Up Grade Power Cord ???????? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 419 Old 04-23-2013, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr.SoftDome View Post

What a load of crap response. Seriously. And I think little yellow lab you have no scenarios to share... We are discussing cables. What have you owned/ tried and rejected? Why is that so hard or offending to answer? I don't get it but hey I am the wrong one here ...My darn rats nest pictured earlier ummm at least fact.

If I am such the inexperienced audio guy as you say, what would an expert like you have purchased over Dynaudio, Classe or Simaudio? I will be sure to follow your lead next time...

Rick

Its not hard for an answer its rather simple. physics, and not one of these snake oil salesmen have ever beat it. One of the worst offenders and liars and snake oil sellers is PSAudio.

What cable would I choose as a audio pro? The one that gets the job done the cheapest and best built as far as ends, solder etc. It might be Whirlwind it might be canare and it might be my home made.
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post #182 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

If I did a sighted comparison between two power cords and heard a difference, I would be smart enough to realize that the difference I heard was likely due to me being an unreliable piece of test equipment.

For those who claim to have heard a difference - and that it's real - how do you know it was from the power cord and not from you sitting in a slightly different position (even just moving your head a quarter of an inch). Or maybe somebody moved a pillow on the couch, which would have a bigger effect than swapping the power cord would. Or maybe the temperature changed slightly. Or maybe your mood did.

These are all insights that many of us had to experience and recognize for ourselves by doing a ton of DBTs relating to issues like ower amplfiers and CD players.

It is a two stage problem:

(1) Why is it that it is so hard to hear such easily measured performance differences? (Power amplifiers and DACs)

(2) Why are people paying so much money to purportedly address cable performance issues that aren't even measurable?

And to clarify (2) it is easy to measure parameter differences among cables, but it is far more difficult to measure them actually changing system performance.

This shows up in this article:

https://passlabs.com/articles/speaker-cables-science-or-snake-oil

Pass could find parameter differences among cables (e.g. figure 2), but struggled to find actual system performance differences. Note that there are graphs of system performance differences, but AFAIK they have no actual audio systems or components attached to them.
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post #183 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

That's a big ol' bag of FALSE. I design and test audio equipment for a living. I'm an EE. I have tested equipment with more power cords than you can imagine. Never once did I find a measurable difference. The lab at my previous company had a closet with literally hundreds of different power cords - different manufacturers, different gauges, lengths, etc. The only thing needed is to pick the proper length and gauge for the application.

Even our $100k audio and video test equipment comes with stock power cables. Even our ultra-low-noise satcomm equipment used stock power cords.

Excellent. A few questions if I may.

1. Are you required to bond all chassis to safety ground to meet code?
2. Are you forced to design equipment with single ended line level inputs? If so, how do you deal with any ground currents caused by the safety bond loops.
3. If you use differential inputs, how do you deal with the pin 1 problem?
4. For either scenario, have you controlled the ground current path within the chassis?

Audio power amps:

5. For the extremely low signal voltage levels at the input differential pair, how do you control magfield intrusion at the emitter/base loop (or whatever actives you choose there, be it discretes or integrated circuits).
6. For the feedback divider/dc servo reference ground, are you using star grounding techniques or do you tie it directly at the input differential pair reference point?
7. For all internal star grounds, how do you prevent magfield coupling between line, supply bridge/cap, supply rails, transformer, and the low level ground star wires?

Do you apply EMC techniques to your designs. As in, Tom Van Doren, or Horace Ott?

As you may have noticed, all of my questions relate to the actual fact that power cords can indeed alter the system. For all the bantering about in this thread, saying science and engineering proves they can't is a bunch of malarky. It's disgusting that any credible EE would claim such.

Audibility is a different story. I do not make claims either way. I have experienced it of course, but that is specific to my cords, my system, and me. It cannot simply be applied elsewhere.



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post #184 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 06:54 AM
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Here's my favorite from PS Audio. There website states (my bold):
"The PerfectWave AC12 is the best sounding power cable we’ve made in the last decade. The AC12 is an 8 gauge cable constructed with pure PCOCC copper in multiple gauges and shapes. Inside the AC12 are three hollow PCOCC conductors for the treble regions, one massive PCOCC rectangular conductor for the midrange and multiple gauges of PCOCC bundled together for the bass. Equipment powered with an AC12 enjoy a significant improvement in sound quality over any cable we’ve tried."
http://www.psaudio.com/shop/ac12-power-cable/

Back in April of 2006, PS Audio wrote this about their new "True Single Crystal Copper Power Cord" (I know this because I posted about it here on AVS after getting their monthly email, and the link is no longer available, but I'm posting it anyway.:
"You really need to hear the performance of these cables to understand what I am writing about. Simply stunning. Far more open and airy than the original xStreams, which set the standard until now. ...Bottom line, regardless of what you now own for a power cable, these need to replace it. They are that good. "
http://www.psaudio.com/newsletters/4-06.asp

So 7 years ago this guy created a cable that he said was SO GOOD, that regardless what you use for a power cable it needs to be replaced. Today, he now is making the "best sounding power cable in the last decade". Too bad for all those suckers who bought True Single Crystal Copper Power Cord, when the best was yet to come.

Why is there NO perfect equipment, only compromises?
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post #185 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 06:57 AM
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As you may have noticed, all of my questions relate to the actual fact that power cords can indeed alter the system


Unless I miss something implied in your post: You are adressing cabling practices and grounding, but what do your question have to do with the construction of any of the mentioned boutique cables?
Did any of the EE's here - assuming they are such - speak to the point that cabling practices do not have an influence on the operating of amps especially in environments where a host of audio equipment is connected?
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post #186 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by kraut View Post

Unless I miss something implied in your post: You are adressing cabling practices and grounding, but what do your question have to do with the construction of any of the mentioned boutique cables?
The geometry of the power cord, it's characteristic impedance, the contact resistances of the grounding conductor at both ends, how it is positioned with respect to all other cables and equipment, and most importantly, how susceptible the equipment design and layout is to externally and internally generated ground loop currents are all part of the power cord equation.
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Originally Posted by kraut View Post

Did any of the EE's here - assuming they are such - speak to the point that cabling practices do not have an influence on the operating of amps especially in environments where a host of audio equipment is connected?
How does one separate "cabling practices" from the environment? This thread is all about how power cords can or cannot influence the end use equipment. They can, and they do.

Most of the garbage scientific reasons spouted by the manu's are just that. Garbage.

But the claim that they cannot ever, is also garbage.

The real question is one of level of effect.

John

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post #187 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

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Originally Posted by kraut View Post

Unless I miss something implied in your post: You are adressing cabling practices and grounding, but what do your question have to do with the construction of any of the mentioned boutique cables?
The geometry of the power cord, it's characteristic impedance, the contact resistances of the grounding conductor at both ends, how it is positioned with respect to all other cables and equipment, and most importantly, how susceptible the equipment design and layout is to externally and internally generated ground loop currents are all part of the power cord equation.
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Originally Posted by kraut View Post

Did any of the EE's here - assuming they are such - speak to the point that cabling practices do not have an influence on the operating of amps especially in environments where a host of audio equipment is connected?[/quote
How does one separate "cabling practices" from the environment? This thread is all about how power cords can or cannot influence the end use equipment. They can, and they do.

Most of the garbage scientific reasons spouted by the manu's are just that. Garbage.

But the claim that they cannot ever, is also garbage.

The real question is one of level of effect.

There's the beef. It is all about quantification. Show me a reasonable power cord that adds or subtracts enough dB of clean power output from a power amp or AVR to make an audible difference.
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post #188 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

There's the beef. It is all about quantification. Show me a reasonable power cord that adds or subtracts enough dB of clean power output from a power amp or AVR to make an audible difference.
The discussion I am having has nothing to do with the absolute maximum power output of the system.

It is about a change in the system's sound as a result of artifacts caused by equipment which has not been designed with adequate EMC engineering.

jn

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post #189 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

There's the beef. It is all about quantification. Show me a reasonable power cord that adds or subtracts enough dB of clean power output from a power amp or AVR to make an audible difference.
The discussion I am having has nothing to do with the absolute maximum power output of the system.

It is about a change in the system's sound as a result of artifacts caused by equipment which has not been designed with adequate EMC engineering.

Please provide a real world example of such a thing, some current mainstream audio product, make and model along with technical documentation of the problem.
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post #190 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Please provide a real world example of such a thing, some current mainstream audio product, make and model along with technical documentation of the problem.

That's simple.

Look up "Pin 1 problem" for a start. Differential input balanced, yet still picking up hum and noise.

And that's the PRO world. Still full of equipment which has little EMC design.

Now, a simple technical question to you.

I have a stereo amp which has a bonded chassis and the input resistance is 10Kohms.

I have a preamp which has a bonded chassis.

I have two IC's between the two.

When the left channel drives 1 volt peak within the left IC with it's resulting 100 uAmp peak signal current flowing within the core of the left coax...answer me this...

What is the path of the return current?

Keep in mind, a coax only works when the core and shield currents are equal and opposite.

This is a very significant question.

John

Arny. I am not a simple newbie who is cowed by your standard replies. I recommend more reasonable queries.

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post #191 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by edfowler View Post

After much interest in following this thread I decided to order a couple more power cords for my set up. I ordered MAC HC PC for my cdp and a MAC Burly to replace the NRG 5 on my receiver.
I am confident the HC will provide a marked improvement over the stock cord but I am a little nervous that, even though the Burly has received a lot of accolades, the Burly might not provide as much bang for the buck over the NRG 5. The NRG 5 is an excellent cord that provides a huge improvement over even other aftermarket cords and the Burly cost the most of any of my previous cord purchases.
At least MAC provides a thirty day money back guarantee if I don't like any of his cables no questions asked so I can return the Burly if it doesn't live up to its reviews
I will post my impressions of the cords once I get them in my system if you like Rick

You DID get proper Wall Outlets and Cover Plates to plug your magic cables into, right?

RIGHT?
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post #192 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 10:45 AM
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Ha ha
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post #193 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

The geometry of the power cord, it's characteristic impedance, the contact resistances of the grounding conductor at both ends, how it is positioned with respect to all other cables and equipment, and most importantly, how susceptible the equipment design and layout is to externally and internally generated ground loop currents are all part of the power cord equation.
How does one separate "cabling practices" from the environment? This thread is all about how power cords can or cannot influence the end use equipment. They can, and they do.
John

Yes we have had this discussion many times before and what you say is most correct. However do you think any of these boutique power cords are specifically designed to the parameters you speak of? This is way, way, over the heads of most audiophile cable makers.

Furthermore, based what you accurately state, a fancy Tiffany power cord could actually make these problems worse than a stock PC power supply cord couldn't it?

OK, I agree a power cord can make a difference, measurable with lab grade equipment for sure. Audible? Well that's questionable and highly system specific. But what I have not EVER seen is clear cut proof these Tiffany cords make any positive benefit based on their price. If they do, as quite possible based on the theory you outlined, it's purely by accident.

The bottom line for me is these cable shops promoted by some here are just a bunch of charlatans and shysters!

And it's still fact that the entertainment industry's technical facilities that produce the material consumers watch and listen to do not embrace these audiophile cable ideas. That I am sure as I have been in this business for 30 years. As for research labs and highly sensitive measurement equipment I don't know but I suspect they don't by into this hype either.

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post #194 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 12:29 PM
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Yes we have had this discussion many times before and what you say is most correct. However do you think any of these boutique power cords are specifically designed to the parameters you speak of? This is way, way, over the heads of most audiophile cable makers.

I believe that there is very little chance that aftermarket power cord manufacturers understand what I've stated, and even if they do, they also have little chance of knowing what to do to a power cord geometry to attack a specific issue. I have in the past discussed this specific thing with one aftermarket cord manufacturer, but have not followed his product line at all, so cannot say what he's done.
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Furthermore, based what you accurately state, a fancy Tiffany power cord could actually make these problems worse than a stock PC power supply cord couldn't it?
Absolutely. If there is a systemic problem which makes the setup susceptible to a line cord, just tossing some oddball cord at it is total randonmess.
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I agree a power cord can make a difference, measurable with lab grade equipment for sure. Audible? Well that's questionable and highly system specific.
NO. That is the basis for most EE's tossing the premise aside...that lab grade equipment cannot see it. Think about it...how many lab grade pieces of test equipment drive the DUT single ended, where the DUT and the test gear both bond to ground? Lab equip is designed to be impervious to grounding. Consumer equipment...not necessarily.
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But what I have not EVER seen is clear cut proof these Tiffany cords make any positive benefit based on their price. If they do, as quite possible based on the theory you outlined, it's purely by accident.

The bottom line for me is these cable shops promoted by some here are just a bunch of charlatans and shysters!

There is no IEEE standard for testing equipment to full blown EMC based current control. Accidents, or better stated, serendipity, is what would make one cord sound better than another in a specific system.

For the most part, those we speak of don't drive Bentley's.. They are trying to use "cord magic" to fix system problems. The engineering community at large has never really addressed the problem, so the problem exists. Vendors try to fix the problem. And most just try to pay the bills.

I have a novel idea. Instead of attacking the vendors, wouldn't it be nice to actually attack the problem? Just a thought.

jn

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post #195 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Please provide a real world example of such a thing, some current mainstream audio product, make and model along with technical documentation of the problem.

That's simple.

Look up "Pin 1 problem" for a start. Differential input balanced, yet still picking up hum and noise.

None of the papers I found on "The Pin 1 problem" were written in this century or even this millenium. None of them reference what I asked for, being some current mainstream audio product, make and model along with technical documentation of the problem.

Furthermore, none of them reference the topic of this thread, which is power cords.

The post I'm replying to looks like just another red herring argument. One that is irrelevant to the current discussion, and one that relates to audio as it was in the previous millennium.
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post #196 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 12:55 PM
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None of the papers I found on "The Pin 1 problem" were written in this century or even this millenium. None of them reference what I asked for, being some current mainstream audio product, make and model along with technical documentation of the problem.

Furthermore, none of them reference the topic of this thread, which is power cords.

The post I'm replying to looks like just another red herring argument. One that is irrelevant to the current discussion, and one that relates to audio as it was in the previous millennium.

Rather disingenuous, eh arny?? You aren't fooling anybody with your schtick. It's old, it's tired, it only works on the ill informed.. Stating something is irrelevant doesn't make it so....wishful thinking.

I guess Bill Whitlock must be what, 120 years old at least? Try a better search engine.

When you are ready to actually discuss engineering and technical stuff, let me know. I'm ready.

If you are incapable of discussing Electromagnetic Compatibility issues, or Electromagnetic field theory, just say so...don't pretend you understand..everybody sees through that.

jn
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post #197 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post


Furthermore, none of them reference the topic of this thread, which is power cords.

The post I'm replying to looks like just another red herring argument. One that is irrelevant to the current discussion, and one that relates to audio as it was in the previous millennium.

YO.....arny..

You never answered the question. I'll repeat it.

A stereo with two unbalanced IC's and two bonded chassis components...where is the return current for the left channel IC??


I'll give you a hint, it's an EMC current control thing..

If you believe the left channel signal return is via the left channel braid, then you guessed wrong. The return current will go via the path with the lowest reactance.

Where pray tell, is the lowest reactance path at 500 hz, or 1Khz, or even 5 Khz???

Well golly gee, it's the safety bonds...the line cords..

You know, those thingy's we are talking about..

You have to climb in to Mhz frequencies before the return is via the braid of the left channel.

Even a two prong system has an IC issue. In the audio band, the return current splits between right and left braid 50-50. Leaving a big loop area between the IC's..

jn

ps. If you have a problem understanding these concepts, or simply don't believe, then do yourself a favor. Call Henry Ott, Howard Johnson, Tom Van Doren, or even Bill Whitlock. Show them my statements. I don't even care if you don't admit speaking with them and finding out I'm correct. What you know or admit to has no meaning to me.

I would just prefer you learn.

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post #198 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 02:19 PM
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wow! I guess the fact that Arny, myself and a few hundred thopusand other folks have set up broadcast standard systems that sound great, have exceptionally low noise floors, do NOT have ground loops or observable distortion and have done so for many years is a moot point. As a reminder, we are talkingabout AUDIO> 20-20kz discernable by human beings. That bandwidth is essentially all that matters.
If fields can be detected around power cables and there is no impression on the audio or damage done to the equipment, what is the problem? Are you just as concerned with all the connections all the way back to the generator and the various switchgear installations and transformers along the way? Can you not just turn on the system and enjoy the music? Trying to impress everyone with your grasp of essentially useless minutia as regards power cables is getting rather tedious. How on Earth did anyone ever set up a functioning system without your direction?
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post #199 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

For the most part, those we speak of don't drive Bentley's.. They are trying to use "cord magic" to fix system problems. The engineering community at large has never really addressed the problem, so the problem exists. Vendors try to fix the problem. And most just try to pay the bills.

I have a novel idea. Instead of attacking the vendors, wouldn't it be nice to actually attack the problem? Just a thought.

jn

But I don't think many of the boutique cable users are really trying to fix anything. I'll bet their systems sound just fine with stock cables. They are being lured in by the promise of better performance and lack the technical background to analyze the claims made. These are not stupid people either. Quite the contrary if they can afford $1000 power cords. They must be really good at something, just not electronics.

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post #200 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 03:42 PM
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Excellent. A few questions if I may.

1. Are you required to bond all chassis to safety ground to meet code?
2. Are you forced to design equipment with single ended line level inputs? If so, how do you deal with any ground currents caused by the safety bond loops.
3. If you use differential inputs, how do you deal with the pin 1 problem?
4. For either scenario, have you controlled the ground current path within the chassis?

Audio power amps:

5. For the extremely low signal voltage levels at the input differential pair, how do you control magfield intrusion at the emitter/base loop (or whatever actives you choose there, be it discretes or integrated circuits).
6. For the feedback divider/dc servo reference ground, are you using star grounding techniques or do you tie it directly at the input differential pair reference point?
7. For all internal star grounds, how do you prevent magfield coupling between line, supply bridge/cap, supply rails, transformer, and the low level ground star wires?

Do you apply EMC techniques to your designs. As in, Tom Van Doren, or Horace Ott?

As you may have noticed, all of my questions relate to the actual fact that power cords can indeed alter the system. For all the bantering about in this thread, saying science and engineering proves they can't is a bunch of malarky. It's disgusting that any credible EE would claim such.

Audibility is a different story. I do not make claims either way. I have experienced it of course, but that is specific to my cords, my system, and me. It cannot simply be applied elsewhere.



John

I've read enough of your posts over the years to know that you simply like to ask questions in order to show off how smart you are.
So with all due respect, I decline to waste the time needed to answer your questions.

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
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post #201 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

wow! I guess the fact that Arny, myself and a few hundred thopusand other folks have set up broadcast standard systems that sound great, have exceptionally low noise floors, do NOT have ground loops or observable distortion and have done so for many years is a moot point. As a reminder, we are talkingabout AUDIO> 20-20kz discernable by human beings. That bandwidth is essentially all that matters.
Yah. Tell me all about the fact that you "professionals" are clueless when it comes to elimination of pin 1 problems, need to use DI boxes as crutches, and consider input isolation transformers as a standard part of your "it ain't workin right so lets toss some transformers at the problem and see if it solves it" toolbox.

You are not part of the solution dude, you are part of the problem. Quit with the ostrich impersonation and learn actual EMC engineering. When you and the "hundreds of thousands of other folks" learn enough engineering to eliminate the need for your bandaids, get back to me. At no point in time will the excuse "well everybody does it" either impress me, or get past me.

Me, I spend a lot of time fixing all the crap your type of engineering causes.
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Trying to impress everyone with your grasp of essentially useless minutia as regards power cables is getting rather tedious.
Dude. I've kept the level of engineering/physics at essentially the monosyllabic level so that mcgyvers like you might grasp it. I see it didn't work, did it? Well, perhaps you can answer the question I posed to arny??
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How on Earth did anyone ever set up a functioning system without your direction?
Well, If I hired you, I'd now have a "professional system" with lots and lots of isolation transformers because you're clueless as to how to really engineer a system.

At some point, you clowns are going to realize that you've absolutely no clue how to engineer systems for EMC. Until such time, I guess I'll just have to just sit back and enjoy handing you your head on a platter...with a monosyllabic level engineering. Your level of understanding, I do in my sleep. And rightly so, you are boring me. Stop acting like a clown, and start acting like an engineer...please.

Note: I normally don't get that heavy..but you deserve it.
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But I don't think many of the boutique cable users are really trying to fix anything. I'll bet their systems sound just fine with stock cables. They are being lured in by the promise of better performance and lack the technical background to analyze the claims made. These are not stupid people either. Quite the contrary if they can afford $1000 power cords. They must be really good at something, just not electronics.
I'm not sure. I guess boredom can play into it, sometimes they read or hear accounts so figure the grass is greener. Heck, I even allow for the possibility that they do indeed own something poorly designed within their systems such that swapping a line cord or IC causes a difference. When one examines how the equipment was engineered, sonetimes I wonder how it works as well as it does..

But I agree, the standard end user in general has no technical background to evaluate the claims, so tend to either trust the engineers (which as can be seen, is not necessarily a good thing depending on who they listen to), or just give up and trust their brethren or heaven forbid, the vendors..

Me, I wish I had enough greenbacks to not worry about a 1,000 dollar cord..sheesh.

And yah, the marketing pseudoscience is usually just so much garbage, it can take a lot of will to not lash out at the horrible misuse of engineering/physics to sell a product.

As you can see, I am not taking too kindly to supposed "engineers" horribly misusing the title to convey expertise..

Giz, despite the back and forth...I hope all is well with you, I recall the recent past..cheers

John

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post #202 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

None of the papers I found on "The Pin 1 problem" were written in this century or even this millenium. None of them reference what I asked for, being some current mainstream audio product, make and model along with technical documentation of the problem.

Furthermore, none of them reference the topic of this thread, which is power cords.

The post I'm replying to looks like just another red herring argument. One that is irrelevant to the current discussion, and one that relates to audio as it was in the previous millennium.

Rather disingenuous, eh arny??

I find it pretty bizarre to be accused of having attitude by someone who seems only to be able to answer reasonable technical questions with personal attacks and other, irrelevant questions.
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post #203 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 04:05 PM
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I've read enough of your posts over the years to know that you simply like to ask questions in order to show off how smart you are.
So with all due respect, I decline to waste the time needed to answer your questions.

So either you have no clue what the questions meant, or this is your way of backing out of a losing argument. If you knew the answers, you would not take any time to answer.

Seriously, all the questions are reality. If you wish to understand what I am asking, either do it online, or pm me. If this is what you do for a living, I'm more than willing to answer anything you wish to know.

A lot of it is stuff you can find in the work of Tom Van Doren..

So, I'll ask you as well...Given a 15 to 20 milliohm return path for the low level signals through the line cord grounds as opposed to the 200 or 500 milliohm resistance of the IC shield path, where should the return current go?

The answer is: the amp will consider the line cord path back to the source as the reference ground for the signal when the signal is within the audio band. In itself, not so bad...however, that hot conductor and neutral conductor in the amp power cable carrying 10 to 50 amp haversine current peaks while travelling IN PARALLEL with the bonding conductor in close proximity (say 1/10th of an inch for 6 to 10 feet in length..


If you did not know that, you should learn it. As well as the answers to my other questions.

Look we are not enemies. But if you wish to brandish the "EE" thingy, you darn well better be able to support it.

jn

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post #204 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I find it pretty bizarre to be accused of having attitude by someone who seems only to be able to answer reasonable technical questions with personal attacks and other, irrelevant questions.

Oh, and we certainly didn't expect that response, now did we?? Diversionary tactics are consistent with you.

Well, answer the technical question arny. What is the current path.

No fair reading my previous post for the answer.

jn

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post #205 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 04:19 PM
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LOL to the recent comments, and interesting to watch from the stands, so to speak!

Master of Minions, Acoustic Frontiers. We specialize in the design and creation of high performance listening rooms, home theaters and project studios for discerning audio/video enthusiasts.
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post #206 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 04:32 PM
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John, didn't Whitlock when he was at Jensen, develop and market isolation transformers? i mean, if they take care of the problem, one which could be remedied by one who is more cognizant such as yourself, what's the big deal?

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post #207 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 05:19 PM
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Recent Bill Whitlock (et al.) power line papers:

patent application:
Power Cable with Twisted and Untwisted Wires to Reduce Ground Loop Voltage
William E. Whitlock
Jamie M. Fox
warning: reading this application may turn your brain to mashed potatoes.

AES 2010 convention paper
Ground Loops The Rest of the Story
Bill Whitlock
Jamie Fox

March 17, 2010
The Conduit Transformer
Dale Shirk

Kevin
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post #208 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 07:25 PM
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Little Jimmy Neutron, as usual you seems to think that the ONLY solution to a problem is redesigning the entire grid structure and replacing every component with sometghing that YOU approve of. Sorry to break it to you but most of US live in the real world. You have a great tendency to not only want to build a clock, but custom grind all the gears as well as mine the raw materials when all that was necessary was to look at an existing clock.

If you get your rocks off insulting everyone else that is fine(and we all know you do), I hope you enjoy yourself. That being said, try walking into any studio or production house and spout your diatribe. Just be prepared to be shown the door. No one questions your mastery of useless minutiae. you are the master. The only problem is that YOUR concepts would be an abject waste of money and time and the end results would be IDENTICAL.

Lord, if only the engineering world would folloow Little Jimmy Neutron's lessons the sun would shine brighter and all would be right in the world.
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post #209 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 08:06 PM
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I have no idea what's in my current AVR, but my old tube preamp (ARC SP3a1), Dynaco Pass-3x, Hafler, and a couple of of SS preamps all had small-value resistors isolating signal ground from chassis (line safety) ground, as did several power amps I have used (I did not look at them all). Presumably to ensure the return current was through the cable shields to reduce potential EMC issues. Or maybe just because they found it sounded better, or -- more likely -- reduced the chance of ground loops in the system. This is somewhat interesting because it not only bolster's John's technical argument, but provides evidence that manufacturers have actually done something about it. It implies John is correct (which does make engineering sense, natch) but also that the premise (safety ground is lowest impedance) may be invalid for a number of components, by design.

FWIWFM - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #210 of 419 Old 04-24-2013, 08:14 PM
 
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The above technical exchange between a bunch of clever blokes is all very amusing (and right over my head), but what's the track back to an addressing the OP's question?

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Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post


need some advice, should i upgrade my blueray players power cord and my receivers powercord????

What's the answer?
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