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post #181 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Please see post 172 for an example of that.
That is information relavent to the topic...power cables and gas are not...smile.gif

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post #182 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Please see post 172 for an example of that.
I also see you haven't answered any of my questions in post 172.

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post #183 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 10:11 AM
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This is a tread dead from the beginning , to the OP " only " his impression about the cables matter , not one valid point was brought to this discussion from his part "only because he says so" . He contradicts himself over and over or because it doesn't change sound but "he" can hear a difference so what is't ??? He doesn't answer a strait question ( who would if they don't have any prof beside " i say so " or other testimonials in the anticable site ) . For your information company's like Monster or Bose will dissect bare naked comments like this since they invested much more to reach there goals .

My conclusion is 99% of the users that participate in this tread call it BS , only 1% believe that they are worth it and companies like this they only need one fool to reach that goal .

The best way to aboard his tread is .... "cool you like it lets move on" eventually we will stop feeding his ego .

Unfortunately he lost all credibility in this tread or in future ones that he might participate since right now he has 0 credibility . This is very sad when a human being at a certain point doesn't acknowledged the facts .
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post #184 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by almadacr View Post

This is a tread dead from the beginning , to the OP " only " his impression about the cables matter , not one valid point was brought to this discussion from his part "only because he says so" . He contradicts himself over and over or because it doesn't change sound but "he" can hear a difference so what is't ??? He doesn't answer a strait question ( who would if they don't have any prof beside " i say so " or other testimonials in the anticable site ) . For your information company's like Monster or Bose will dissect bare naked comments like this since they invested much more to reach there goals .

My conclusion is 99% of the users that participate in this tread call it BS , only 1% believe that they are worth it and companies like this they only need one fool to reach that goal .

The best way to aboard his tread is .... "cool you like it lets move on" eventually we will stop feeding his ego .

Unfortunately he lost all credibility in this tread or in future ones that he might participate since right now he has 0 credibility . This is very sad when a human being at a certain point doesn't acknowledged the facts .
These cables are my opinion yes...Im not alone in what I hear...posting that I'm a liar and I have a big ego is your opinion...I haven't discredited myself at all...the choice lies in others if they want to try them...you however seem hell bent to bash anyone with an opinion other than your own...I've not been nasty to any of the posters...I've tried to keep it as civil as I can...you are offering nothing but your own disbelief and feel it prudent to trash talk.

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post #185 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 10:25 AM
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OP, It's good that you are happy with your cable purchase but do understand that this forum is called Audio Video Science so don't be shocked that many of us are skeptical of the difference you are hearing with your cables. AudioGon's forum might be a little nicer!

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

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post #186 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

OP, It's good that you are happy with your cable purchase but do understand that this forum is called Audio Video Science so don't be shocked that many of us are skeptical of the difference you are hearing with your cables. AudioGon's forum might be a little nicer!
Thanks...and I'm a member of AudioGon....and ive always said it was upto the individual to try them or not...if they disbelieve thats perfectly fine...oh and did you ask your uncle why he chose Anti cable for his system?

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post #187 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

You misspelled always...smile.gif...and you are going way off topic...stop trolling the thread and posting about information that isn't realavent... Your fueling the fire...please show some maturity and let it go.

You miispeeed "you're" and "relevant." As a bad typist and dyslexic proofreader I usually try to avoid calling attention to such stuff unless there is a decent joke to be made. And I generally disagree w your comment. . .
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post #188 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

You miispeeed "you're" and "relevant." As a bad typist and dyslexic proofreader I usually try to avoid calling attention to such stuff unless there is a decent joke to be made. And I generally disagree w your comment. . .
Great...and what is miispeeed?...smile.gif.

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post #189 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

You miispeeed "you're" and "relevant." As a bad typist and dyslexic proofreader I usually try to avoid calling attention to such stuff unless there is a decent joke to be made. .
I guess this is one miispeeeding you couldn't avoid. smile.gif
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post #190 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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I guess this is one miispeeeding you couldn't avoid. smile.gif
Sorry your response made me laugh...smile.gif

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post #191 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Colm View Post


Resistance doesn't have an audible effect, expect for volume,

Inductance is primariiy a function of the length of the wire. Wire gauge and cable construction can make some difference. But unless you have a very, very long cable, the inductance of a cable won't have an audible effect.

Capacitance is a function of cable geometry and the type of insulation. It isn't generally a problem, except in some boutique cables.

So lets look at some numbers:

Level 3 Belden
anticable 5000UE
R(ohms/foot) 0.0016 0.0016
L(mH/foot) 0.0003 0.00015
C(nF/foot) 0.048 0.024

But the relevant fact is that both measure low enough that you won't hear a difference between them because of RLC.

So, it is obvious RLC is not an argument one can use to explain the audible superiority of anticables.

The anticable numbers are drastically incorrect. There is no way it measures 300 nH per foot and 48 pf per foot at the same time. The belden numbers are reasonable for normal dielectrics.

If you consider the delays introduces by the LRC of a physical length of wire as a result of the line to load mismatch, then your assertions are not entirely accurate..

jn

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post #192 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colm View Post


A perfect wire would have no resistance, capacitance or inductance. A practical wire has all three. We just want to keep the values low enough that they have no audible effect.

Agreed.
Quote:
Resistance doesn't have an audible effect, expect for volume, as long as the resistance of the speaker cables doesn't exceed say 5% of the lowest impedance of the speaker.

If you said 2% you would be unconditionally right. 5% allows for a 0.5 dB variation in frequency response which if over a broad enough range, is audible.
Quote:
So assuming that you have an adequate size wire to start with, ETP or OFC won't make a difference. The difference in resistance between ETP and OFC is less than 1%.

Agreed.
Quote:
Inductance is primariiy a function of the length of the wire. Wire gauge and cable construction can make some difference. But unless you have a very, very long cable, the inductance of a cable won't have an audible effect.

Wire construction can have a strong effect on inductance. Separating the conductors decreases mutual inductance which increases series inductance. Inductance is very low for coaxial cables because the concentric construction maximizes the mutual inductance between the conductors. Larger coax has more ESL because the conductors are more widely separated and this reduces mutual inductance between the two conductors.

At 10 gauge, skin effect is close to being significant at home theater lengths.

12 gauge zip cord has about 0.24 uH/foot while a comparable coax Belden 7809A has about 0.06 uH per foot. That is a 400% variation due solely to cable geometry.
Quote:
Capacitance is a function of cable geometry and the type of insulation. It isn't generally a problem, except in some boutique cables.

So lets look at some numbers:

Level 3 Belden
anticable 5000UE
R(ohms/foot) 0.0016 0.0016
L(mH/foot) 0.0003 0.00015
C(nF/foot) 0.048 0.024

Gee, two 12 AWG wires have the same resistance per foot to four significant digits even though one is ETP and one one is OFC. And the Belden 5000UE has half the capacitance and inductance per foot of the anticable. The Belden 5000UE measures superior to the anticable. But the relevant fact is that both measure low enough that you won't hear a difference between them because of RLC.

The Belden 5000UE appears to be tightly twisted while the Anticable appears to be loosely twisted or untwisted. Tight twisting increases mutual inductance which reduced series inductance.

Quote:
So, it is obvious RLC is not an argument one can use to explain the audible superiority of anticables.

Agreed.
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post #193 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colm View Post


Resistance doesn't have an audible effect, expect for volume,

Inductance is primariiy a function of the length of the wire. Wire gauge and cable construction can make some difference. But unless you have a very, very long cable, the inductance of a cable won't have an audible effect.

Capacitance is a function of cable geometry and the type of insulation. It isn't generally a problem, except in some boutique cables.

So lets look at some numbers:

Level 3 Belden
anticable 5000UE
R(ohms/foot) 0.0016 0.0016
L(mH/foot) 0.0003 0.00015
C(nF/foot) 0.048 0.024

But the relevant fact is that both measure low enough that you won't hear a difference between them because of RLC.

So, it is obvious RLC is not an argument one can use to explain the audible superiority of anticables.

The anticable numbers are drastically incorrect. There is no way it measures 300 nH per foot and 48 pf per foot at the same time. The belden numbers are reasonable for normal dielectrics.

If you consider the delays introduces by the LRC of a physical length of wire as a result of the line to load mismatch, then your assertions are not entirely accurate..

Your exception seems reasonable, but the person who posted them is correctly copying data from the vendor's web site:

http://anticables.com/technical
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post #194 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Your exception seems reasonable, but the person who posted them is correctly copying data from the vendor's web site:

http://anticables.com/technical

I figured as much. It makes no difference to me where the data came from however. I just wanted it clear that the data is indeed nonsense.

My first guess would be they don't know how to use the cal function of the L meter to remove the setup inductance. I see that a lot.

10% of all belden's inductance measurements were incorrect back about 10 years ago. But the Belden numbers posted in this thread were very reasonable.

jn

Ah,,PS.

Arny, coax is a bit funny in regard to mutual inductance. There is none between the core and the shield. Rather, what happens is that the magnetic field of the core is completely cancelled by the shield magnetic field when the currents are equal. As such, the inductance of a coax is just the field integral from the core outer boundary to the shield inner boundary.

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post #195 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Your exception seems reasonable, but the person who posted them is correctly copying data from the vendor's web site:

http://anticables.com/technical
And yet I don't see you challenging his view...the level 3 anti cable is a double run of the solid core 12 AWG cable...I'm using the level 2 that is 1 run of 12AWG.

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post #196 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 01:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

I figured as much. It makes no difference to me where the data came from however. I just wanted it clear that the data is indeed nonsense.

My first guess would be they don't know how to use the cal function of the L meter to remove the setup inductance. I see that a lot.

10% of all belden's inductance measurements were incorrect back about 10 years ago. But the numbers posted in this thread were very reasonable.

jn
If you think the numbers are bugus send Paul speltz and email or call him and ask...he is an EE so I'm sure he isn't crazy.

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post #197 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

Nothing constructive to add I see
Do you really want something constructive? It's a farce. If you truly believe it's not, James Randi is offering $1 million to prove him wrong. Here are some links:

http://gizmodo.com/305549/james-randi-offers-1-million-if-audiophiles-can-prove-7250-speaker-cables-are-better

Of course, the guy making the cables chickened out:
http://gizmodo.com/315250/pear-cable-chickens-out-of-1000000-challenge-we-search-for-answers

Why is there NO perfect equipment, only compromises?
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post #198 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 01:19 PM
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Speltz probably got the numbers from a vendor's data shetet. And since when does being an EE mean that one's not crazy? Dr. Oz is pretty nutty.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #199 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

If you think the numbers are bugus send Paul speltz and email or call him and ask...he is an EE so I'm sure he isn't crazy.

If he is interested, perhaps you can let him know. Some cable vendors simply ignore me (hmm, maybe it's me?cool.gif?).

These types of cables will ALWAYS have L and C in a very specific relationship, and that is the product will always be very close to constant.

LC = 1034 EDC, L in nH per foot, C in pF per foot. For zips, EDC is between 4 and about 6. For coax and wide aspect ration striplines, EDC will be the dielectric coefficient of the insulation. Non foamed plastics are generally 2.7 to 4, and foamed are generally 1.05 to about 1.5.

The propogation velocity of the cable will be C times 1/sqr (EDC).

ps..btw, if EDC calcs out to less than 1, the cable is superluminal and King Gustav will be calling. If it's 14 as per the stated values, then you've a valuable new dielectric which should find it's way into capacitors. Course, the more reasonable explanation is test

pps. I've tacked up a graph showing the tradeoff between L and C for varying DC's. Note that the data is with double braid construction, so the 15 nH per foot internal inductance is not present in the graph. Nor, is there any consideration for proximity effect between closely spaced wires which would slightly reduce the numbers.

error.

jn

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post #200 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

If he is interested, perhaps you can let him know. Some cable vendors simply ignore me (hmm, maybe it's me?cool.gif?).

These types of cables will ALWAYS have L and C in a very specific relationship, and that is the product will always be very close to constant.

LC = 1034 EDC, L in nH per foot, C in pF per foot. For zips, EDC is between 4 and about 6. For coax and wide aspect ration striplines, EDC will be the dielectric coefficient of the insulation. Non foamed plastics are generally 2.7 to 4, and foamed are generally 1.05 to about 1.5.

The propogation velocity of the cable will be C times 1/sqr (EDC).

ps..btw, if EDC calcs out to less than 1, the cable is superluminal and King Gustav will be calling. If it's 14 as per the stated values, then you've a valuable new dielectric which should find it's way into capacitors. Course, the more reasonable explanation is test error.

jn
How is it my job to ask him YOUR question?...you can click a button...type a few words and press send...smile.gif...hope you get the answer you seek.

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post #201 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Your exception seems reasonable, but the person who posted them is correctly copying data from the vendor's web site:

http://anticables.com/technical
And yet I don't see you challenging his view...the level 3 anti cable is a double run of the solid core 12 AWG cable...I'm using the level 2 that is 1 run of 12AWG.

12 gauge cable is OK speaker cable, even if it is solid which makes it harder to route and more likely to break.

Selling for it about 20 times what it is worth is good for the vendor... ;-)

The level 3 stuff, if it is dual 12 gauge works out to be like 9 gauge wire and that is large enough to possibly have audible losses with some speakers at high frequencies due to inductance and skin effect.
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post #202 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

If he is interested, perhaps you can let him know. Some cable vendors simply ignore me (hmm, maybe it's me?cool.gif?).

These types of cables will ALWAYS have L and C in a very specific relationship, and that is the product will always be very close to constant.

LC = 1034 EDC, L in nH per foot, C in pF per foot. For zips, EDC is between 4 and about 6. For coax and wide aspect ration striplines, EDC will be the dielectric coefficient of the insulation. Non foamed plastics are generally 2.7 to 4, and foamed are generally 1.05 to about 1.5.

The propogation velocity of the cable will be C times 1/sqr (EDC).

ps..btw, if EDC calcs out to less than 1, the cable is superluminal and King Gustav will be calling. If it's 14 as per the stated values, then you've a valuable new dielectric which should find it's way into capacitors. Course, the more reasonable explanation is test error.

jn
How is it my job to ask him YOUR question?...you can click a button...type a few words and press send...smile.gif...hope you get the answer you seek.

Your vendor has your money, and that gives him more responsibility towards you that some random person on a conference like me, who is too well-informed to waste money with him.
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post #203 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Speltz probably got the numbers from a vendor's data shetet. And since when does being an EE mean that one's not crazy? Dr. Oz is pretty nutty.

I suspect he or someone dropped a zero, maybe a typo on the web site.
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post #204 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I suspect he or someone dropped a zero, maybe a typo on the web site.
You wouldn't have to use words like SUSPECT if you got an answer from Paul yourself.

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post #205 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Your vendor has your money, and that gives him more responsibility towards you that some random person on a conference like me, who is too well-informed to waste money with him.
You don't have to waste money...but you can ask to get the answers you seek...instead of speculation.

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post #206 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 01:45 PM
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How is it my job to ask him YOUR question?...you can click a button...type a few words and press send...smile.gif...hope you get the answer you seek.

It is not your job at all. I merely pointed out that I have in the past informed vendors of their errors and was ignored for my trouble.


If you read my post again, you will find that I do not have any questions of the vendor. More specifically, I am very well aware of the problems in measuring inductances at the nanohenry and sub nanohenry level, so already know what was done incorrectly. Anybody who sells wires for a living but posts inaccurate measurements on the product should be advised of that fact.


I only have provided information which would make him a better and more informed vendor, but have no desire to hunt him down to correct his errors. Measurement of inductance at these levels is not easy for the un-initiated, my graphical content and equations can help anybody determine the accuracy of their test setup. Capacitance is in general, quite easily done at these levels, so half the info can be relied upon.

I point out the errors simply to address the issue of comparing apples to apples. Using bad data in a comparison is of no use.

jn

ps..Josh. It is not anybody's job to seek out errors in vendor websites and correct them.

Arny..it is not a simple slip of the decimal point anywhere, the EDC of the data presented is 14, so an order of magnitude would be 1.4 which is too low for an unconstrained cable geometry.

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post #207 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 01:49 PM
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Your vendor has your money, and that gives him more responsibility towards you that some random person on a conference like me, who is too well-informed to waste money with him.
You don't have to waste money...but you can ask to get the answers you seek...instead of speculation.

So you think that the obvious errors in his web site are speculation on our part?

It tain't so. They are real errors.
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post #208 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 01:50 PM
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If you think the numbers are bugus send ... .

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You wouldn't have to use words like SUSPECT if you got an answer from Paul yourself.

It would probably be a "bugus" answer. biggrin.gif
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post #209 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 01:51 PM
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I suspect he or someone dropped a zero, maybe a typo on the web site.
You wouldn't have to use words like SUSPECT if you got an answer from Paul yourself.

Figure of speech. Besides I'm not interested in how someone else makes obvious errors. it is easy enough to do - I've done it many times.
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post #210 of 331 Old 02-25-2013, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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It is not your job at all. I merely pointed out that I have in the past informed vendors of their errors and was ignored for my trouble.


If you read my post again, you will find that I do not have any questions of the vendor. More specifically, I am very well aware of the problems in measuring inductances at the nanohenry and sub nanohenry level, so already know what was done incorrectly. Anybody who sells wires for a living but posts inaccurate measurements on the product should be advised of that fact.


I only have provided information which would make him a better and more informed vendor, but have no desire to hunt him down to correct his errors. Measurement of inductance at these levels is not easy for the un-initiated, my graphical content and equations can help anybody determine the accuracy of their test setup. Capacitance is in general, quite easily done at these levels, so half the info can be relied upon.

I point out the errors simply to address the issue of comparing apples to apples. Using bad data in a comparison is of no use.

jn
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