Beating a dead horse: 60hz vs 80hz crossover settings - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 38 Old 04-29-2013, 06:13 PM
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Ha - I thought my last post which was also from a phone was impressively long!

Agree that the sound of DSPs, DACs and their specific implementation can be different although all the common brands are getting very good at this side of things now. They should be - they've been doing it for ages.

No point in me regurgitating that which has already been expressed more eloquently and in more detail than I'm capable of...

http://www.hometheaterfocus.com/receivers/amplifier-sound-quality.aspx

A list/summary of ABX tests...

http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths

Just to be 100% clear - Whilst it might be "clean" the Cambridge Azur 551R amp does not have a heavier duty power supply for the price. This is clear from the weight and the reducing output when a load is applied to more channels. As with all the other brands you have to get a model higher in the range to get a heavier duty power supply ie. 651R or 751R, although these models only have the most basic auto room set-up from Audyssey (highly undesirable). The 551R is even worse in this respect only setting distances, levels and X-overs(?) but not applying any EQ! Avoid.
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post #32 of 38 Old 04-29-2013, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The T5 speakers start to roll off at around 45-50 hz. They only need "help" at frequencies below 50 Hz, and it is not smart to limit them in any way, especially with the crude low-quality electronic filtering of a receiver.

You should set the Low-Pass Filter ON THE SUBWOOFER to around 50 Hz to avoid overlapping the frequency response of the main speakers.

It should only operate below 50 Hz. No matter what some people say, most subwoofers are not really designed to operate optimally much above 50 Hz. Furthermore, they are MONAURAL sources,which is not desirable at higher frequencies.

You should just set the main speakers to operate full-range, with NO low-frequency limit.

The available total power of the receiver power supply is an issue when running 5 or 7 channels.

Most Denon and Marantz receivers are fairly good in that respect, but there are definitely some others that can deliver more current to the speakers with less distortion.

If you want to upgrade the receiver, IMO one should avoid Yamaha, Pioneer, and Sony like the plague; they are the worst IMO.

The Cambridge Audio 551R would be my first choice, by a mile, because you get a huge power supply and amplifiers from them that are actually designed to run 7 channels properly. As a result the sound quality is excellent.

My second choice would be the Harman-Kardon 3650 or 2650, which are very good also.

Almost all of the other receivers on the market have very inferior amplifiers and power supplies, even in some very expensive models, and simply do not have the current capability to meet the peak demands of your speakers when played fairly loud.

The power ratings of most of the receivers on the are deceptive and ridiculous, and should be ignored.

I simply don't know how you come up with this stuff.
There is nothing in this post worth considering.
You constantly push that Cambridge AVR and quite frankly it is more of an underachier than many of the ones you detest.
http://www.hometheater.com/content/cambridge-audio-azur-551r-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Hopefully the inexperienced people here steer clear of your advice.

Regards,
Charlie

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post #33 of 38 Old 04-29-2013, 10:53 PM
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ok, now were really beating the dead horse!!! (Im not trying to argue but just enjoy the interesting topics and hope someone gets something out of reading all of this)

some things that separate better sounding amps from worse ones:
Slew rate and damping factor
These are definitely measureable.
The tube amps that people hear the "warmth" is definitely not fiction; a tube produces harmonics that add to the sound. Granted it is "distortion" and changes the original but in a pleasing way; and very minute; it takes a very keen ear to hear the difference. In the recording or live audio process audio is purposely passed thru tube preamp stages just to restore what is lost in a/d and d/a processes, or when driving tubes hard the distortion produced is sometimes what an engineer is looking for on a particular track (the distortion does not sound like a solid state amp distorting, it is much more pleasing than that).

If you consider yourself an audiophile and listen to your system a lot and your favorite music often you can easily pick out the nuances that are less noticeable on other systems. The double blind listening test in the link put a bunch of people in a room and not everybody could notice the difference, but not everybody has the ear that it takes to notice; if you don't have a trained ear then it is not worth spending the money on something you wont notice the difference on; Also, the test must be instantaneous switching to really notice the difference because once it stops your memory isn't good enough to really notice the small nuances that could be changing. Its like an old lady here in Couth Florida buying a 6 cylinder brand new camry to drive it 25 miles per hour to the food store twice a week, rather than the 4 cylinder version or a used cheaper car. Chances are she will never even know the torque the car has to offer; Or another (more appropriate) example is a semi-blind person buying a brand new hdtv when they cant see the great picture the tv has to offer! Being "semi blind" they may be able to see the picture but not notice how much better it is. If your ear is not trained to or used to picking out the soft nuances then why pay for a $2500 sound system!!! On the flip side, if you can hear the difference, don't be fooled by a report that says to not explore the higher priced gear because there is no difference! If your on this website chances are you either already do have this ear or you find it all interesting and want to spend more time listening to high quality gear (and after listening often you will start to hear the nuances, its most noticeable when you listen on another system and realize the difference in the sound).
I for one have listened to different amplifiers and can easily hear different character in different brands or designs. Can I tell which is which, not necessarily (depending on which 2 are in question) but I can hear a difference and tell you what I like or dislike about each, or atleast what the difference is. It is hard, not huge difference but there are differences.

Hopefully in the >$600-700 range, theres not much to dislike and just slightly different character from one to the next.
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post #34 of 38 Old 04-29-2013, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audioguy78 View Post

ok, now were really beating the dead horse!!! (Im not trying to argue but just enjoy the interesting topics and hope someone gets something out of reading all of this)

some things that separate better sounding amps from worse ones:
Slew rate and damping factor
These are definitely measureable.
The tube amps that people hear the "warmth" is definitely not fiction; a tube produces harmonics that add to the sound. Granted it is "distortion" and changes the original but in a pleasing way; and very minute; it takes a very keen ear to hear the difference. In the recording or live audio process audio is purposely passed thru tube preamp stages just to restore what is lost in a/d and d/a processes, or when driving tubes hard the distortion produced is sometimes what an engineer is looking for on a particular track (the distortion does not sound like a solid state amp distorting, it is much more pleasing than that).

If you consider yourself an audiophile and listen to your system a lot and your favorite music often you can easily pick out the nuances that are less noticeable on other systems. The double blind listening test in the link put a bunch of people in a room and not everybody could notice the difference, but not everybody has the ear that it takes to notice; if you don't have a trained ear then it is not worth spending the money on something you wont notice the difference on; Also, the test must be instantaneous switching to really notice the difference because once it stops your memory isn't good enough to really notice the small nuances that could be changing. Its like an old lady here in Couth Florida buying a 6 cylinder brand new camry to drive it 25 miles per hour to the food store twice a week, rather than the 4 cylinder version or a used cheaper car. Chances are she will never even know the torque the car has to offer; Or another (more appropriate) example is a semi-blind person buying a brand new hdtv when they cant see the great picture the tv has to offer! Being "semi blind" they may be able to see the picture but not notice how much better it is. If your ear is not trained to or used to picking out the soft nuances then why pay for a $2500 sound system!!! On the flip side, if you can hear the difference, don't be fooled by a report that says to not explore the higher priced gear because there is no difference! If your on this website chances are you either already do have this ear or you find it all interesting and want to spend more time listening to high quality gear (and after listening often you will start to hear the nuances, its most noticeable when you listen on another system and realize the difference in the sound).
I for one have listened to different amplifiers and can easily hear different character in different brands or designs. Can I tell which is which, not necessarily (depending on which 2 are in question) but I can hear a difference and tell you what I like or dislike about each, or atleast what the difference is. It is hard, not huge difference but there are differences.

Hopefully in the >$600-700 range, theres not much to dislike and just slightly different character from one to the next.

Do you have any reliable scientific evidence that anyone anywhere has reliably and consistently identified differences in mondern solid state amplifies in a DBT?

Subjective accounts and flowery words do not count, as they are not considered reliable scientific evidence and are full of "beliefs" and demonstrate human bias..

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!
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post #35 of 38 Old 04-30-2013, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audioguy78 View Post

ok, now were really beating the dead horse!!!
...damping factor...

http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/damping-factor-effects-on-system-response
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post #36 of 38 Old 04-30-2013, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audioguy78 View Post


Some things that separate better sounding amps from worse ones:
Slew rate and damping factor
These are definitely measurable.

Yet another set of audiophile myth. Slew rate is a non-issue because the basic requirements of inaudible levels of distortion are very easy to meet. Damping factor is generally an non-issue for class AB power amps with global feedback (that's about 99+% of all amplifiers in use) because it naturally comes out so high that it more than good enough. Damping factor is an alias for the actual amplifier property which is known as source impedance. They are related by a very simple equation. Amplifier source impedance can be an audible issue for swtichmode power amps.
Quote:
The tube amps that people hear the "warmth" is definitely not fiction; a tube produces harmonics that add to the sound.

Another myth. The same nonlinearities that produce harmonics also produce intermodulation distortion which is just plain nasty to listen to. The tubed amps that have lots of THD generally do so at only at relatively high power levels. At low more typical listening levels their distortion may be low enough to be completely inaudible. There is no mystery why most tubed amplifier proponents also favor highly efficient speakers. Keep the power levels down, and the nonlinear distortion may be low enough to ignore.

The most audible property of tubed amps relates to their source impedance which is both far higher than good SS amps and often varying across the audible range. Drive a typical speaker with a bass resonance and corresponding rise it its impedance curve and you have a bass boost circuit with random but audible effects at all listening levels. Hence the perception of warmth. Take a good SS amp and put a 1-8 ohm resistor in series with its output terminals and you will have a decent approximation of the most obvious characteristic sound of a tubed amp.
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post #37 of 38 Old 04-30-2013, 01:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audioguy78 View Post

The tube amps that people hear the "warmth" is definitely not fiction; a tube produces harmonics that add to the sound. Granted it is "distortion" and changes the original but in a pleasing way; and very minute; it takes a very keen ear to hear the difference. In the recording or live audio process audio is purposely passed thru tube preamp stages just to restore what is lost in a/d and d/a processes, or when driving tubes hard the distortion produced is sometimes what an engineer is looking for on a particular track (the distortion does not sound like a solid state amp distorting, it is much more pleasing than that).
Try these links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amplifier_class#Power_amplifier_classes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_sound
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post #38 of 38 Old 04-30-2013, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Audioguy78 View Post

Excuse any typos, I put that whole thing on a cell phone!

I understand. I do much of my posting on a cell phone as well and it's never easy to get everything spelled properly. Tiny keys + stubby finger do not make for grammatically correct posts!

Stand tall and shake the heavens...
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