Up Grade Power Cord ???????? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 07:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello

need some advice, should i upgrade my blueray players power cord and my receivers powercord???? The guy at the audio store was telling me i should to hear the difference. I told him that all my power cords are hooked up to a power conditioner he said its still not the same and said i should still do it.

So should i or not???

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post #2 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 07:20 AM
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No.
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post #3 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Phlegm Hankie View Post

No.

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post #4 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 08:23 AM
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NO!
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post #5 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 09:16 AM
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I'll echo the resounding "NO"...but, out of curiousity, just how much was this guy going to charge you for these "magical" power cords?

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post #6 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 10:38 AM
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IMO cables do make a difference but in the context of where to spend your money for bang for the buck return they are at the bottom of the pile. Most people's systems are not well enough optimized (especially in terms of acoustics) for cabling to be a worthwhile investment. Even in our $50k home theaters we only use standard broadcast quality signal cabling (Belden, Canare), standard OFC speaker wire and what comes in the box for power cords. With audiophile systems where there are a lot less components individual cables can make a difference. You can tailor the characteristics of a power cord to the application for example tight twisting for EMI rejection for source components or low inductance thick gauge cabling for power amplifiers.


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post #7 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 11:09 AM
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Sure cables can make a difference. Use the wrong cable for the application and you can easily see or hear it.

But that's not what these audiophile companies are selling is it? Very few of them have any formal electrical engineering background. They cut and paste legitimate electrical theory and try and apply it it grossly out of context. Like skin effect in analog audio cables. Timed lengths in audio cables, etc.

As for the power cord on the Bluray, the claims made by the sales guy is a total farce! The player is outputting a digital video streams with the audio packetized within. There is absolutely nothing a power cord is going to change for better or worse. You may be told of jitter and how the power cord can fix that by reducing EMI. . Again this is way out of context. The effect a power cord would have on jitter is insignificant. Probably not even measurable, let alone audible or visible.

Think about this. I am a principal EE in one of the largest broadcast and mastering companies. We also have theatrical mix theaters with the latest in audio gear. We either use the power cord that was supplied with the gear (a cheap China cord) or we will often use a 2 foot Belden cord to reduce clutter in racks. That Belden cord is about $3 retail.

Explain that to your sales guy. Also ask them to sow you some documented data that has withstood formal peer review where these power cords do what is claimed. Now that's probably way over their heads and they will probably give you some sales brochure with a lot of fancy words. Sorry, that's not up to the standards I am talking about here. I mean researched data that has the approval of formal engineering institutes.

Hint: THERE IS NONE AND NEVER WAS!
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post #8 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

You can tailor the characteristics of a power cord to the application for example tight twisting for EMI rejection for source components or low inductance thick gauge cabling for power amplifiers.

You mean like 10-12 awg power cord from Home Depot! rolleyes.gif

I'll give you some slack on the twisted power cord if it's feeding or near a device that has a quite linear power supply and is handling low level signals - like a phono preamp. But anything with a switchmode power supply is not going to be influenced by EMI supression from the power cord. A shielded and/or RFI treated power cord may reduce some conducted noise from a switching power supply but again I doubt this will be audible in most systems including the ultra high end.

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post #9 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post

Hello

need some advice, should i upgrade my blueray players power cord and my receivers powercord???? The guy at the audio store was telling me i should to hear the difference. I told him that all my power cords are hooked up to a power conditioner he said its still not the same and said i should still do it.

So should i or not???

the answer is pretty simple. Ask the guy at the audio store to do a little blind test with you switching out different power cords on one piece of equipment playing the same content AT THE SAME VOLUME. I did with my friend at a stereo store and it was pretty obvious to me that different power cords do sound different

if you are honest with yourself and don't have some kind of preconceived theoretical ax to grind.

flame suit on:rolleyes:
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post #10 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edfowler View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post

Hello

need some advice, should i upgrade my blueray players power cord and my receivers powercord???? The guy at the audio store was telling me i should to hear the difference. I told him that all my power cords are hooked up to a power conditioner he said its still not the same and said i should still do it.

So should i or not???

the answer is pretty simple. Ask the guy at the audio store to do a little blind test with you switching out different power cords on one piece of equipment playing the same content AT THE SAME VOLUME. I did with my friend at a stereo store and it was pretty obvious to me that different power cords do sound different

if you are honest with yourself and don't have some kind of preconceived theoretical ax to grind.

flame suit on:rolleyes:

I'd make a significant wager your results would be different in a properly controlled test.
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post #11 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by edfowler View Post

the answer is pretty simple. Ask the guy at the audio store to do a little blind test with you switching out different power cords on one piece of equipment playing the same content AT THE SAME VOLUME. I did with my friend at a stereo store and it was pretty obvious to me that different power cords do sound different

if you are honest with yourself and don't have some kind of preconceived theoretical ax to grind.

flame suit on:rolleyes:

Sure! A/B an 18ga power cord on a high power amp into inefficient speakers at reference SPL levels. I'm quite sure that $2000 12ga power cord sounded better. Now compare that 12ga $2000 cord to a commodity 12ga cord that costs $10. Hear a difference now?

This is an old trick:

1) Monster has a kiosk that used to compare a 50 foot roll of their 16ga speaker wire against a 50 foot roll of 24ga speaker wire.

2) Best Buy touting HDTV calibration services with a setup where one TV was being fed SD and the other HD. I think some states attorney generals offices got on that one!

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post #12 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Ask the guy at the audio store to do a little blind test with you switching out different power cords on one piece of equipment playing the same content AT THE SAME VOLUME. I did with my friend at a stereo store and it was pretty obvious to me that different power cords do sound different

Please describe what you mean by a blind test. How did the cable swapping take place, exactly?
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post #13 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

Sure! A/B an 18ga power cord on a high power amp into inefficient speakers at reference SPL levels. I'm quite sure that $2000 12ga power cord sounded better. Now compare that 12ga $2000 cord to a commodity 12ga cord that costs $10. Hear a difference now?

Probably no audible difference. It takes about 50 watts to push average speakers to reference SPL. If you are doing this with music, not enough average power for the voltage loss across the power cord to make a difference.

0.001588 per foot for a 12 gauge wire, or 0.019 ohms for a 6 foot power cable.

0.00639 per foot for a 18 gauge wire, or 0.077 ohms for a 6 foot power cable.

What do we presume for current in the power cord - 5 amps? One cord drops 0.38 volts and the other drops 0.095 volts on 120 volt power line. No significant effect on operation of power amp.
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post #14 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Probably no audible difference. It takes about 50 watts to push average speakers to reference SPL. If you are doing this with music, not enough average power for the voltage loss across the power cord to make a difference.

0.001588 per foot for a 12 gauge wire, or 0.019 ohms for a 6 foot power cable.

0.00639 per foot for a 18 gauge wire, or 0.077 ohms for a 6 foot power cable.

What do we presume for current in the power cord - 5 amps? One cord drops 0.38 volts and the other drops 0.095 volts on 120 volt power line. No significant effect on operation of power amp.

Well we can't argue with the math! This further reinforces how silly the whole audiophile power cord argument is rolleyes.gif

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post #15 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 01:52 PM
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If "magic" power cords made a significant difference (visual and audible), I wonder why no one has thought of just including them with their product?
Or... sell all TV's and audio gear without power cords and let the consumer buy their own?

I wonder if a magic power cord for my toaster would stop uneven toasting without burning? Would a better power cord make my internet faster? Make my lightbulbs last longer? Clothes dry faster? Wash cleaner?

The only thing that it positively does is add money to the pockets of the retailer and the manufacturer.
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post #16 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

...... [make my] Clothes dry faster? .......

Be careful of what you wish for!

http://www.monstercable.com/productdisplay.asp?pin=1727

Now unfortunately I can't take advantage of this as I have a gas dryer. Does anybody make an audiophile grade gas hose so I can play too?

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post #17 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 03:09 PM
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If "magic" power cords made a significant difference (visual and audible), I wonder why no one has thought of just including them with their product?

I guess you haven't heard of Decware for one.

this thread is another good example of one person asking an honest question, another one trying to help honestly, then a bunch of other ****** crapping on it.

I'm out of here.
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post #18 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 03:16 PM
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Go to Home Depot and take a look at Romex. It costs less than $.050/foot. This is exactly the same copper your homebuilder used to deliver power from your breaker box to the outlet into which you plug all that high-end audio-equipment. There's probably somewhere between 30' and 100' of the stuff that goes from the breaker box to your outlet.

So, even if you buy into the idea that the quality of power cord somehow alters the electrical signal in a way that affects the quality of the audio signal, the 50' of Romex in your wall would be the weak link in that process, not the 3' power cable that you plug into the outlet.
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post #19 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edfowler View Post

the answer is pretty simple. Ask the guy at the audio store to do a little blind test with you switching out different power cords on one piece of equipment playing the same content AT THE SAME VOLUME. I did with my friend at a stereo store and it was pretty obvious to me that different power cords do sound different

if you are honest with yourself and don't have some kind of preconceived theoretical ax to grind.

flame suit on:rolleyes:

The only ax to grind is a disdain for charlatans, and helping fellow music lovers avoid wasting money.

In your particular wire comparison, assuming it takes at least a few seconds to power the gear down, switch cords, and power it back up, then I can't give your conclusion much credence. Human auditory memory is far too short for any valid comparison to be made in those circumstances. Your perception, however, is subject to influence by many factors. I'm sure you perceived a difference, but do you really think that perception would persist under more controlled test conditions? Be honest with yourself.
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post #20 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Please describe what you mean by a blind test. How did the cable swapping take place, exactly?

Arny, I'm not sure how you did it but you have my name tied to someone else's quote.

I can still describe an ABX if you want. Apparently, someone on this site knows a lot about their origination and history wink.gif I'll just quote his old posts....
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post #21 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

Be careful of what you wish for!

http://www.monstercable.com/productdisplay.asp?pin=1727

Now unfortunately I can't take advantage of this as I have a gas dryer. Does anybody make an audiophile grade gas hose so I can play too?

Evidently you missed the raving customer review from your link rolleyes.gif:

Comments about Monster PowerDryer AC Power Cord for Electric Dryers:
Wow, fantastic product. Dryer runs cooler, sounds better, with deep lows and crystaline highs. Dryer seems to have much increased headroom to deal with demanding loads. Clothes dry faster, and the sunshine smell is an unexpected bonus.

Expensive, but worth it!
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post #22 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 04:15 PM
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I guess you haven't heard of Decware for one.
Using Decware as some sort of proof hlarious. Dekkert long ago drank at the Fountain of Kool Aid.
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post #23 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

You mean like 10-12 awg power cord from Home Depot! rolleyes.gif

I'll give you some slack on the twisted power cord if it's feeding or near a device that has a quite linear power supply and is handling low level signals - like a phono preamp. But anything with a switchmode power supply is not going to be influenced by EMI supression from the power cord. A shielded and/or RFI treated power cord may reduce some conducted noise from a switching power supply but again I doubt this will be audible in most systems including the ultra high end.
More to the point, not even an extremely well made twisted, shielded and/or RFI treated power cord should cost more than $15 for 3 ft, maybe $25 for $6.

Why is there NO perfect equipment, only compromises?
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post #24 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

IMO cables do make a difference....
The power compony used inferior cables from the power plant to the transformer outside my house. Should I replace them to get better sound quality?biggrin.gif
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post #25 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 05:46 PM
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The power compony used inferior cables from the power plant to the transformer outside my house. Should I replace them to get better sound quality?

Naaaw, that ain't helping. You need your own powerstation to make sure no interference from SMPs of your neighbours.
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post #26 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 05:50 PM
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Look at the DC output rails of a power supply with a scope to see if there is any AC component. If the trace is flat and within the spec'd ripple, then no power cable will improve on that.
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Originally Posted by kraut View Post

Quote:
The power compony used inferior cables from the power plant to the transformer outside my house. Should I replace them to get better sound quality?

Naaaw, that ain't helping. You need your own powerstation to make sure no interference from SMPs of your neighbours.
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Be careful of what you wish for!
|
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http://redwineaudio.com/components/black_lightning eek.gif

Quote:
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Plug-and-play replacement for inferior stock AC adaptors

AC power adaptors degrade sound quality. Feed your gear pure LFP battery power and hear:

•Improved dynamics
•Blacker backgrounds
•More natural sounding highs
•Better defined bass
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________________________________________________________________________________________________________

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So should i or not???

NOT.

Power cords are a high margin item that the guy in the audio store is trained to flog to you after he's sealed the deal on the gear you went in to buy. Did he already sell you an expensive HDMI cable before he started to push the power cord? ("You've made a great decision with this gear - you will need this [insert type of cable] to make the most of your investment.") This makes up for the skinnier margins on things like players and AVR's.
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post #28 of 419 Old 04-18-2013, 10:23 PM - Thread Starter
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WOW thanks for all the great feed back,

i thought it was a bunch of crap but i had to make sure, anything that make ur system sound better you will definitly look into it lol.... I did not bother to look at what the guy was showing because i would buy the cables from my hook up if it was true, He swore they would make a huge difference cleaner power less jitter all that mumbo jumbo sales pitch talk witch gets me sick.

you know when there selling you a bunch of ****, but i had to ask just in case, so many cable companies selling upgraded powercords so had to ask, thank again everyone

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post #29 of 419 Old 04-19-2013, 11:58 AM
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You guys are hilarious. I am with you on the issue that the whole aftermarket cabling thing is generally full of black magic and sorcery however underneath all the BS there are electrical differences in cables: impedance, capacitance and resistance. I really believe that measurements help explain some things but I also fully believe that measurements do not tell us everything. There are many non-linear dynamic processes in audio reproduction that are very difficult if not impossible to measure and quantify.

Personally I can only go by my experiences, and I have heard the differences in cables. BUT and it's a BIG BUT they are at the bottom of my chain of importance. The audio chain goes (for me at least) speakers, room acoustics, source, power conditioners, amplifiers, cables. Unless your room acoustics and speakers are optimized then spending the amount of money audiophile cable companies want you to spend is just a waste of money. I'll say it again one more time: you would get better returns investing in better speakers and room acoustics.


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post #30 of 419 Old 04-19-2013, 12:02 PM
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Personally I can only go by my experiences, and I have heard the differences in cables.

Almost all of the differences that people perceive in cable comparisons are due to the actual details of the comparison. The crude way that people compare cables, the same cable would be perceived to sound different when compared to itself.
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