Up Grade Power Cord ???????? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 419 Old 04-20-2013, 10:16 PM
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Not okay with strong resistance with lambs who never have tried on their own nor have tried end to end on their own which takes time.......Is that wrong? Proof goes both ways...

Incredible basing your posts on assumptions of persons you haven't the foggiest about? Why ffs should I show boutique cables when ten years ago after tests between cables (LS and IC) I decided that the further pursuit of that route was a waste of time and money.

You are advocating - let me repeat - a pissing contest without value. I have to assume from reading your posts that you are possessed of a modicum of intelligence, so I would expect as a (as you claim) leader or semi leader in some company that you are familiar with the principle of blinded testing, avoiding bias that you seem to prefer in order to strut your stuff and "trouncing" your opponent.

This quest for fidelity is not contest between stuff based on cost and personal preferences but based on technical competence of the equipment and testing procedures that avoid bias to get at what might be considered "truth" by either supporting or falsifying the null-hypothesis that differences between equipment that measures similarly are not discernible.
Also that any cable sufficient to conduct a low frequency audio signal within certain parameters that are known not to influence the transmission of audio frequency signal is not distinguishable from another that transmits within those parameters.

There is enough literature to tell me without experiencing it myself that putting my hand on a hot plate is going to hurt and has a cost for my health, the same way I do not after reading a multitude of tests regarding audio equipment necessarily have to conduct those tests myself in order to convince me that the majority of audiophile claims pertaining to electronics and cables are unfounded.

I do not have to repeat the tests of the large hadron collider myself to be convinced after reading of the claims and counterclaims that the Higgs boson has been measured and accept the claims by experts that are based on evidence, neither do I have to re-experience Darwin's Galapagos travels to know that the theory of evolution is based on sound principles after over 100 years of research and observational, genetic and paleontological evidence - as opposed to the claims made in audiophile circles, a word that to me is more connected with audio-phoolishness (wasting money on products either known to be nonsense, or lacking even a hypothetical base for the claims made) than the pursuit of fidelity in audio reproduction.
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post #92 of 419 Old 04-20-2013, 10:30 PM
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Can someone point me to any null tests on power cables? The AVS collective riposte to DTCD is convincing but it is based on some assumptions about amp power behavior. Has anyone tested these assumptions across varying real world conditions?

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post #93 of 419 Old 04-20-2013, 11:06 PM
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I wonder how many magic cable enthusiasts have tested the romex, outlets and mass- produced breakers or even older fuse boxes in their homes along with the weathered pole- mounted transformers at the end of miles of aerial cable and multiple substations between the generator and their homes.

I would imagine they feel certain that 6ft of magic cable can create or recreate what was in the studio and erase all the acoustic imaging lost by the studio cables, connectors processors etc.
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post #94 of 419 Old 04-20-2013, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.SoftDome View Post

Wanna come north for an AVS FUN experiment?

Most of us in the AVS L.A. Home Theater group are using stock power cords and Monoprice/Blue Jeans cabling-are you available to come down south and enlighten us on the benefits of using these aftermarket products?
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post #95 of 419 Old 04-20-2013, 11:15 PM
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Can someone point me to any null tests on power cables

I do not know of any myself; considering the nonsensical nature of such an undertaking of testing some claim that is valid only in the imagination of a few deluded, without even the least hypothetical basis or any physical measurable evidence that powercords would make an audible difference I would actually expect nobody wasting his or her time to test the null hypothesis.
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post #96 of 419 Old 04-20-2013, 11:19 PM
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More:http://www.wireworldaudio.com/ProdLit/WCT_WP_Wave.pdf

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post #97 of 419 Old 04-20-2013, 11:21 PM
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There was also a mention of Furman doing some null or difference tests on their power conditioners in a recent hom theater geeks blog post

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post #98 of 419 Old 04-20-2013, 11:22 PM
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Gliimie...They don't care about testing because they perceive a positive difference!

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post #99 of 419 Old 04-20-2013, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

More:http://www.wireworldaudio.com/ProdLit/WCT_WP_Wave.pdf

Do you even know the difference between accredited test data and advertising bunk? "our USB cable sounds better than theirs". On a packetized compressed data stream that is encoded with audio signals? Pray tell how is that possible? Oh, I see, because the cable maker says so!

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post #100 of 419 Old 04-20-2013, 11:37 PM
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actually less would have been more, not linking to the obviously totally disinterested "testing" in-house with a graph that purports to show exactly what?
The scale is even at 150% enlargement unreadable, showing an analog waveform superimposed on an error signal?
Quote:
By subtracting
the music waveform created
with a cable from the
waveform created with no
cable, the exact waveform
error caused by the cable is
revealed.

I find that statement beneath contempt trying to insult the intelligence of any even mildly skeptical reader, as the so called "differences" have no reference point as to equipment used to decode nd measure, what standard cable used, actual scale of "error", significance of "error" etc. The typical snake oil tricks only the willing fall for.

Why am I always reminded of religion when participating in discussions with those calling themselves "audiophiles"? The same abandonment of critical thinking that permits acceptance of the most ludicrous claims imaginable.
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post #101 of 419 Old 04-21-2013, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by kraut View Post

actually less would have been more, not linking to the obviously totally disinterested "testing" in-house with a graph that purports to show exactly what?
The scale is even at 150% enlargement unreadable, showing an analog waveform superimposed on an error signal?
I find that statement beneath contempt trying to insult the intelligence of any even mildly skeptical reader, as the so called "differences" have no reference point as to equipment used to decode nd measure, what standard cable used, actual scale of "error", significance of "error" etc. The typical snake oil tricks only the willing fall for.

Why am I always reminded of religion when participating in discussions with those calling themselves "audiophiles"? The same abandonment of critical thinking that permits acceptance of the most ludicrous claims imaginable.
You should be careful insulting religion in your petty little cable discussion.

No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!
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post #102 of 419 Old 04-21-2013, 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

You should be careful insulting religion in your petty little cable discussion.


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post #103 of 419 Old 04-21-2013, 01:31 AM
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You have posted nothing in this thread but go out of your way to make a point of insulting religion. That says a great deal about your character.

No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!
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post #104 of 419 Old 04-21-2013, 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

More:http://www.wireworldaudio.com/ProdLit/WCT_WP_Wave.pdf
God, what bunk!

Are they trying to tell us that their cables make the zeros more zero-ey and the ones more one-ey? I know some people believe this stuff, however absurd, almost like a religion. wink.gif

Again, geared toward people who don't know what it is that they are reading. Hear is an example:
Quote:
Another source of waveform errors in cables is the interaction of conductors and insulation materials, which produces a form of electrostatic interference called triboelectric noise.
Triboelectric noise is the noise caused when mechanical changes are induced into cable while it is in use, such as the flexing in a guitar cable. How is that relevant to a USB cable? They are simply betting that the reader will have no idea what Triboelectric noise is.
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post #105 of 419 Old 04-21-2013, 01:45 AM
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Has anyone tested these assumptions across varying real world conditions?
Whilst not exactly what you're looking for, here is a signal and mains current waveform of a Behringer NU6000 being tested and delivering 1.8kW per channel into 4R at 31Hz. Peak current charging pulses are 80A, but the average would be a fraction of that.

NU600031Hzburst4Ohms2CH.jpg

Same amp with 1160W/ch into 8R. Scale on both is 50A/div.

NU600031Hzburst8Ohms.jpg

I can't think of a home system that would ever deliver that sort of power into the L/R on peaks so scale it back by an appropriate factor, say 10x and you might get close to what a home amp may be drawing from the mains supply. Then think about what the average CDP, preamp etc would draw and scale that back by a factor of >10 (current waveshape would be similar) and the Shamyata claims can easily be seen for the crock that they are.
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post #106 of 419 Old 04-21-2013, 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr.SoftDome View Post

Just for once, I would love to see pictures of a zealot with upgraded connects, power cords and speaker cables.
The zealots are the ones with the expensive and useless toys that they like to loudly and shrilly justify in the face of no actual evidence of their efficacy.

Like Kraut states in his post following the one of your I'm quoting, some of us have done this testing and have no need to repeat it without a good reason to, let alone because some unknown on a forum says to. If someone presents some solid theory or evidence that any cable will have a repeatable audible effect on a system or some part of it because of some factor not heretofore known or understood, I might be interested in investigating. I'd also be happy to change my opinion of cable effects once the claims were verified. However, in nearly 30 years in audio as a hobby, and almost as long in various analogue or digital electronics on a professional basis, I have never seen any verifiable evidence of such. 'I said I hear it' does not constitute any form of evidence, at least until you show you can do it with biases removed, ie DBT, which is why I specifically asked you about this earlier today.
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Proof/testing goes both ways...
That's where you're wrong; it goes one way only. It is up to the claimant to provide proof, especially where that goes against well understood and explored electrical engineering principles and theory, which have been proven over a century.
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Stick your EE book up your ass
I would politely suggest removing your head from yours, and pick up some theory on EE. The NEETS course provided by the USN is online and free and would be a good place to start. Once you have a solid grasp of how electrical engineering actually works, it seems much less like magic, a la Clarke's Third Law. Most people have such a rudimentary undertanding of how even basic appliance work in terms of basic principles that the Third Law applies to them, and as such are liable to believe any sort of malarkey tossed at them, especially if it contains a smattering of somewhat reasonable sounding technobabble.
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post #107 of 419 Old 04-21-2013, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Rutgar View Post

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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

OK, but Wall Street does not care about the status quo where there's money to be made. Explain why the serious investment community has not jumped on this stuff?

Wall Street? I don't think very many high-end audio companies are publicly traded. Most are small 'mom & pop' operations.

Some years back it was pretty obvious that Noel Lee wanted to take Monster Cable public. He arranged for Forbes magazine to do an article on his company and its dealers. There isn't a word in the article that I can point to that would prove that the Forbes writers were 100% aware of the nature of the business but I think so. Quoting the article gave me plenty of ammunition for dealing with magic cable proponents. This is a brief extract of comments from that article:

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/1998/1228/6214066a_print.html

For money, the origional text is here:

http://business.highbeam.com/392705/article-1G1-53412719/selling-sizzle-sizzle

"
$100 stereo cable is something like undercoating on a car. To move the product, you have to motivate the salesman. Watch how Noel Lee does that.

TO ENCOURAGE audio salesmen to push its costly stereo cables, 12 times a year Monster Cable flies a dozen or so top producers from stores around the country to all-expenses-paid weekends at places like the Napa Valley, Hawaii and Germany.

Founder, chairman and sole owner Noel Lee even lets the star salespeople zoom around in his 13 sports cars, including a $200,000 Ferrari.

Lee needs good salespeople because his product requires lots and lots of selling. Buy a $400 stereo from the Good Guys in …"

This article gives some insights into how Monster is scaring up money these days:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielnyegriffiths/2012/01/13/monster-beats-dre/
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post #108 of 419 Old 04-21-2013, 06:33 AM
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Sorry. But I would not consider Monster Cable 'High End'.
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post #109 of 419 Old 04-21-2013, 07:02 AM
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I stumbled across a pre-internet Monster RCA cable the other day and had a good laugh at the arrows indicating proper direction of signal.

Since religion was brought it's up to a troublemaker like me to drag the second-most zealot crowd in (nope, not the NRA), which should convince snake oil proponents to back off. If power cables (or rather any cable) made any difference whatsoever Apple computers would have developed or stolen a patent long ago. Steve Jobs, the ultimate entrepreneur, marketing genius and snake oil salesman wouldn't have let this pass him up.

Why have proponents of high end power cords not begun to explain how these cables address improvement of their systems despite the miles of cable from power company to and through their homes? It's been mentioned many times, nobody has touched it. A Macdonald burger doesn't transform into filet mignon just because you eat it with silver utensils, so goes it with cords.

There's a brilliant thread in the AVS archives, more entertaining than a George Carlin routine, stating that there are significant benefits to our perception of audio quality by changing out our outlet covers and the screw that holds them in place. I remember bookmarking and following it, laughing at its ridiculousness even then, back when I was green. While there are many similarly nutty threads convincing us that the copper we use is crap, this one is slowly reaching #2 on the bull**** meter.

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post #110 of 419 Old 04-21-2013, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

Do you even know the difference between accredited test data and advertising bunk? "our USB cable sounds better than theirs". On a packetized compressed data stream that is encoded with audio signals? Pray tell how is that possible? Oh, I see, because the cable maker says so!
Yes of course. I wonder what test they ran on the cable to get those differences? Seems like another example, similar to Shunyata, where some difference has been measured but it has no relationship to the way the cable would be used in real life.

Lest everyone forget I do not buy into this stuff however it does seem some aspects of power cable makeup can make a difference: gauge for example with large amplifiers and subwoofers?

What about twisting rate of individual conductors within the cable? http://www.middleatlantic.com/power/iec.htm

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post #111 of 419 Old 04-21-2013, 08:32 AM
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Don't you think it would be wise for the power cord to be UL tested and listed?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #112 of 419 Old 04-21-2013, 09:09 AM
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You should be careful insulting religion in your petty little cable discussion.

And you might - somewhere else - explain why any religion deserves respect. Any more than the unfounded beliefs in cable "sound", alien abductions etc.

BTW - I am a pastafarian and might become a minister of: http://www.venganza.org/, praise his noodly appendages. Do not make light of my belief.
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post #113 of 419 Old 04-21-2013, 09:34 AM
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Sorry. But I would not consider Monster Cable 'High End'.

I can see that. Kinda ironic, wouldn't you say?

Please list the reasons why you do not consider Monster Cable 'High End'.
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post #114 of 419 Old 04-21-2013, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

There was also a mention of Furman doing some null or difference tests on their power conditioners in a recent hom theater geeks blog post

Please be careful to not fall into the trap of believing that just because there is a measurable difference that there is an audible difference.
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post #115 of 419 Old 04-21-2013, 10:02 AM
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You have posted nothing in this thread but go out of your way to make a point of insulting religion. That says a great deal about your character.

Ummm, I've done nothing of the sort. I'm just pointing out where this thread is going which has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with arguing on the Internet. You on the other hand have resorted to name calling, personal attacks, and making snap judgements of people.
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post #116 of 419 Old 04-21-2013, 10:25 AM
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Appologies for the heated comments last night. It's a very controversial topic to discuss.
I can understand both sides of the fence and I still do belief it is something you need to try yourself and form your own opinions.....

Rick

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post #117 of 419 Old 04-21-2013, 10:41 AM
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What about twisting rate of individual conductors within the cable? http://www.middleatlantic.com/power/iec.htm

And how much do the Mid Atlantic cables cost? 5-10 bucks? Plus their data is credible.

Also note that the twisting is just one of the selling attributes. They also tout the lengths available, plug configurations, color coding, etc. IOW, they aren't making a big deal out of the twisting. This is an example of how a professional products company does business.

All they are suggesting is their cables radiate less of a field. They aren't promising to deepen your blacks on an HDMI display!

P.S. Most power cord wire stock is twisted anyway. Not to the degree as the Mid-Atlantic cords however. The reason I think is simply geometry and to get a nice round packaging so the cord is more flexible.

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post #118 of 419 Old 04-21-2013, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I can see that. Kinda ironic, wouldn't you say?

Please list the reasons why you do not consider Monster Cable 'High End'.

I tend agree with Rutgar. Many of their cables are mid priced compared to the mom & pop manufactures.

Still this does not mean I condone their practices. They are still a bunch of charlatans for sure. An excellent example being that dryer cord a few posts back. But as in my example it's $40. A plain old dryer cord as probably about $10-15 at Home Depot. So it's not a huge difference. Now if Shunyata would offer a dryer cord I have no doubt it would cost at least $2000

P.S. I noted the Monster dryer cord is now UL / CSA listed. It was not when first introduced because I looked. I wonder what prompted Monster to get it listed?

I'll speculate their legal department as well as the many big box stores. I will admit there is not much risk of fire from a power cord on a CD player. But a dryer with a 30a 240v feed is prime for melting the cord if something goes wrong. Too much liability for Best Buy and Circuit City at the time to assume.

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post #119 of 419 Old 04-21-2013, 11:41 AM
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Ummm, I've done nothing of the sort. I'm just pointing out where this thread is going which has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with arguing on the Internet. You on the other hand have resorted to name calling, personal attacks, and making snap judgements of people.
You edited your post. Which only reinforces what I said about you having bad character. And the fact that you try to manipulate and defend that position only makes it worse.

No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!
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post #120 of 419 Old 04-21-2013, 11:47 AM
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Please be careful to not fall into the trap of believing that just because there is a measurable difference that there is an audible difference.
Fully agree, I was going to mention that when Ethan mentioned his null tests. Same with acoustics as well. Some things can be measured but have no perceivable effect.

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