Layout for Rear Speaker Solutions - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 9 Old 04-24-2013, 10:04 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been using the Paradigm Signature Series W5/W5C as my LCR for a couple years now and I'm very happy with them so I would like to use Paradigm speakers for the rest of my system as well. My problem is I can't decide which speaker and what placement would work best for my layout and was hoping to get some advice.

I've included a layout of my living room and the surrounding area in my split entry house... red shows current speaker placement. The rear speakers I've been using are small enclosed units bracket mounted to the ceiling but I want to stay away from ceiling mounted speakers as replacements. Apparently mounting surround speakers to the left and right of the couch and above the listeners ears is ideal.

LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01

The numbers below correlate to the ones in my layout... any help would be appreciated. Maybe I'm just not thinking outside the box.

(1) Supposedly this would be the ideal placement for surround speakers but would 3.5 feet be too close to the surround speakers? And the hallway is between the couch and kitchen, so even without kids I can see myself bumping into that particular speaker on my way from the kitchen to the couch. In-wall speakers may be a solution, but would require some work which I'm willing to do. The kitchen wall to the left of the couch is only 4-3/4" deep but I could cut through the wall so the other side opens up into a cabinet, then place a shallow false back inside the cabinet. The exterior wall to the right of the couch should not be cut but I could mount that speaker in an enclosure.

(2) This would place the speakers in approximately the same position as they are now but instead of mounting them high up on the ceiling, I could mount them lower by making whatever I need to fasten them on the walls so they both face forward.

(3) This isn't really for surround speakers but wondered if this would work for one or two rear speakers.

Maybe I'm missing something... not thinking outside the box. Thanks for reading.
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post #2 of 9 Old 04-30-2013, 07:37 AM
 
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Hi 65Cobra

Recommended speaker layout as follows (source).



My interpretation is the ideal position is represented by the speaker symbols. The wedges represent the acceptable range.

So using your position numbering:

  1. Ideal surround position. The close proximity requires a multipolar surround speaker to create a reverberant soundfield and not blast directly into listeners ears. The range of Paradigm surrounds feature shallow profiles, which will hopefully lessen the chances of you bumping into them. The Surround 1's would probably be fine and are only 130mm deep. However, the lads over on the Paradigm owners thread will be able to recommend the surrounds that are the best match for the Signature W5's.
  2. This position is not suitable for surrounds.
  3. Yes, this position looks suitable for rear speakers. Direct radiator speakers would be OK at this position.

Also, just wondering what the dark grey shaded area on your layout represents?

Hope that helps a bit.
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post #3 of 9 Old 05-03-2013, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry for the delay getting back to you but I spent the last several days building a new computer... the things friends can talk you into while waiting for a replacement hard drive under warranty. rolleyes.gif

I very much appreciate the help...

To start with your last question, the grey area is not part of the room. It represents enclosed areas (hall closets), the main entrance (thus the stairs going up into the living room), and part of a separate room (i.e. bedroom). It was included in the image to show how that area behind the couch isn't as open and square as the rest of the layout.

I spoke with Paradigm several times in the past but the bottom line was, since the front/center speakers were part of their Signature series, I should stay with the Signature series all the way around so I am at least trying to do that.

Same as you, I looked at the 'Surround / Rear' category and checked all the options. You're correct about the Surround 1 (130mm deep) but I probably wouldn't run into the ADP1 (155mm deep) any more and it would keep me in the Signature line. I plan to make a cardboard mockup of the speaker and tape it to the wall and see what happens.

But there is also another option under the 'In-Wall / In-Ceiling' category... the SIG-ADP v.3... a 7-driver, 3-way in-wall surround / rear speaker... which is why I mentioned in-wall in my original post. Not having to worry about running into the left speaker would be a definite plus but the right wall is an exterior wall. I also don't know much about in-wall speakers and I'm not clear about the spec Minimum Internal Volume Required 20 L / 0.70 cu ft.

Thanks again for helping.
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post #4 of 9 Old 05-04-2013, 12:06 AM
 
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No worries. Thanks for explaining the grey area. I asked because I wondered if the right surround's rear drivers might be a foot away from, and firing directly at, a partial wall. If so, Floyd Toole explains the problem and some solutions here:



The context of this extract is here. There's some good info on surround speakers starting on page 6.

When you get your surrounds, I suggest you experiment for a while with various combinations of couch position (eg. pull away from railing a foot) and surround positioning, both along and up the walls. Just set them up on a stepladder or something and play some native multichannel music and movie scenes you know well. Once you've found a spot you like on each side, it might be an idea to rig them up temporarily until you get your rears set up, as they will change the overall surround effect when added.

If Paradigm recommended you stick with the Signature line, I can't argue with that. They would certainly provide the best timbre match to the fronts. Taping cardboard mock-ups to the walls is a terrific idea!

Cobra, if you're moving into in-wall speakers you've lost me! Sorry. Even though I have in ceiling surrounds, I've never looked close enough at any in-wall stuff. I'll have to do some research! Suffice to say, I think the minimal internal volume is the required (sealed?) box volume for the speakers to work as designed. So you would need to have the left surround in that volume box in the kitchen cupboard and the right surround in that same volume (not necessarily same dimension?) box mounted on the external wall, if you can't go into it. I could be wrong though. smile.gif
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post #5 of 9 Old 05-04-2013, 03:39 PM - Thread Starter
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I still need to take a look at the link and put some serious thought into this but a couple items come to mind at the moment.

It didn't occur to me the partial wall would be an issue but you're right... at least with the ADP1 or ADP3 since they have side mounted drivers. I need to figure out if that would be an issue with the in-wall speaker as well because I may not be able to move the left speaker. It can't go further back since the entrance to the kitchen is there... or further forward since it would be opposite the refrigerator instead of the kitchen cabinet. I'll need to figure out that Minimum Internal Volume Requirement as well to see if an install could still be done with just the wall.

The ADP3 speakers would be easier to relocate and moving them forward would actually lessen the chance of running into the left speaker.... it would keep it from being 'just around the corner'. I'm just not sure what I think about moving any speaker forward of the listener... which obviously means I need to read that last link. Guess what I'll be doing this weekend biggrin.gif

I'll let you know what I find out but feel free to toss any more thoughts into the mix in the meantime.

Thanks again.
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post #6 of 9 Old 05-08-2013, 09:22 PM
 
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How did the reading go 65Cobra? Just a few random thoughts I had:
  • If moving the surrounds forward of the listener is a solution suggested by Floyd Toole to solve a particular problem, I wouldn't stress at all that it's not totally by the book. Let your ears be the judge.
  • The ADP1 or ADP3 would allow you to experiment with position for an extended period. Perhaps you could knock up or buy some cheap stands to use temporarily. You'd have to be careful not to kick the foot of the stand though...
  • To help you choose between ADP's or in-wall, maybe think about how long you're going to be in this house? The in-walls sort of become a fixture, so OK if your in it for the long haul. The ADP's you can easily take with you if you intend to move in the future.

Food for thought...
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post #7 of 9 Old 05-24-2013, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Haven't been ignoring the thread or the issue but the past two weeks have been rather overwhelming, although I did squeeze in as much as I could. I read the links you posted... thank you... as well as several others, and my nephew was over today for the third time just so we could bang our heads together and come up with a solution.

The Audioholics 'Home Theater Speaker Layout-An Essential Guide' was an excellent starting point but I did run into one conflict. It said the directions were courtesy of Dolby Labs but when I went to their website I noticed they made no mention of positioning the surround speakers "2 feet or more above ear level". In fact Dolby says to place the surrounds "just above ear level to maximize ambience". However, conflicts like this have their advantages and for me it provided motivation.

What I found is the THX website says to "place the SL & SR speakers between 90° to 110° to each side and 2 feet or higher above the listener" which seems to be more the norm... although most sources recommend 2 feet, but many say at least 2 feet... or 2 feet or higher.

I've always leaned towards the Paradigm Signature ADP3 dipole speaker but they could make things easier as well depending on how high is too high. If I can wall mount these speakers near the ceiling... meaning there would only be a 4" gap between the ceiling and the top of the speaker... then I have another alternative. In my layout diagram the left speaker would be slightly back from the (1) position, pushing the side edge of that speaker flush with the entrance to the kitchen. The right speaker would be directly across from the left speaker... but I could make a bracket to move it out of that inside corner by 17" until the back of the speaker is flush with the outside corner.

The good parts are, it places both speakers directly across from each other, and approximately 95-100 degrees to each side of the listening position. The questionable parts are, their height would be approximately 3' 8" above the listening position (based on the center of the speaker), the tops of the speakers will be 4" from the ceiling, and the right speaker will be approximately 22" closer to the listening position than the left speaker. That last one bothers me the most but I'm thinking MCACC should adjust speaker distance to compensate.

Okay... enough for today. Let me know what you think. Thanks.
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post #8 of 9 Old 06-01-2013, 05:19 PM
 
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Yes, there's no need to worry about the different distances to the surrounds - your AVR's auto set-up routine will make the necessary delay and level trim adjustments. Being 4" to the ceiling does seem closer than the norm, but I'm not sure myself what the impact of that would be. The bass response would certainly improve with the reinforcement from the corner. Have you got any way of rigging up the ADP3's temporarily (when you get them)? This will allow you to slide them vertically up and down the wall to see if it makes much of a difference, and if so, what's your preference. If nothing else, your nephew could slide one around on the wall while you listen.

Apologies for the delay in reply - I hadn't checked in on this sub-forum for a while.
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post #9 of 9 Old 06-03-2013, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I was thinking of placing them that high to minimize the chance of bumping into the left surround, and to keep the right surround from being too close to anyone sitting on that side of the couch, but your suggestion of trying them at different heights makes sense. I'm sure I can come up with a way to temporarily mount them at different heights for testing. I suspect they'll end up about midway between ear level and the ceiling, or about 2' above ear level. The right speaker won't be in the way so I'll just make a 90 degree bracket to hold it permanently in place. For the left speaker, I could either make a quick release bracket to remove it, or an adjustable bracket to slide it up near the ceiling. This way it will be out of the way when I'm not using the system. I've done a lot of fabricating over the years... mostly aluminum and stainless... so I'm sure I can come up with a bracket that will work and still look good. I'll start drawing while I watch TV tongue.gif

No apology needed... glad to have someone help me think this out. Sometimes I have trouble thinking outside the box, so even a few words can help. It may be a while before I get this done because this is going hand in hand with a number of remodeling tasks in the house, but it will get done. Don't hesitate to post here if you happen to think of anything else, no matter how minor... or you can PM me. Thanks for taking the time.
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