AES who would love to see you do it. smile.gif
I will simply say I have done my own comparisions....my favorite being what I noticed from stranded wire to the solid core I use now.

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post #288 of 331 Old 08-14-2013, 12:20 AM
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I will simply say I have done my own comparisions....

K just checking. smile.gif
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post #289 of 331 Old 08-14-2013, 01:06 AM
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....my favorite being what I noticed from stranded wire to the solid core I use now.
A difference between stranded and solid? rolleyes.gif Now that's just plain silly.
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post #290 of 331 Old 08-14-2013, 04:16 AM
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And have you been able to do this double blind - I mean really double blind, not an Axiom (or other common misuse) kind of double blind?

If so, there's a whole ton of people in the AES who would love to see you do it. smile.gif
I will simply say I have done my own comparisions....my favorite being what I noticed from stranded wire to the solid core I use now.

Sighted evaluation, right?

There is no reason why tightly twisted stranded and solid wire of the same gauge would have a measurable or audible difference.

I've done some bench tests with ridiculously low residuals, and the differences just aren't there. And of course DBTs also find null results.

Interstand conduction distortion is a myth because there are no significant potential differences as you go down the wire. Skin effect doesn't cause any changes either because skin effect does not vary with tightly bundled strands as compared to solid wire because it is based on the magnetic field that envelops the whole conductor.
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post #291 of 331 Old 08-14-2013, 07:19 AM
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This whole cable debate is like a penny
Heads on one side tails on the other..been that way for 100 yrs..it will be that way for 1000 more.
The believers will always believe
the non- believers will never believe
There is no right or wrong...each side has valid points...there is no use in trying to make any side change there veiws on this topic.
the most important thing here is that we all care about music and video..and how are systems create the sound we all find to be reference..no matter what amp, dac, cables..etc you use.
im sure we all have better things to do than ride this merry- go- round...like listen to music
Go to the beach....go out and talk to the birds..etc
lets just be happy we all have A/V in common.
And nowdays thats important!... not everybody hears the same..some are just genetically born that way...some have golden ears..some ...it may be medication that increases the senses..i dont know
dogs have super hearing..as do cats.
Lets just enjoy our setups..no matter what were using!...im just very very happy to sit down after a long day and go to my happy place..that happens to be right between my speakers!
Thank you...peace!
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post #292 of 331 Old 08-14-2013, 07:52 AM
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I don't get involved to convince the true believers. That's pointless. Rather, it's to provide context for those less informed who may think all of that marketing language and pseudo-science may have some validity.

As for golden ears, isn't it curious that none of them is willing to demonstrate their abilities by participating in a test of their own design where the only stipulation is that they do not know which wire is which in advance.
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post #293 of 331 Old 08-14-2013, 08:50 AM
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This whole cable debate is like a penny
Heads on one side tails on the other..been that way for 100 yrs..it will be that way for 1000 more.
The believers will always believe
the non- believers will never believe
There is no right or wrong...each side has valid points...there is no use in trying to make any side change there veiws on this topic.

You are drawing a false equivalency between two rather different set of views. Only one side of your coin has empirical evidence to support it.
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post #294 of 331 Old 08-14-2013, 08:55 AM
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I don't get involved to convince the true believers. That's pointless. Rather, it's to provide context for those less informed who may think all of that marketing language and pseudo-science may have some validity.

As for golden ears, isn't it curious that none of them is willing to demonstrate their abilities by participating in a test of their own design where the only stipulation is that they do not know which wire is which in advance.


ummm, I did exactly that.... with 3 broad ranges of cables.... Walmart cable, mid grade AQ cable and high end AQ cable. I was 5 for 5 at telling which cable was playing..... It was a blind test on my part but the guy submitting the test knew which cable was which. I bet he was sending me the information telepathically so the test was flawed... rolleyes.gif
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post #295 of 331 Old 08-14-2013, 09:05 AM
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I don't get involved to convince the true believers. That's pointless. Rather, it's to provide context for those less informed who may think all of that marketing language and pseudo-science may have some validity.

As for golden ears, isn't it curious that none of them is willing to demonstrate their abilities by participating in a test of their own design where the only stipulation is that they do not know which wire is which in advance.


ummm, I did exactly that.... with 3 broad ranges of cables.... Walmart cable, mid grade AQ cable and high end AQ cable. I was 5 for 5 at telling which cable was playing..... It was a blind test on my part but the guy submitting the test knew which cable was which. I bet he was sending me the information telepathically so the test was flawed... rolleyes.gif

More likely he telegraphed what he knew via body language.

I don't know what gauge and lengths of cables were involved, so I don't know if there was enough simple difference (amount of copper per foot) to explain the audible difference. At any rate there is about 1 chance in 30 that you obtained the results you state by random guessing, which is one of those things that just happens every once in a while in the real world. If you inadvertantly hooked one of the speakers up backwards (IME more likely) the observed results are 100% probable.
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post #296 of 331 Old 08-14-2013, 09:36 AM
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More likely he telegraphed what he knew via body language.

I don't know what gauge and lengths of cables were involved, so I don't know if there was enough simple difference (amount of copper per foot) to explain the audible difference. At any rate there is about 1 chance in 30 that you obtained the results you state by random guessing, which is one of those things that just happens every once in a while in the real world. If you inadvertantly hooked one of the speakers up backwards (IME more likely) the observed results are 100% probable.

This was 10+ years ago, from what I remember, it was cheap walmart cable, mid grade copper AQ cable, and high end silver AQ cable, all 10 foot runs. The idea was that we were looking for difference in the large jumps in cable quality.


This test was done for fun amongst friends, no chance of a sale... In fact, he was standing behind me. I would explain the whole test but I have already done so on this forum and no matter what the details, it's just easier to dismiss it as a flawed test. Is it possible to find a flaw in just about any test, yeah probably so. We tried to make it as un-biased as possible in a listening room. Were we going for indisputable scientific results? No..... Did either one of us care that much? No........... Was there a difference? Yes.
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post #297 of 331 Old 08-14-2013, 09:40 AM
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You are drawing a false equivalency between two rather different set of views. Only one side of your coin has empirical evidence to support it.
The other side of the coin is my ears...and i trust those more than any fact/ scientific study!
Like i said...stop the merry go round....its useless!
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post #298 of 331 Old 08-14-2013, 09:45 AM
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smoknlt4 - It is encouraging to see a subjectivist who agrees that unsighted testing is valid. Now, someone just needs to set up a rigorous, public test.
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post #299 of 331 Old 08-14-2013, 09:50 AM
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Why are all these cable debates always around consumer AV systems. The cable makers have discovered new physics in the transfer of electrical energy yet it is only applicable in the consumer audio market?

Some six foot $2000 SPDIF or HDMI cable transports data better then anything else on the market yet the multi billion dollar computer networking industry shows no interest in the technology? Current SOTA in copper networks is 10 gigabits. None of this advanced cable engineering from the audio sector is applicable?

Let's look at speaker cables and power cords. You mean to tell me the solar power and electric car industries with billions in backing aren't interested in a new cable technology that limits energy loss?

Again, why are the breakthroughs in cable engineering limited solely to the audiophile market?

Doesn't make sense does it?
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post #300 of 331 Old 08-14-2013, 09:58 AM
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Again, why are the breakthroughs in cable engineering limited solely to the audiophile market?
Because that's where the suckers are. In no other technical field would anyone tolerate naive sensory evaluation.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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