Beating a dead horse: 60hz vs 80hz crossover settings - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 38 Old 04-26-2013, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Sean Spamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 900
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked: 183
Hey there, by the amount of information I've digested by searching the web regarding this subject I'm sure everyone's heard this question about a billion times. I'd just like to push it to 1 billion and 1 if I may smile.gif
Many forums suggest an 80hz cutoff for crossover for all your speakers for home theater, while some suggest experimenting within the 60 - 80hz range. The theory it seems is that setting a crossover higher ( i.e. ) 80 frees up your speakers to cleanly reproduce sound above that range - whilst letting the sub do all the work below. Some have said that they like to have all their speakers if capable set the same, " singing the same song" if you will. I'm curious about the effectiveness of using different crossover frequencies. I have a 7.2 speaker setup, PSB T5 fronts, C5 center, and 4 B5 surrounds, and all are capable of playing easily down to 60hz. What are the benefits, if any, of setting the floorstanders at 60, and the others at 80, or setting say the fronts and the center at 60, and the 4 surrounds to 80? as I'm running two subs, is this just a waste and a drain to the front soundstage if setup this way? and what if any effect would that have when playing multi channel stereo for music?
Also, some have said that while AVR's might be rated to say - 100 watts per channel, that when played in a 7 speaker configuration, the power drops substantially. If this is the case, would setting all the speakers at 80 instead of the rears free up power to drive the fronts and center's mids and highs? My Receiver is a Denon 1913, rated at 90 watts per channel. My speaker specs are thus:



Thanks for your opinions!
Sean Spamilton is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 38 Old 04-26-2013, 04:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
myoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 1,267
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

Hey there, by the amount of information I've digested by searching the web regarding this subject I'm sure everyone's heard this question about a billion times. I'd just like to push it to 1 billion and 1 if I may smile.gif
Many forums suggest an 80hz cutoff for crossover for all your speakers for home theater, while some suggest experimenting within the 60 - 80hz range. The theory it seems is that setting a crossover higher ( i.e. ) 80 frees up your speakers to cleanly reproduce sound above that range - whilst letting the sub do all the work below. Some have said that they like to have all their speakers if capable set the same, " singing the same song" if you will. I'm curious about the effectiveness of using different crossover frequencies. I have a 7.2 speaker setup, PSB T5 fronts, C5 center, and 4 B5 surrounds, and all are capable of playing easily down to 60hz. What are the benefits, if any, of setting the floorstanders at 60, and the others at 80, or setting say the fronts and the center at 60, and the 4 surrounds to 80? as I'm running two subs, is this just a waste and a drain to the front soundstage if setup this way? and what if any effect would that have when playing multi channel stereo for music?
Also, some have said that while AVR's might be rated to say - 100 watts per channel, that when played in a 7 speaker configuration, the power drops substantially. If this is the case, would setting all the speakers at 80 instead of the rears free up power to drive the fronts and center's mids and highs? My Receiver is a Denon 1913, rated at 90 watts per channel. My speaker specs are thus:

Thanks for your opinions!

When you run Audyssey, what does it set your speakers at? Your speakers are rated at 6 ohms, so your Denon is not working that hard to drive them, and PSB suggests at least 50 WPC. The best thing to do is experiment and set it up so it sounds good to you. You are correct about the power drop when using all 7 speakers - and with a 6 ohm load, the power output would be slightly lower, but I don't think you have anything to worry about. If Audyssey sets your front speakers to full range, very little LFE will be sent to your subs- set them to at least 60Hz for your left and right front channels.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-1913-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
HT Labs Measures

Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 102.3 watts
1% distortion at 117.7 watts

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 70.5 watts
1% distortion at 81.7 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 52.7 watts
1% distortion at 68.7 watts

Also, some have said that while AVR's might be rated to say - 100 watts per channel, that when played in a 7 speaker configuration, the power drops substantially. If this is the case, would setting all the speakers at 80 instead of the rears free up power to drive the fronts and center's mids and highs? My Receiver is a Denon 1913, rated at 90 watts per channel.

Probably not. You're adjusting the crossover frequency of the speakers, not the power applied to each speaker.
Sean Spamilton likes this.
myoda is offline  
post #3 of 38 Old 04-26-2013, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Sean Spamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 900
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by myoda View Post

When you run Audyssey, what does it set your speakers at? Your speakers are rated at 6 ohms, so your Denon is not working that hard to drive them, and PSB suggests at least 50 WPC. The best thing to do is experiment and set it up so it sounds good to you. You are correct about the power drop when using all 7 speakers - and with a 6 ohm load, the power output would be slightly lower, but I don't think you have anything to worry about. If Audyssey sets your front speakers to full range, very little LFE will be sent to your subs- set them to at least 60Hz for your left and right front channels.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-1913-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
HT Labs Measures

Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 102.3 watts
1% distortion at 117.7 watts

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 70.5 watts
1% distortion at 81.7 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 52.7 watts
1% distortion at 68.7 watts

Also, some have said that while AVR's might be rated to say - 100 watts per channel, that when played in a 7 speaker configuration, the power drops substantially. If this is the case, would setting all the speakers at 80 instead of the rears free up power to drive the fronts and center's mids and highs? My Receiver is a Denon 1913, rated at 90 watts per channel.

Probably not. You're adjusting the crossover frequency of the speakers, not the power applied to each speaker.

Audyssey sees the speakers at 40 to 60 depending on where I fine tune the placement - usually all at 40. I'm not worried about setting them at 60 in that I'm worried about damage to the speakers, as again I know they're more then capable of handling frequencies in that range, just wondering if 1. I'd be allowing the speakers to have clearer mids and highs if setting the crossover higher, ( 80 ) and 2. whether or not it's advisable to set some to 60 and some to 80 to achieve the best sound. Of course I know it's a matter of perception and what I think sounds best, just thought I'd see what others opinions were.
Thanks for the specs on the AVR, it sounds like it will get me through just fine, at least until next Christmas when I upgrade to something with X32!
Basically I'm trying to find a good balance. I find for music I like the crossovers to be 60 all around, and for movies 80 seems to work a bit better - Pain in the butt to change it all the time though, so If I could get away with setting the fronts and center at 60 and the 4 surrounds at 80 without losing some unknown musical continuity - I will.
Sean Spamilton is online now  
post #4 of 38 Old 04-27-2013, 07:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Nethawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,513
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 115
I'm not sure with the 1913,but on the Denon 4311 I can customize 2 channel source to be a different crossover setting. For me, I drop crossover to 40Hz. I found that with a lot of music there was little difference, but on the occasional dive into African music the subtleties of acoustic percussion were more pleasing coming from my speaker woofers.

For HT it may be more beneficial to use a higher crossover, but this time around I purchased speakers with a priority on music. They're capable of 30Hz, I see no reason not to utilize them to their fullest.

Nethawk is offline  
post #5 of 38 Old 04-27-2013, 08:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
commsysman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,504
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 254 Post(s)
Liked: 288
The T5 speakers start to roll off at around 45-50 hz. They only need "help" at frequencies below 50 Hz, and it is not smart to limit them in any way, especially with the crude low-quality electronic filtering of a receiver.

You should set the Low-Pass Filter ON THE SUBWOOFER to around 50 Hz to avoid overlapping the frequency response of the main speakers.

It should only operate below 50 Hz. No matter what some people say, most subwoofers are not really designed to operate optimally much above 50 Hz. Furthermore, they are MONAURAL sources,which is not desirable at higher frequencies.

You should just set the main speakers to operate full-range, with NO low-frequency limit.

The available total power of the receiver power supply is an issue when running 5 or 7 channels.

Most Denon and Marantz receivers are fairly good in that respect, but there are definitely some others that can deliver more current to the speakers with less distortion.

If you want to upgrade the receiver, IMO one should avoid Yamaha, Pioneer, and Sony like the plague; they are the worst IMO.

The Cambridge Audio 551R would be my first choice, by a mile, because you get a huge power supply and amplifiers from them that are actually designed to run 7 channels properly. As a result the sound quality is excellent.

My second choice would be the Harman-Kardon 3650 or 2650, which are very good also.

Almost all of the other receivers on the market have very inferior amplifiers and power supplies, even in some very expensive models, and simply do not have the current capability to meet the peak demands of your speakers when played fairly loud.

The power ratings of most of the receivers on the are deceptive and ridiculous, and should be ignored.
Sean Spamilton likes this.
commsysman is offline  
post #6 of 38 Old 04-27-2013, 10:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Nethawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,513
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 115
^^^ The dead horse has now officially been whooped. rolleyes.gif

Nethawk is offline  
post #7 of 38 Old 04-27-2013, 11:41 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bsoko2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 4,407
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

^^^ The dead horse has now officially been whooped. rolleyes.gif

Not really. Does any one of you run REW to see what your room is really doing and what is the best optimum crossover for your system?
bsoko2 is offline  
post #8 of 38 Old 04-27-2013, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Sean Spamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 900
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

I'm not sure with the 1913,but on the Denon 4311 I can customize 2 channel source to be a different crossover setting. For me, I drop crossover to 40Hz. I found that with a lot of music there was little difference, but on the occasional dive into African music the subtleties of acoustic percussion were more pleasing coming from my speaker woofers.

For HT it may be more beneficial to use a higher crossover, but this time around I purchased speakers with a priority on music. They're capable of 30Hz, I see no reason not to utilize them to their fullest.

Well I can individually set crossovers, it just means I have to go into the avr setup when switching between movies and music for OPTIMAL sound - does the 4311 pick up on the fact it's a 2 channel source automatically?

Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The T5 speakers start to roll off at around 45-50 hz. They only need "help" at frequencies below 50 Hz, and it is not smart to limit them in any way, especially with the crude low-quality electronic filtering of a receiver.

You should set the Low-Pass Filter ON THE SUBWOOFER to around 50 Hz to avoid overlapping the frequency response of the main speakers.

It should only operate below 50 Hz. No matter what some people say, most subwoofers are not really designed to operate optimally much above 50 Hz. Furthermore, they are MONAURAL sources,which is not desirable at higher frequencies.

Yes this does run contrary to common opinion - I'm wondering with respect to the sub low pass filter, if the avr is dictating the frequency at which bass is sent to the sub, wouldn't it not matter if I had the Low pass filter higher? for example, if the receiver is cutting off frequency at say 60hz, and the sub had the knob set to 120, wouldn't only the 60 reach the sub anyways?
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

You should just set the main speakers to operate full-range, with NO low-frequency limit.

Although I've heard many people espouse this method with respect to two channel music, but with respect to home cinema / gaming, wouldn't I then lose low frequencies designed to for the subwoofer if I did this? if the movie has frequencies below 40hz, as many of them do of course, and my mains are set to Full Range, that would mean that no bass is routed to the subs from the fronts below their low range, so even if the t5's could handle down to 40hz with no problem, everything below would just go *poof* - no?
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The available total power of the receiver power supply is an issue when running 5 or 7 channels.

Most Denon and Marantz receivers are fairly good in that respect, but there are definitely some others that can deliver more current to the speakers with less distortion.

If you want to upgrade the receiver, IMO one should avoid Yamaha, Pioneer, and Sony like the plague; they are the worst IMO.



The Cambridge Audio 551R would be my first choice, by a mile, because you get a huge power supply and amplifiers from them that are actually designed to run 7 channels properly. As a result the sound quality is excellent.

My second choice would be the Harman-Kardon 3650 or 2650, which are very good also.

Almost all of the other receivers on the market have very inferior amplifiers and power supplies, even in some very expensive models, and simply do not have the current capability to meet the peak demands of your speakers when played fairly loud.

The power ratings of most of the receivers on the are deceptive and ridiculous, and should be ignored.

Thanks for the suggestions - I'm keeping all my options open with respect to the receiver, and yeah, Yamaha, Pioneer and Sony's are not on my list smile.gif I'm liking the look of the Onkyo 818's, and will check out their replacement version coming out soon ( supposed to have Auddesy XT32 ) ... but will audition many more, including my go to Denon's, Anthems, Merantz, and at your suggestion the Cambridge audio smile.gif
Sean Spamilton is online now  
post #9 of 38 Old 04-27-2013, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Sean Spamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 900
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post



Not really. Does any one of you run REW to see what your room is really doing and what is the best optimum crossover for your system?

I have Auddesy MultiEQ with the Denon, and have relied upon that thus far. I've downloaded REW, and borrowed an old SPL meter from a buddy, and might mess around with it this Sunday, however in the tome like instructions it says that REW is best used with a sound card, and not with the onboard mic input - and after spending 2000 + dollars on replacing my speakers, I'm shying away from spending more money on things I'll only ever use ONCE like a sound card. I'll see what results I get with the onboard audio ( P8z77 V Pro Mboard if that means anything to you wink.gif )
Sean Spamilton is online now  
post #10 of 38 Old 04-27-2013, 04:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
primetimeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 4,169
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 344 Post(s)
Liked: 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The T5 speakers start to roll off at around 45-50 hz. They only need "help" at frequencies below 50 Hz, and it is not smart to limit them in any way, especially with the crude low-quality electronic filtering of a receiver.

You should set the Low-Pass Filter ON THE SUBWOOFER to around 50 Hz to avoid overlapping the frequency response of the main speakers.

It should only operate below 50 Hz. No matter what some people say, most subwoofers are not really designed to operate optimally much above 50 Hz. Furthermore, they are MONAURAL sources,which is not desirable at higher frequencies.

You should just set the main speakers to operate full-range, with NO low-frequency limit.

The available total power of the receiver power supply is an issue when running 5 or 7 channels.

Most Denon and Marantz receivers are fairly good in that respect, but there are definitely some others that can deliver more current to the speakers with less distortion.

If you want to upgrade the receiver, IMO one should avoid Yamaha, Pioneer, and Sony like the plague; they are the worst IMO.

The Cambridge Audio 551R would be my first choice, by a mile, because you get a huge power supply and amplifiers from them that are actually designed to run 7 channels properly. As a result the sound quality is excellent.

My second choice would be the Harman-Kardon 3650 or 2650, which are very good also.

Almost all of the other receivers on the market have very inferior amplifiers and power supplies, even in some very expensive models, and simply do not have the current capability to meet the peak demands of your speakers when played fairly loud.

The power ratings of most of the receivers on the are deceptive and ridiculous, and should be ignored.

Just wow!

 

First you say his speakers need help below 50hz, then you suggest running them full range.  And in doing so the subwoofer low pass has no meaning for the mains so why set to 50hz?  This would mean he now loses all 50-120hz content in the LFE channel for movies.

 

To the OP, I'd recommend simply ignoring that entire post.

primetimeguy is online now  
post #11 of 38 Old 04-27-2013, 06:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
myoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 1,267
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Just wow!

First you say his speakers need help below 50hz, then you suggest running them full range.  And in doing so the subwoofer low pass has no meaning for the mains so why set to 50hz?  This would mean he now loses all 50-120hz content in the LFE channel for movies.

To the OP, I'd recommend simply ignoring that entire post.

Sean:

Eliminate the Denon sub - it was part of a home theater in a box system, and really does not match up well with the Klipsch sub. I betcha if you dump that sub, run audyssey again, things should smooth out. Ideally, if I were you, don't listen to the man behind the curtain about upgrading your receiver. Upgrading your sub will give you more accurate, tighter bass when listening to multichannel music, and good LFE when watching movies. Your speakers deserve a better sub, or two.
Sean Spamilton likes this.
myoda is offline  
post #12 of 38 Old 04-27-2013, 11:32 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Sean Spamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 900
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by myoda View Post

Sean:

Eliminate the Denon sub - it was part of a home theater in a box system, and really does not match up well with the Klipsch sub. I betcha if you dump that sub, run audyssey again, things should smooth out. Ideally, if I were you, don't listen to the man behind the curtain about upgrading your receiver. Upgrading your sub will give you more accurate, tighter bass when listening to multichannel music, and good LFE when watching movies. Your speakers deserve a better sub, or two.

I'm sure your right, it doesn't sound BAD mind you, but maybe that element that seems a bit amiss is exactly that. I'll look into investing in a matching sub for the klipsch. I'm looking into getting one today in fact..
Sean Spamilton is online now  
post #13 of 38 Old 04-27-2013, 11:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
NuSoardGraphite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tucson AZ
Posts: 1,544
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 144
Your Denon AVR should be able to save your audio settings depending on what signal you have coming into your AVR. You can tell it to go to Stereo mode if it is receiving a native 2.0 stereo signal. You can also set "standard" modes depending on the input currently being used. For example, when I use my PS3 for DVD's and Netflix, it defaults to PLII Cinema. However when it recieves a specific signal such as Dolby Digital, DTS or HD audio, it switches to the most appropriate mode. These AVR's are pretty smart in that regard.

And there should be no problem with setting your Fronts to 60 and your surrounds to 80 for movie content. The Denons are capable of this as well. There is a reason I went with a Denon AVR over the other brands (based on affordability of course)
Sean Spamilton likes this.

Stand tall and shake the heavens...
NuSoardGraphite is offline  
post #14 of 38 Old 04-27-2013, 11:59 PM
Member
 
Audioguy78's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: South Florida
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I have been on this forum for some time now but don't visit or post often.
I will admit I do not have "a lot" of pro experience in HT design and set up other than designing my own (now fairly dated) budget system (and it still needs much improvement), but I do have >13 years in live sound work on stages building and operating sound systems for anything from small events (<100 audience) to large festivals (close to 10,000 concert goers per day) and I have done arena tours and a world tour as well so I am not exactly a "new-be" to sound equipment and acoustics (but not totally up on the home theater front).

What I can add to this talk about subwoofer settings is:
1) the power supply in your multi-channel receiver is only capable of a certain amount of current which then feeds each of the amplifiers. IF ALL OUTPUTS ARE PLAYED AT THE SAME HIGH LEVEL AT THE SAME TIME then the power supply will be the limiting factor to output power for each channel. Even if you are using 7 amplifiers watching a movie and a loud sound flies around the room (from one speaker to another) then each amplifier should be able to produce the full output power as specced, since the current is only used as the amps play louder sounds and not full time.
2) The less sources of a single sound, the more natural they will sound (in most situations). The biggest cause of unnatural sound is multiple sources of the same sound. Since each source is slightly out of time with the next (for instance if you are 1/2 a foot closer to one speaker than another then there will be a very slight- barely measurable volume level change, but the difference in time between the 2 speakers will cause phase problems that are more apparent- the more distance the lower the effected frequencies. Most frequencies will couple together making it sound louder, but a few frequencies will cancel causing those frequencies to seem to disappear!). This is why receivers have distance controls (or automatic setup that controls this for you now). The only problem with this is if you are not in "the sweet spot" then you wil not assume the benefit of the time correcting controls! IF you don't believe me then listen to your pink noise play... In a perfect world the tonal quality of the pink noise will be the same from all speakers. Now make a disc or file of pink noise and make it play in all speakers at once... move around and you will easily hear the coupling and cancelling of different frequencies as you move around the room!
3) Low frequencies are also more prone to the cancellations (above) being noticeable. Due to room modes alone, you will hear each speaker's natural sound coupling with reflections of walls. These 2 "sources" will cause coupling and cancelling (most cancelling will be in the higher frequencies of the sub unless your in a very large room). Now if you play your main speakers at full range and your sub plays the lows along with the mains then remember each of the main speakers have main sounds and reflections as well and they are all adding up and cancelling at your ears. Most rooms wont have "cancellations" below 100-150 hz (estimated) due to the rooms being too small; all sounds below will couple and be louder at those frequencies; large rooms will have lower frequency cancellations.
4) Low frequencies are less efficient to reproduce in most speaker systems, and require more power to produce the desired levels. even if your main speakers are capable of producing "sub" frequencies in order for them to do so requires more power amplification. Speakers should be capable of producing all frequencies within their range clearly but some people have found slight improvements when the speakers don't need to produce as many sounds at one time. Some concert tours have gone as far as flying 2 separate pa systems side by side and routing the sounds of main vocals and certain key instruments thru one system while the rest of the program plays thru the other because the clarity is slightly greater (this is for major tours with open-ended budgets, and very few major tours actually went this route).

With all this in mind, IF you have the proper power available to power your "large" speakers then the benefits of producing all your sound thru your mains will be noticed (and louder, more dynamic passages wont be limited by system resources). With most receivers (rated ~100w/ch and probably not accurately rated and really doing less for long term use) you may be better off sending all your low frequency energy to your subwoofer which has a separate amplifier, hopefully more powerful to handle the low frequencies; and the speaker and enclosure is tuned better for these low frequencies; at the same time the amps in the receiver don't need to work as hard since they are relieved of the hardest job of the system and the main speakers don't need to produce nearly as much program and can concentrate on the rest of the sounds in the room.

Remember, however, that in h.t. use, most of your sound is being produced by the center channel and that is what really needs to be the clearest so setting a higher high-pass filter on this and leaving the l/r to play lower frequencies may benefit the system.

Whatever you do, remember a couple of things: the "LFE" (.1) channel is programmed with sounds as high as 120hz so its not a good idea to set it lower with the subwoofer's lp filter; use the reciever's lp filter if you can to control the sub because (I believe but could be wrong) that the receiver will route the lfe sound appropriately (if you set it to <80 then I believe it will send the 80-120 material to your mains? someone correct me if I am wrong.) or it will send the full LFE sounds to the sub and only use the crossover filters to control sounds originally routed to main speakers. You want all frequencies to go to a speaker capable of reproducing the sounds, so don't let the fronts play full range (no filter) unless they really can play full range, or else any sub-bass sound in the program may not make it to the room!

I found that in my system (without any special eq or room deadening material other than couches) it is hard to make the subwoofer transparent and I can hear where it is, and the only real way to make it really mate well with the system is to use low crossover / lp filters on it, so the main speakers need to be able to produce low enough frequencies to make the crossover transparent (crossover being the frequency/ies from the l/c/r to the sub, not a particular piece of equipment)

These are all ideas to consider, not direct directions of how to set up your system. There is no "perfect" solution and all systems will have a compromise somewhere so understanding all the details will help you choose the best compromise.

I found that the reading material on the Hsu Research website for sub placement and sub setting is not the same as most people recommend, but from an acoustical analysis point of view I found it very helpful in making some decisions in how to set up my system, and I recommend reading it for further ideas (not anything I pointed out here, so it is all new!)
Nethawk and Sean Spamilton like this.
Audioguy78 is offline  
post #15 of 38 Old 04-28-2013, 12:01 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Sean Spamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 900
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by NuSoardGraphite View Post

Your Denon AVR should be able to save your audio settings depending on what signal you have coming into your AVR. You can tell it to go to Stereo mode if it is receiving a native 2.0 stereo signal. You can also set "standard" modes depending on the input currently being used. For example, when I use my PS3 for DVD's and Netflix, it defaults to PLII Cinema. However when it recieves a specific signal such as Dolby Digital, DTS or HD audio, it switches to the most appropriate mode. These AVR's are pretty smart in that regard.

And there should be no problem with setting your Fronts to 60 and your surrounds to 80 for movie content. The Denons are capable of this as well. There is a reason I went with a Denon AVR over the other brands (based on affordability of course)

Mine does that as well for PS3 - I just am trying to find a happy medium so I don't have to manually switch the crossovers when I switch from music to gaming - so I've found 60 all around sounds best for music, and 80 all around sounds best for movies / games ... I just would like not to have to switch them every time. I'll keep going with the 60 for fronts and center, and 80 for the rest for now .. Perhaps as Myoda suggestions matching my subs properly would give me better results and allow me to settle on a setup that's good for both:)
Sean Spamilton is online now  
post #16 of 38 Old 04-28-2013, 12:15 AM
AVS Special Member
 
NuSoardGraphite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tucson AZ
Posts: 1,544
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

Mine does that as well for PS3 - I just am trying to find a happy medium so I don't have to manually switch the crossovers when I switch from music to gaming - so I've found 60 all around sounds best for music, and 80 all around sounds best for movies / games ... I just would like not to have to switch them every time. I'll keep going with the 60 for fronts and center, and 80 for the rest for now .. Perhaps as Myoda suggestions matching my subs properly would give me better results and allow me to settle on a setup that's good for both:)

You can set up a "Quick Select" function on your remote that with the touch of a single button, will adjust your inputs, sound modes etc to where you want. That way when you put in an Audio CD to play in your PS3 you can switch the functions to Stereo sound mode and enable/disable other options as necessary with only 1 button.

Stand tall and shake the heavens...
NuSoardGraphite is offline  
post #17 of 38 Old 04-28-2013, 12:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
NuSoardGraphite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tucson AZ
Posts: 1,544
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

Mine does that as well for PS3 - I just am trying to find a happy medium so I don't have to manually switch the crossovers when I switch from music to gaming - so I've found 60 all around sounds best for music, and 80 all around sounds best for movies / games ... I just would like not to have to switch them every time. I'll keep going with the 60 for fronts and center, and 80 for the rest for now .. Perhaps as Myoda suggestions matching my subs properly would give me better results and allow me to settle on a setup that's good for both:)

I did some reading in the manual and I forgot to mention that you can set the crossovers, distance and pretty much the whole speaker setup differently for your Stereo configuration than for your standard multi-channel config. This can be found under the speaker setup menu I believe. It is suggested over on Batpigs website (you HAVE been there right? Any questions you have on your reciever will likely be answered there. check it out) to set your Stereo config to LFE+Main because sometimes when it detects 2.0 signal, it won't output anything to your sub UNLESS you set it to LFE+Main.

Of course, if you plan on using your front speakers as Full speakers along with your Sub, you want it set to LFE+Main anyway. Using this option, you can set your Crossover for multi-channel content to 80hz if thats what you want, then set it to 60hz for Stereo content and the two different settings will be saved. When you switch it to Stereo setting, it should switch everything for you automatically.
Sean Spamilton likes this.

Stand tall and shake the heavens...
NuSoardGraphite is offline  
post #18 of 38 Old 04-28-2013, 01:01 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Sean Spamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 900
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by NuSoardGraphite View Post

You can set up a "Quick Select" function on your remote that with the touch of a single button, will adjust your inputs, sound modes etc to where you want. That way when you put in an Audio CD to play in your PS3 you can switch the functions to Stereo sound mode and enable/disable other options as necessary with only 1 button.

I'll certainly look into this, but there's no way I could set a quick select button to actually change crossover frequencies - i.e. button a sets all at 80 and b sets all at 60... The Denon remote is prettty dumbed down and basic for the 1913 - I assume you mean override another button I'm not using, such as Aux, and assign it only in " 2 channel stereo mode " somehow..
Sean Spamilton is online now  
post #19 of 38 Old 04-28-2013, 01:17 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Sean Spamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 900
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audioguy78 View Post

I have been on this forum for some time now but don't visit or post often.
I will admit I do not have "a lot" of pro experience in HT design and set up other than designing my own (now fairly dated) budget system (and it still needs much improvement), but I do have >13 years in live sound work on stages building and operating sound systems for anything from small events (<100 audience) to large festivals (close to 10,000 concert goers per day) and I have done arena tours and a world tour as well so I am not exactly a "new-be" to sound equipment and acoustics (but not totally up on the home theater front).

What I can add to this talk about subwoofer settings is:
1) the power supply in your multi-channel receiver is only capable of a certain amount of current which then feeds each of the amplifiers. IF ALL OUTPUTS ARE PLAYED AT THE SAME HIGH LEVEL AT THE SAME TIME then the power supply will be the limiting factor to output power for each channel. Even if you are using 7 amplifiers watching a movie and a loud sound flies around the room (from one speaker to another) then each amplifier should be able to produce the full output power as specced, since the current is only used as the amps play louder sounds and not full time.
2) The less sources of a single sound, the more natural they will sound (in most situations). The biggest cause of unnatural sound is multiple sources of the same sound. Since each source is slightly out of time with the next (for instance if you are 1/2 a foot closer to one speaker than another then there will be a very slight- barely measurable volume level change, but the difference in time between the 2 speakers will cause phase problems that are more apparent- the more distance the lower the effected frequencies. Most frequencies will couple together making it sound louder, but a few frequencies will cancel causing those frequencies to seem to disappear!). This is why receivers have distance controls (or automatic setup that controls this for you now). The only problem with this is if you are not in "the sweet spot" then you wil not assume the benefit of the time correcting controls! IF you don't believe me then listen to your pink noise play... In a perfect world the tonal quality of the pink noise will be the same from all speakers. Now make a disc or file of pink noise and make it play in all speakers at once... move around and you will easily hear the coupling and cancelling of different frequencies as you move around the room!
3) Low frequencies are also more prone to the cancellations (above) being noticeable. Due to room modes alone, you will hear each speaker's natural sound coupling with reflections of walls. These 2 "sources" will cause coupling and cancelling (most cancelling will be in the higher frequencies of the sub unless your in a very large room). Now if you play your main speakers at full range and your sub plays the lows along with the mains then remember each of the main speakers have main sounds and reflections as well and they are all adding up and cancelling at your ears. Most rooms wont have "cancellations" below 100-150 hz (estimated) due to the rooms being too small; all sounds below will couple and be louder at those frequencies; large rooms will have lower frequency cancellations.
4) Low frequencies are less efficient to reproduce in most speaker systems, and require more power to produce the desired levels. even if your main speakers are capable of producing "sub" frequencies in order for them to do so requires more power amplification. Speakers should be capable of producing all frequencies within their range clearly but some people have found slight improvements when the speakers don't need to produce as many sounds at one time. Some concert tours have gone as far as flying 2 separate pa systems side by side and routing the sounds of main vocals and certain key instruments thru one system while the rest of the program plays thru the other because the clarity is slightly greater (this is for major tours with open-ended budgets, and very few major tours actually went this route).

With all this in mind, IF you have the proper power available to power your "large" speakers then the benefits of producing all your sound thru your mains will be noticed (and louder, more dynamic passages wont be limited by system resources). With most receivers (rated ~100w/ch and probably not accurately rated and really doing less for long term use) you may be better off sending all your low frequency energy to your subwoofer which has a separate amplifier, hopefully more powerful to handle the low frequencies; and the speaker and enclosure is tuned better for these low frequencies; at the same time the amps in the receiver don't need to work as hard since they are relieved of the hardest job of the system and the main speakers don't need to produce nearly as much program and can concentrate on the rest of the sounds in the room.

Remember, however, that in h.t. use, most of your sound is being produced by the center channel and that is what really needs to be the clearest so setting a higher high-pass filter on this and leaving the l/r to play lower frequencies may benefit the system.

Whatever you do, remember a couple of things: the "LFE" (.1) channel is programmed with sounds as high as 120hz so its not a good idea to set it lower with the subwoofer's lp filter; use the reciever's lp filter if you can to control the sub because (I believe but could be wrong) that the receiver will route the lfe sound appropriately (if you set it to <80 then I believe it will send the 80-120 material to your mains? someone correct me if I am wrong.) or it will send the full LFE sounds to the sub and only use the crossover filters to control sounds originally routed to main speakers. You want all frequencies to go to a speaker capable of reproducing the sounds, so don't let the fronts play full range (no filter) unless they really can play full range, or else any sub-bass sound in the program may not make it to the room!

I found that in my system (without any special eq or room deadening material other than couches) it is hard to make the subwoofer transparent and I can hear where it is, and the only real way to make it really mate well with the system is to use low crossover / lp filters on it, so the main speakers need to be able to produce low enough frequencies to make the crossover transparent (crossover being the frequency/ies from the l/c/r to the sub, not a particular piece of equipment)

These are all ideas to consider, not direct directions of how to set up your system. There is no "perfect" solution and all systems will have a compromise somewhere so understanding all the details will help you choose the best compromise.

I found that the reading material on the Hsu Research website for sub placement and sub setting is not the same as most people recommend, but from an acoustical analysis point of view I found it very helpful in making some decisions in how to set up my system, and I recommend reading it for further ideas (not anything I pointed out here, so it is all new!)

Wow, some great information here. This reasoning is what I've been working with, as my avr is just that; ~90 wpc ... probably not accurately rated. I do have the Low pass filter set all the way up to 120 ( max ) on my sub, as I assumed with the AVR taking care of the cutoffs, it would only send whatever lfe the avr was set at. So if I'm understanding correctly ( and indeed this is what I thought before ) if the avr sets mains to 60 - all lfe below that is sent to the sub to handle below 60, and it doesn't really matter if I set the low pass on the actual sub to 120, as the sub is just getting the 60 and below ( or whatever I set the AVR to cutoff at ) to process. My speakers ( psb T5 ) can handle down to 35 or so - probably 40 to be safe, but obviously the sub can handle lower, and as they're powered with their own amps, AND with bigger woofers, can handle the LFE much better, regardless. So the theory is that letting the sub handle all the lower frequencies below a certain point, be it 60 or 80 or what have you, takes power strain off the AVR as it doesn't have to drive those frequencies with it's own power, thus allowing it to utilize it's power for frequencies above what you've got your lfe crossover at, thereby making the mids and highs a little more clear - am I right? -
Also, if I understand correctly, the biggest strain on the AVR would be running music in Multi Channel - as it's got the same level hitting all the speakers at once, where as home theater has different levels per channel - but if this is the case, then it would be best to set a higher cutoff for multi channel, at 80 all around - to relieve stress on the amp - yes?
Sean Spamilton is online now  
post #20 of 38 Old 04-28-2013, 01:23 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Sean Spamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 900
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by NuSoardGraphite View Post

I did some reading in the manual and I forgot to mention that you can set the crossovers, distance and pretty much the whole speaker setup differently for your Stereo configuration than for your standard multi-channel config. This can be found under the speaker setup menu I believe. It is suggested over on Batpigs website (you HAVE been there right? Any questions you have on your reciever will likely be answered there. check it out) to set your Stereo config to LFE+Main because sometimes when it detects 2.0 signal, it won't output anything to your sub UNLESS you set it to LFE+Main.

Of course, if you plan on using your front speakers as Full speakers along with your Sub, you want it set to LFE+Main anyway. Using this option, you can set your Crossover for multi-channel content to 80hz if thats what you want, then set it to 60hz for Stereo content and the two different settings will be saved. When you switch it to Stereo setting, it should switch everything for you automatically.

I have been through Batpigs website several times - " Denon Manuals in plain English " .. but will go through it again. I think my original subject is getting convoluted though, I'm not worried about having the amp switch to 2 channel only mode instead of automatically defaulting to PLIIX - and can easily change it to multi channel surround in my music / media player ( XBMC ) ... I was originally interested concerned about the logic of having multiple cutoff frequencies while listening to music, basically worried that the lack of LFE continuity between speakers would be somehow a detriment to the source ( be it stereo, or pliix or multichannel ). Basically I was trying to make sure there was no problem with having one speaker set to 80 while others were set to 60 at the same time...
Sean Spamilton is online now  
post #21 of 38 Old 04-28-2013, 01:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
A9X-308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 5,770
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 338 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

especially with the crude low-quality electronic filtering of a receiver.
As it's done in a DSP, how exactly is it cruder than an implementation in another DSP in one of your pet brands when it gives the same response? Your ignorance is staggering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

ridiculous, and should be ignored.
Yes, you should.
A9X-308 is offline  
post #22 of 38 Old 04-28-2013, 03:30 PM
Senior Member
 
Badouri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 357
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The Cambridge Audio 551R would be my first choice, by a mile, because you get a huge power supply...

Azur 551R weight: 10.0Kg (22lbs)
Badouri is offline  
post #23 of 38 Old 04-28-2013, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Sean Spamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 900
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by myoda View Post

Sean:

Eliminate the Denon sub - it was part of a home theater in a box system, and really does not match up well with the Klipsch sub. I betcha if you dump that sub, run audyssey again, things should smooth out. Ideally, if I were you, don't listen to the man behind the curtain about upgrading your receiver. Upgrading your sub will give you more accurate, tighter bass when listening to multichannel music, and good LFE when watching movies. Your speakers deserve a better sub, or two.

Ok, I bought a matching sub today and got rid of the Denon .. managed to scratch 40 bucks from the Denon, and talked a guy down to 180 inc. tax brand new matching klipsch, so all in all only spent 140 bucks. It does actually make a big difference smile.gif surprisingly enough ( for me ) - but you knew that all along wink.gif ... so now have two klipsch KW-100 subs .. not hugely powerful, but they work together very effectively from what I've seen so far - I actually couldn't turn them up any more and not get evicted as is, and the knobs are at 5 / 12 ( resulting in an auddessy level of -0.5 which Is right where I want to be ).

How is it every question I post on hear ends with me buying more AV equipment? lol.
Sean Spamilton is online now  
post #24 of 38 Old 04-28-2013, 09:21 PM
Senior Member
 
Avgass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

As it's done in a DSP, how exactly is it cruder than an implementation in another DSP in one of your pet brands when it gives the same response? Your ignorance is staggering.
Yes, you should.

+1

The electronic crossover in a receiver is one of the best additions to modern AV receivers! You should always cross-over (ie. run an electronic high-pass/low-pass filter arrangement) where possible. Subs of the same calibre of whichever speakers you are running will always be more capable of producing accurate lows. This even applies to "ultimate" speakers such as a Revel Salon2 or a B&W 801D. Sure these can go to 20Hz but appropriate subs to match speakers of this ilk can do <10Hz in-room and can be placed more optimally for bass frequencies than front speakers which have to be placed where the sound field dictates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badouri View Post

Azur 551R weight: 10.0Kg (22lbs)

+1

http://www.hometheater.com/content/cambridge-audio-azur-551r-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

This is not a powerful receiver and would only be a match for the lower cost Yamaha, Pioneer or Sony models you dismissed. It would get eaten by their higher end products.
For comparison this is what a reasonably powerful receiver can do...

http://www.hometheater.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr3010-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

commsysman - I'm sure you just intend to help your fellow AV enthusiasts, but I must disagree with all of the points you made if only to prevent the spread of fiction.
Avgass is offline  
post #25 of 38 Old 04-28-2013, 10:27 PM
Member
 
Audioguy78's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: South Florida
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I must say the onkyo looks impressive specs-wise, but I must ask how does it sound? I used to own an onkyo receiver, which I obtained from my father. It was an earlier surround sound unit probably circa 1997 or so, and was a thx certified unit so not their cheap stuff. My dad told me that after switching to a Yamaha unit his system sounded much better, more warm and natural sounding, and the onkyo was very "digital" sounding but lacked body and thickness when listening to music. I used it for a while and when it failed I bought a marantz and could hear the difference he was referring to. I'm just saying watts are not everything! Especially considering it takes 10x the electrical power to produce 2x the acoustical gain, the difference between 80 and 100 watts is barely noticeable! Granted, once you start running out of power you will hear the distortion and the ability of an amplifier to produce the necessary power for the time it is being called upon will determine if it is a clean and powerful enough amp but the overall sound quality of the circuit should make a bigger impact on where to spend your money than which one has a couple of extra watts in their measurement!
Did you know that the reading is based on that 4 or 8 ohm load but your speaker has different impedance based on the frequency it is reproducing, so only at a couple of frequencies is the amp really driving the load you based your measurements on! The point is, theoretically amps are not supoposed to color the sound, but in realty they do, so rather than looking for a published specification people should discuss how the amp sounds, or what type of circuit they used to design the amp, if it uses ic amplifiers or discrete components (if any if them still do these days?) All those questions will dictate the build quality of an amplifier and define how ir sounds in the long run, not this one has 157.6 watts but that one produced 142.2 at 8 ohms! I have used crown macrotech 3600's that sound way better than a qsc powerlight series amp with twice the rated output power! The crown lasts longer too without blowing up its switching mode power supply for no reason at all! I would rather use the qsc if I need to pound my subs for 5000 people, but I would prefer the crown all day long on the whole system if it's a smaller venue and im not running the system balls to the wall and actually want it to sound pristine (not that a crown macrotech isn't good at balls to the wall but if a qsc digital amp has twice the rated power, say a pl480, that will definitely play louder cleaner than the macro 3600).
The point is a well designed circuit can be better than a newer circuit with higher power ratings, in the long run, if used properly.
Audioguy78 is offline  
post #26 of 38 Old 04-28-2013, 11:20 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Sean Spamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 900
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audioguy78 View Post

I must say the onkyo looks impressive specs-wise, but I must ask how does it sound? I used to own an onkyo receiver, which I obtained from my father. It was an earlier surround sound unit probably circa 1997 or so, and was a thx certified unit so not their cheap stuff. My dad told me that after switching to a Yamaha unit his system sounded much better, more warm and natural sounding, and the onkyo was very "digital" sounding but lacked body and thickness when listening to music. I used it for a while and when it failed I bought a marantz and could hear the difference he was referring to. I'm just saying watts are not everything! Especially considering it takes 10x the electrical power to produce 2x the acoustical gain, the difference between 80 and 100 watts is barely noticeable! Granted, once you start running out of power you will hear the distortion and the ability of an amplifier to produce the necessary power for the time it is being called upon will determine if it is a clean and powerful enough amp but the overall sound quality of the circuit should make a bigger impact on where to spend your money than which one has a couple of extra watts in their measurement!

I'm only regurgitating what I've gleaned from various posts and opinions, but the NEW Onkyo's are said to be pretty good. Even as recent as the beginning of last year I wouldn't even think of touching one due to what I heard were hardware failures .. however most of the problems from what I understand were actually software related and fixed with firmware updates. I've also heard that Yamaha's are actually a very bright sounding amp, so obviously everyone's got a different opinion. It seems the best choice would be to audition different amps, however the chances that a store has your speakers through which to audition the amp is slim.. at least in my case. With respect to the higher end Onkyo's .. I know that they have Auddessey XT32 - and that's HUGE for me. I also understand that this years version of the Denon 3313 ( the E- whatever they decide to number it at ) will also have it included. At this point, I'd lean towards the AVR with that on board regardless of the make, though I'm biased towards Denon, in that I've used these for a while and I like the warmth, - then again, the Onkyo's have THX which might be fun to play with as well. I'd definitely take one of these over a Merantz, Anthem, or Cambridge - regardless of how heavy or well built their respective units are, as I believe that this level of room correction far outweighs any shortcomings in terms of build ( though at the 1000 dollar price range they can't be built THAT bad, can they? ) ... and indeed would surpass the latter brands in terms of sound quality because of it.
I guess the only way to actually test that theory out is to take a fine AVR from the three I mentioned home and pit it against the AVR with XT32 and see after running through set up- which one was better! - Note: I can NOT afford this smile.gif , Anyone up to the challenge?
Sean Spamilton is online now  
post #27 of 38 Old 04-28-2013, 11:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
A9X-308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 5,770
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 338 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audioguy78 View Post

the onkyo was very "digital" sounding
What the hell does 'digital sounding' mean?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audioguy78 View Post

The point is, theoretically amps are not supoposed to color the sound, but in realty they do,
By and large, unless incompetently designed or deliberately designed to have a signature and therefore not accurate, modern SS amplifiers operating within their power limits do not have a sound.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audioguy78 View Post

so rather than looking for a published specification people should discuss how the amp sounds, or what type of circuit they used to design the amp, if it uses ic amplifiers or discrete components (if any if them still do these days?) All those questions will dictate the build quality of an amplifier and define how ir sounds in the long run
Most people have no idea of the technical differences between circuits, so discussing differences in topology is meaningless, or will be misconstrued by their lack of understanding. Discussing sound through a sighted non level matched evaluation is equally useless as it will be full of the biases of the reviewer.

Quality of design/topology and they way it's built have no direct relationship with each other.
A9X-308 is offline  
post #28 of 38 Old 04-29-2013, 03:59 AM
Senior Member
 
Avgass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Hi Audioguy,

I never said the Cambridge wasn't a good amp. I have no reason to believe it isn't every bit as good as all the other well reviewed equipment that Cambridge makes. In fact the very article with which those measurements were linked gives the 551R a five star rating for sound quality! I was merely pointing out that this Azur receiver is not one of the more powerful options.

I also agree that the difference in perceived loudness for a given wattage increase is more subtle than most would realise. However the difference in the sound of two modern, well designed amps is far more subtle. Minor enough to be not worth worrying too much about.

The assertion that the linked amp tests are somehow flawed so much so that they are not a useful indication of amp performance is at best clutching straws. The impedances tested are very close to the reactive load a speaker presents and the minimum resistance of a speaker will generally not be so far below this value that it would significantly change the relative performance of the measured units.

Of far more impact are the auto eq options packaged with each of the receivers. I have a yamaha rx-v1900 from a few years ago which sounds great. I would replace it with my mate's onkyo tx-nr1010 in a heartbeat. The amps largely sound the same but the multeqXT32 on the onkyo is awesome.
Sean Spamilton likes this.
Avgass is offline  
post #29 of 38 Old 04-29-2013, 02:49 PM
Member
 
Audioguy78's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: South Florida
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I know alot of regulars in this forum are dissecting everything I am saying and trying to call me out. Nothing I wrote is supposed to be bashing anybody or telling then they are wrong in what they are discussing or recommending, I and simply trying to help by trekking puerile what I know from my own experiences and knowledge.

I never meant to pick on any one person's particular comment about any particular gear (but I did display my feelings toward one brand based on previous experience from an older model). It was stated that the Cambridge unit has a heavier duty power supply and I recognise that as a good thing and if I had to bet it would be one of the better sounding units. All I was trying to point out was that it seems like everybody is obsessed with whichever claims or tests the highest power output, even if by only a couple of watts, and I was trying to enlighten whomever believes that is the best way to pick a receiver that there at many other things more important than the number of watts . one thing that was just mentioned is the dsp power and that is definitely one of the most important details.

What is "digital sounding"? The best way I can put it is lack of warmth. If you listen to a well recorded and mastered cd, then record it to a computer mp3 using the line input in your sound card and play it back again, while ab-ing the original disc with the computer, you will hear what I and taking about.
The warmth will be less noticeable with spoken voice or most movies but if you play music often you will enjoy a "better" sounding amplifier.
I understand that most people don't understand the difference between different circuit topologies but a forum where smart people compare different gear seems like a good place to bring it up and enlighten those who didn't know!

And the comment that all modern solid state amps have no sound is sorely mistaken. Every amp has is own design and although many manufacturers may use a similar scheme, each is different and well sound as such. Now, with the digital age in full effect, every channel has not only a solid state circuit but digital circuits and d/a converters. The quality and design of every part is unique!
I can't speak very much for the particulars of the home audio market but I can tell you that in the pro Audio market (includung recording and live sound, my specialty) there Is no perfect Mic preamp or a/d converter. Every analog console (which are quickly becoming rare in the pro market) has a unique sound, mackies tend to sound "digital" and Midas consoles don't but they also cost 10x the price! Many engineers will mix on a Yamaha pm5d which msrp's for something like 50-60k but they always prefer to put a separate word clock on it because it improves the sound of the digital circuits, improves stereo imaging and bass tightness! You can buy a Dolby lake processor which will run circles around a beginner digital crossover, both in sound quality and features.
Many amplifiers in the pro world are now "digital class" because of much improved efficiency and lower weight, causing much more power output per channel (see powersoft k series on google) but few of them really sound better than a good class a or an amplifier, but again every one sounds different!
With so much diversity in gear, u think if a completely transparent amplifier circuit was available it would be available to the pro market? All we wasn't to do is hear things at the output the easy we put it in at the input , just like you!
Agaiot trying to try anybody, just share my knowledge so everybody is happier with their purchase and understand their gear! And I did and will again admit I am not completely in tune with all of the offerings of the ht market but I do have a great understanding of the audio electronics field as a whole and ant bug advances in electronics related directly to audio.
Audioguy78 is offline  
post #30 of 38 Old 04-29-2013, 02:51 PM
Member
 
Audioguy78's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: South Florida
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Excuse any typos, I put that whole thing on a cell phone!
Audioguy78 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Audio Theory, Setup, and Chat

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off