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post #1 of 49 Old 04-06-2013, 02:32 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Is it true that in an ideal world you would have all speakers set to large? Would that offer benefits over small settings? I'm talking big speakers with 10" woofers or bigger. Or would small still be the best option.

Pros and cons?
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post #2 of 49 Old 04-06-2013, 03:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

Is it true that in an ideal world you would have all speakers set to large? Would that offer benefits over small settings? I'm talking big speakers with 10" woofers or bigger. Or would small still be the best option.

Pros and cons?

Please read the blog in my sig (Small vs. Large). smile.gif

Cheers, Feri


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post #3 of 49 Old 04-06-2013, 03:59 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I read your sig and I understand it, but it does not answer my questions. I asked if you had large main speakers with 10" or larger woofers, would setting speakers to small still be the best option?

Otherwise in what scenario would you use the Large setting? Why would it not be a good idea to use the Large setting if your speakers are large enough to handle low bass properly?
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post #4 of 49 Old 04-06-2013, 04:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

I read your sig and I understand it, but it does not answer my questions. I asked if you had large main speakers with 10" or larger woofers, would setting speakers to small still be the best option?

I think it also answers your question. Speakers are always set for sound stage imaging while subwoofers are set for deep, smooth and even bass which usually never coinsides with the place where the speakers are. Google-in for "subwoofer crawl" to get acquainted with this know-how. On a second note the power amps of the AVR can be released from the "heavy lifting" job a separate powered subwoofer can do for you, regardless of the size of the woofers in the speakers.
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Otherwise in what scenario would you use the Large setting?

I know of no such scenario. smile.gif
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Why would it not be a good idea to use the Large setting if your speakers are large enough to handle low bass properly?

See above. smile.gif

Cheers, Feri


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post #5 of 49 Old 04-06-2013, 04:21 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf 
I think it also answers your question. Speakers are always set for sound stage imaging while subwoofers are set for deep, smooth and even bass which usually never coinsides with the place where the speakers are.

I have read that multiple sources of low bass can give a smoother response. Is that not true? I think Dr Earl Geddes proposes large mains in a HT. His work revolves around using as many LF sources as possible. I thought the more LF sources in a room the smoother the bass response would be.
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I know of no such scenario.

Yeah, you're not big into "large". smile.gif I would like other views on this as I don't think it's universal that small is the defacto option for all speakers in all rooms, is it? Nevermind, you'll probably answer with a "yes". biggrin.gif
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post #6 of 49 Old 04-06-2013, 04:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

I have read that multiple sources of low bass can give a smoother response. Is that not true? I think Dr Earl Geddes proposes large mains in a HT. His work revolves around using as many LF sources as possible. I thought the more LF sources in a room the smoother the bass response would be.
Yeah, you're not big into "large". smile.gif I would like other views on this as I don't think it's universal that small is the defacto option for all speakers in all rooms, is it? Nevermind, you'll probably answer with a "yes". biggrin.gif

Obviously you don't want to have 100 subwoofers in your room, eh? Think about it this way. At the low end of the audio spectrum the wavelengths of the soundd waves become comparable to room dimensions. At certain low frequencies you will have peaks (at certain points) and nulls/dips (at certain other points). Download a "room mode calculator", enter your room dmensions and see what frequencies are going to produce standing waves in your room.

BTW, wouldn't the best way to do this be to make your own experiment. Set your speakers to small and then to large and listen carefully. Do you have a subwoofer?

Cheers, Feri


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post #7 of 49 Old 04-06-2013, 05:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf 
BTW, wouldn't the best way to do this be to make your own experiment. Set your speakers to small and then to large and listen carefully. Do you have a subwoofer?

Yes, I have Polk RTI-A9 system and a Paradigm Sub12. From what I have gathered the more LF sources the better and that would include setting speakers to Large if they are capable. Unless I am wrong. Can you explain technically why that would be the wrong approach?
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post #8 of 49 Old 04-06-2013, 07:28 AM
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All of the LF signal should go to the sub, which is better and more efficient at playing those frequencies than your other speakers.
Need more LF? add another sub:)
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post #9 of 49 Old 04-06-2013, 10:52 AM
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I'll add another voice supporting the notion that it is almost always better to configure speakers to small and use bass management. The mains must be positioned for imaging, which is rarely optimal for bass response. Subs can be placed anywhere that works.
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post #10 of 49 Old 04-06-2013, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

Yes, I have Polk RTI-A9 system and a Paradigm Sub12. From what I have gathered the more LF sources the better and that would include setting speakers to Large if they are capable. Unless I am wrong. Can you explain technically why that would be the wrong approach?

Just how many threads are you going to bring up the same question as here http://www.avsforum.com/t/1466501/double-bass-and-bass-management? You don't like the answer that Ed Mullens or Craig John gave you?

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post #11 of 49 Old 04-06-2013, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

Is it true that in an ideal world you would have all speakers set to large?

If by ideal you mean that all spekers would have ideal response and dynamic range that extends to 0 Hz, then in that fantasy world all speakers might be set to large except for other considerations I'll raise below.
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Would that offer benefits over small settings? I'm talking big speakers with 10" woofers or bigger. Or would small still be the best option.

Your suggested criteria seems to be very narrow - just speaker diaphragm diameter.

There are other criteria that matter at least as much, such as linear diaphragm displacement and directivity, just to name two.
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post #12 of 49 Old 04-06-2013, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

I have read that multiple sources of low bass can give a smoother response. Is that not true? I think Dr Earl Geddes proposes large mains in a HT. His work revolves around using as many LF sources as possible. I thought the more LF sources in a room the smoother the bass response would be.
I believe it is true, and I recall Geddes recommending large mains, in order to provide additional bass sources in the room. I think this idea is worth exploring. However, I'm sure Geddes does not propose the rule: the more LF sources in a room the smoother the bass response. Rather, it's possible to get a smoother bass response with multiple LF sources, and measurement of the actual response together with some experimenting with positioning of the LF sources is part of Geddes' method. There is no guarantee that multiple LF sources will get you better bass, as there is no guarantee that it will get you worse bass, either (despite the dire warnings you sometimes hear about bass cancellation).

By the way, the Large classification for speakers doesn't have a lot to do with cone diameter. There are plenty of older front speakers with 10" or 12" woofers that have little response in the low bass octave 20-40Hz.

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post #13 of 49 Old 04-06-2013, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

Is it true that in an ideal world you would have all speakers set to large? Would that offer benefits over small settings? I'm talking big speakers with 10" woofers or bigger. Or would small still be the best option.

Pros and cons?
As arnyk indicates, yes, if cost and practicality were no object, then a full set of speakers capable of sub-20Hz response as well as very capable subwoofer(s) would be "ideal". Movie soundtracks are mixed with full-range main channels, intended for reproduction, primarily, in movie theaters. Very few, if any, movie theaters utilize bass management. Bass management is a compromise (and compromise does not necessarily imply inferiority) utilized in order to reproduce these soundtracks as best and as practically as possible in a home theater environment.

Do you understand all the benefits at the amplifiers, speakers and subwoofer(s), that the SMALL setting provides?

When you say you "have Polk RTI-A9 system", what does this mean? Are your surround speakers RTi-A9s? What is your center speaker?

It seems to me that your question(s) may be arising from an understandable conflict you might be having reconciling running your RTi-A9s with the SMALL setting.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #14 of 49 Old 04-06-2013, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

As arnyk indicates, yes, if cost and practicality were no object, then a full set of speakers capable of sub-20Hz response as well as very capable subwoofer(s) would be "ideal". Movie soundtracks are mixed with full-range main channels, intended for reproduction, primarily, in movie theaters. Very few, if any, movie theaters utilize bass management. Bass management is a compromise (and compromise does not necessarily imply inferiority) utilized in order to reproduce these soundtracks as best and as practically as possible in a home theater environment.

Do you understand all the benefits at the amplifiers, speakers and subwoofer(s), that the SMALL setting provides?

When you say you "have Polk RTI-A9 system", what does this mean? Are your surround speakers RTi-A9s? What is your center speaker?

It seems to me that your question(s) may be arising from an understandable conflict you might be having reconciling running your RTi-A9s with the SMALL setting.

+1.

And on a second note, we should not forget why bass management is ever possible. The phenomenon that our ears loose directionality of bass more or less below 80 Hz is a technical advantage here making it possible to place subwoofer(s) out in space where they perform best.

Cheers, Feri


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post #15 of 49 Old 04-06-2013, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I must apologise. I created a thread in the sub section about double bass and then it just transformed into a different topic. I shouldn't have created a separate thread for it, so sorry for that. The reason I said I had RTI-A9's was because they are capable of sub-30 Hz extension. 6 x (7") woofers total is a good deal of air movement I think, hence why I asked if speakers were large, if it would still be better if set to small.

I got the answer I was looking for which is an emphatic "yes!!!" biggrin.gif I am very happy with the explanations provided here and also by Ed and Craig, so no disrespect to anyone. I just made a poor error in judgment by creating two threads. I do have other questions on this, but I am not sure if I should continue in the other thread or here.
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post #16 of 49 Old 04-06-2013, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

I must apologise. I created a thread in the sub section about double bass and then it just transformed into a different topic. I shouldn't have created a separate thread for it, so sorry for that. The reason I said I had RTI-A9's was because they are capable of sub-30 Hz extension. 6 x (7") woofers total is a good deal of air movement I think, hence why I asked if speakers were large, if it would still be better if set to small.

I got the answer I was looking for which is an emphatic "yes!!!" biggrin.gif I am very happy with the explanations provided here and also by Ed and Craig, so no disrespect to anyone. I just made a poor error in judgment by creating two threads. I do have other questions on this, but I am not sure if I should continue in the other thread or here.

Once you comprehend the "small setting" please feel free to ask other questions. smile.gif

Cheers, Feri


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post #17 of 49 Old 04-06-2013, 03:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I understand the small setting now. smile.gif
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post #18 of 49 Old 04-06-2013, 03:18 PM
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I understand the small setting now. smile.gif

So far, so good! smile.gif

Cheers, Feri


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post #19 of 49 Old 04-06-2013, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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My question has to do with summing or cancellation of bass. In the Triad thread Paul Scarpelli said that if a speaker response is superimposed on to the subwoofer response you end up losing bass.
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Originally Posted by Paul Scarpelli 
A sealed and equalized subwoofer may have it's response curve tailored to be flat to 20 Hz, while a big set of main speakers may be flat to 40 Hz. Using them in tandem will sum a response that's weaker between 20 Hz and 40 Hz. You're better off letting the subwoofer handle all the bass duties.

I'm just trying to understand why this is. If hypothetically I had a 5 speakers that had a -3dB 40 Hz, set my processor to a 40 Hz low-pass, with a 24dB/octave and the subwoofer itself had a -3db of 30 Hz dialed in to 70hz, what can I expect from this set up? Huge cancellation? I asked this question in the other thread but I would be interested to know as my buddy has his system set up this way and he swears by it.
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post #20 of 49 Old 04-06-2013, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

My question has to do with summing or cancellation of bass. In the Triad thread Paul Scarpelli said that if a speaker response is superimposed on to the subwoofer response you end up losing bass.
I'm just trying to understand why this is. If hypothetically I had a 5 speakers that had a -3dB 40 Hz, set my processor to a 40 Hz low-pass, with a 24dB/octave and the subwoofer itself had a -3db of 30 Hz dialed in to 70hz, what can I expect from this set up? Huge cancellation? I asked this question in the other thread but I would be interested to know as my buddy has his system set up this way and he swears by it.

Don't be confused, please. You can only set one crossover frequency per speaker pair. You can not set a c/o for a given speaker to 40 Hz and a separte c/o for the sub at 70 Hz. General consensus is to set the c/o to 80 Hz coz that's the frequency where our ears loose directionality. If you'd like to play you may set the c/o to lower or higher values and make your own listening tests.

Which AVR do you have?

Cheers, Feri


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post #21 of 49 Old 04-06-2013, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

My question has to do with summing or cancellation of bass. In the Triad thread Paul Scarpelli said that if a speaker response is superimposed on to the subwoofer response you end up losing bass.
I'm just trying to understand why this is. If hypothetically I had a 5 speakers that had a -3dB 40 Hz, set my processor to a 40 Hz low-pass, with a 24dB/octave and the subwoofer itself had a -3db of 30 Hz dialed in to 70hz, what can I expect from this set up? Huge cancellation? I asked this question in the other thread but I would be interested to know as my buddy has his system set up this way and he swears by it.

the observation has exactly zero to do with interference between the two speakers. If you reproduce the range from say 40 to 80 Hz with the main speakers, they should be outputting exactly the amount of bass that was mixed by the mixers. If you simulteneously output the bass from 40 to 80 Hz with a sub, the range from 40 to 80 Hz is now playing up to 6 dB louder than it was mixed by the mixer because it's being reproduced two times.

Then below the mains' rolloff, the sub is now 3 or 6 dB quiter for the same input signal than the range from 40 to 80 because the range below 40 Hz is only being reproduced once.

To look at it without thinking in SPL or dB terms. from 40 to 70 you'd have 1 +1=2 and below 40 Hz you have 1+0=1.
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post #22 of 49 Old 04-06-2013, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

My question has to do with summing or cancellation of bass. In the Triad thread Paul Scarpelli said that if a speaker response is superimposed on to the subwoofer response you end up losing bass.
I'm just trying to understand why this is. If hypothetically I had a 5 speakers that had a -3dB 40 Hz, set my processor to a 40 Hz low-pass, with a 24dB/octave and the subwoofer itself had a -3db of 30 Hz dialed in to 70hz, what can I expect from this set up? Huge cancellation? I asked this question in the other thread but I would be interested to know as my buddy has his system set up this way and he swears by it.
If you were to set an AVR's crossover to 40Hz, the only overlap between the speakers and sub would be in the octave above and below that crossover setting, and that overlap is supposed to be there in order to provide a smooth transition between the subwoofer and speakers. That is what a crossover does.

And you wouldn't want to set the subwoofer's own low-pass to 70Hz. There is no reason to do this. You'd want to set that as high as possible or completely bypass it if your sub allows that. The AVR provides the proper low-pass to the bass-managed bass that is sent to the subwoofer. The LFE channel can contain info as high as 120Hz. You will truncate this info if you set the sub's low-pass to 70Hz. And you could also create undesirable issues if you "cascade" the AVR's low-pass filter and the subwoofer's low-pass filter like that.

If you wanted to configure a setup in the most "Geddes-like" way, this is how you would do it:

Connect the subwoofer to the AVR's front L/R channels either via the AVR's front channel pre-outs or, if you don't have those, via a speaker-level connection. Configure the AVR (or allow Audyssey or whatever autoCAL/EQ your AVR has to configure it) as having NO SUB (sub OFF or whatever your AVR calls it). Adjust the subwoofer's own low-pass to the front speakers' natural roll-off. You can do this by ear or with measurements, if you have the capability.

With this configuration, the LFE channel and any rerouted bass from any speakers set to SMALL will be mixed in mono and split into the front L/R channels. This mix of bass will then be spread across the sub and speakers at reproduction. The front speakers will reproduce that part of the front L/R channel bass + the LFE channel + the rerouted bass from any speakers set to SMALL, that they are capable of down to their low-end roll-off. Since its low-pass would be adjusted to the speaker's low-end roll-off, the subwoofer would take over and reproduce that part of the front L/R channel bass + the LFE channel + the rerouted bass from any speakers set to SMALL, below the speakers' low-end capability.

Bear in mind that many people here in these forums would strongly disagree with setting up a system this way. It goes against much of the conventional wisdom regarding the benefits of "normal" bass management. The front channel amplifiers would now be burdened with reproducing not only the bass of the full-range L/R channels but the full LFE channel bass and rerouted bass from any speakers set to SMALL, as well. Likewise, the front channel speakers would be asked to reproduce this same mix of bass, too. In relying upon the front speakers for so much of the low-end info's reproduction, you also remove some potential placement flexibility that a subwoofer (or subwoofers) affords.

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post #23 of 49 Old 04-07-2013, 01:43 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by sivadselim 
And you wouldn't want to set the subwoofer's own low-pass to 70Hz. There is no reason to do this. You'd want to set that as high as possible or completely bypass it if your sub allows that. The AVR provides the proper low-pass to the bass-managed bass that is sent to the subwoofer. The LFE channel can contain info as high as 120Hz. You will truncate this info if you set the sub's low-pass to 70Hz. And you could also create undesirable issues if you "cascade" the AVR's low-pass filter and the subwoofer's low-pass filter like that.

The example I gave you was my friends set up. He is passively crossing over to his sub it seems, so no crossover for the mains. If no crossover is used for the mains and he selects 70 Hz on the sub, does that mean all information from 70 Hz and up is lost?
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post #24 of 49 Old 04-07-2013, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

The example I gave you was my friends set up. He is passively crossing over to his sub it seems, so no crossover for the mains. If no crossover is used for the mains and he selects 70 Hz on the sub, does that mean all information from 70 Hz and up is lost?

Hey, you and your friend are completely confused on how Bass Management works. There is no such a thing like passive crossover! There is no such a thing that you select one crossover for speakers and another one for the sub. A crossover will cross over the LF contents from speakers to sub starting from the crossover frequency and down. Full stop.

The subwoofer channel, however has another signal path called LFE or the 0.1 channel recorded into the program material of a 5.1 movie sound track responsible for the Low Frequency Effects (rumblings, etc.). This signal is band limited to 120 Hz by the recording engineers.

Finally the redirected bass and the LFE of the 0.1 channel are summed by the AVR before the signal reaches the subwoofer output.

Hope this helps. smile.gif

Cheers, Feri


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post #25 of 49 Old 04-07-2013, 03:23 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by mogorf 
Hey, you and your friend are completely confused on how Bass Management works. There is no such a thing like passive crossover! There is no such a thing that you select one crossover for speakers and another one for the sub. A crossover will cross over the LF contents from speakers to sub starting from the crossover frequency and down. Full stop.

He is letting his speakers roll-off, using no crossover in the amp. That is what I mean by passively crossing over! He isn't using a crossover on any channel. He is using 70 Hz as the minimum crossover at the back of the sub (lowest it will go). He is using a 40 hz low pass on the processor because his speakers apparently have a 40 Hz - 3 dB.

Please don't be mean to me. smile.gif I'm not a rocket scientist or that clued up on this.
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Its' best to bypass the crossover on the sub, either by maxing the setting or using the bypass switch if equipped.
Set the crossover at the amp.
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Originally Posted by bradman View Post

Its' best to bypass the crossover on the sub, either by maxing the setting or using the bypass switch if equipped.
Set the crossover at the amp.

It's not a crossover on the sub, it's an LPF (Low Pass Filter)!!!!

Cheers, Feri


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post #28 of 49 Old 04-07-2013, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

The example I gave you was my friends set up. He is passively crossing over to his sub it seems, so no crossover for the mains. If no crossover is used for the mains and he selects 70 Hz on the sub, does that mean all information from 70 Hz and up is lost?
If all of the speakers are set to LARGE, then the only thing being routed to the subwoofer is the LFE channel. The LFE channel can contain info as high as 120Hz. So, yes, if the sub's low-pass filter is set to 70Hz, then the LFE channel would be unnecessarily truncated. If this is the case (all speakers set to LARGE), and the subwoofer is connected conventionally, to the AVR's subwoofer pre-out, there is really no good reason to set the subwoofer's low-pass to 70Hz.

If any of the other speakers are set to SMALL with a higher crossover than 70Hz and/or a double bass (LFE+Main, Plus, etc.) setting is being used with a higher low-pass than 70Hz, then any of that bass-managed bass would be truncated by the subwoofer's 70Hz low-pass setting as well.

Again, regardless of what bass management settings are being used for the speakers, the subwoofer's own internal low-pass filter should be set as high as possible or bypassed altogether if the subwoofer allows for this. The AVR provides the proper low-pass, when needed, to the info that is sent to the subwoofer.

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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

It's not a crossover on the sub, it's an LPF (Low Pass Filter)!!!!
In the context of what he posted, he probably knows this. Common "mistake".

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Originally Posted by sivadselim 
If all his speakers are set to LARGE, then the only thing beinbg routed to the subwoofer is the LFE channel. The LFE channel can contain info as high as 120Hz. So, yes, if the sub's low-pass filter is set to 70Hz, then the LFE channel wqould be unnecessarily truncated. If this is the case (all speakers set to LARGE), and the subwoofer is connected conventionally, to the AVR's subwoofer pre-out, there is really no good reason to set the subwoofer's low-pass to 70Hz.

He tells me he has a low pass filter set in his processor at 40 hz. I imagine this is for the sub. So low bass set to 40 hz and sub LPF set to 70 hz which is the minimum setting. This doesn't sound like a good set up method. Besides the LFE signal being thrown away above 70 Hz wouldn't there also be the signal truncated above 40 hz because of the LFP in the processor set to 40 Hz (24 dB/octave)?
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