How do I improve bass sound with super audio cd's - AVS Forum
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I was comparing the difference between super audio and dts surround sound with the Genesis Selling England by the Pound cd. More specifically the song firth of fifth. There is a significant difference when the bass pedals kick in their much more prominent but not overkill with dts. Are super audio CDs just lacking bass as I noticed this previously with a couple other SA CDs. I have a pretty decent system that I invested about 10k in is there something I can change in the settings or can I raise the volume knob in the back of the sub. I thought that I had read after you set up audyessy you shouldn't change any of rhose settings. Anyone have a similar experience or suggestions on how to improve the sound?
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:06 PM
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How is your player connected to your AVR when playing the DTS disc? And the SACD?

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Old 05-01-2013, 04:21 PM
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After reading the following from my Denon manual I wonder if DTS-CDs contain higher bass levels than other types of discs?

LFE
For proper playback of the different sources, we recommend setting to the values below.
• Dolby Digital sources : “0dB”
• DTS movie sources : “0dB”
• DTS music sources : “–10dB”

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Old 05-01-2013, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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I have both hdmi and the five analog connections but for the comparison I was using the hdmi for both with audyssey
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Old 05-01-2013, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

After reading the following from my Denon manual I wonder if DTS-CDs contain higher bass levels than other types of discs?

LFE
For proper playback of the different sources, we recommend setting to the values below.
• Dolby Digital sources : “0dB”
• DTS movie sources : “0dB”
• DTS music sources : “–10dB”
Do you mean your AVR's manual or a universal player's manual? How old is the AVR/universal player?

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Old 05-01-2013, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gladiator1634 View Post

I have both hdmi and the five analog connections but for the comparison I was using the hdmi for both with audyssey
Yeah, I was trying to get at whether this might be due to differences in bass management if you were using, for example, an optical connection for the DTS disc but your multichannel analog connection for the SACD. Assuming your are certain that you are using the HDMI connection for both, though, would, essentially, rule that out.

You may want to ask about this in the surround music subforum, too. The Genesis discs are pretty popular. There may be someone who can shed some light.

Also, you may find something relevant in the forums here:
http://www.stevehoffman.tv/



Just out of curiosity, to what size are your speakers set in your AVR? And what player and AVR do you have? Can your AVR bass manage its multichannel analog inputs? If not (most can't), do you have your player set up to bass manage its multichannel analog outputs? Have you made the comparison between the DTS disc and SACD utilizing the multichannel analog connection and if so were the results similar?

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Old 05-01-2013, 05:36 PM
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Sorry, AVR/Denon 4311.

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Old 05-01-2013, 06:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I have my speakers Vandersteen 3a sigs and center channel vcc5 set to small 60hz crossover . My receiver is a marantz sr7005 and Cambridge audio dvd99 player. I don't think I have bass management with analog outputs. I haven't made the comparison with analog as my listening room is not an ideal set up big room high ceilings lots of tile. Even with room treatments analog just doesn't match the audyssey room correction sound
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:18 PM
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OP, you might want to check out this thread:

"The LFE bug"
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

After reading the following from my Denon manual I wonder if DTS-CDs contain higher bass levels than other types of discs?

LFE
For proper playback of the different sources, we recommend setting to the values below.
• Dolby Digital sources : “0dB”
• DTS movie sources : “0dB”
• DTS music sources : “–10dB”
When DTS CDs were first being released, they did contain higher levels of bass than needed. An article in Widescreen Review (Issue 35, Nov/Dec 1999) explained the error was due to miscalibrating the subwoofer in the mastering system. So later titles, like Alan Parsons' "On Air" have the LFE at correct levels.

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Old 05-02-2013, 09:07 AM
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Interesting, thanks Roger. I'll try to find that article.

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Old 05-02-2013, 10:35 AM
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You may want to make sure that the SACD stream is not read in MULTI CH DIRECT mode which would disable bass management and EQ.
in Denon 4311, clicking the "standard" button on the remote would toggle between MULTI CH IN and MULTI CH DIRECT.
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

Interesting, thanks Roger. I'll try to find that article.
It's just a small part of a long interview with MiCasa studio guys. Here's the short part that deals with this LFE matter:
Quote:
Biles: Originally we would set our sub level so that it had the same energy as the
center channel did. We quickly realized this was a mistake and adopted the ITU in-band alignment standard for our 5.1 digital remix and remastering studio.

WSR Reber: This is the practice that has been historically adopted by Dolby
Laboratories.

Biles: Exactly.

WSR Reber: But I have been told that the standard that Dolby adopted was not
shared with DTS?

Margouleff: Originally, we based our mixes on equal energy coming from all speakers including the subwoofer. But when our 5.1 music mixes were played on a home theatre system that was set up for film playback, the subwoofer level would just knock you out of your chair.

WSR Reber: The problem occurs on the surround processor side of the equation. With the exception of the Millennium DTS® Digital Surround processor which had no Dolby® Digital capability, home theatre equipment manufacturers were building the processors according to Dolby specifications in which an automatic plus 10dB of bass boost was directed to the LFE channel. The boost was to compensate for the -10dB signal level assigned to the .1 LFE channel by Dolby. So if your DTS mixes were set at 0dB, and the consumer’s processor was set to a 10dB boost, then DTS mixes would be +10dB louder than Dolby Digital mixes in the .1 LFE channel. And WOW! That is whatwas happening in all those early mixes, because no one was talking to each other to come up with an agreement on a level that would be the standard to which both codec systems would adhere and manufacturers would build accordingly. Competition is an interesting phenomenon, and here, the two competing digital surround formats were operating in isolation to one another.

Margouleff: I think that is settled now.
I think it is kind of funny how Reber felt the need to cast MiCasa's error as Dolby's fault. rolleyes.gif Both systems were being sourced from the same soundtracks made with the same standards.

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Old 05-02-2013, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

After reading the following from my Denon manual I wonder if DTS-CDs contain higher bass levels than other types of discs?

LFE
For proper playback of the different sources, we recommend setting to the values below.
• Dolby Digital sources : “0dB”
• DTS movie sources : “0dB”
• DTS music sources : “–10dB”
Quote:
Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

Sorry, AVR/Denon 4311.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

When DTS CDs were first being released, they did contain higher levels of bass than needed. An article in Widescreen Review (Issue 35, Nov/Dec 1999) explained the error was due to miscalibrating the subwoofer in the mastering system. So later titles, like Alan Parsons' "On Air" have the LFE at correct levels.

Yeah, it is interesting that that is still in the manual of a 4311. I think it is probably just a remnant that has been in the manuals for a decade or so. More recently released DTS music discs should not require the -10dB LFE attenuation. The Genesis discs should be encoded properly, at least in this respect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by donutfan View Post

OP, you might want to check out this thread:

"The LFE bug"
I guess it is possible that it is this, although this was worked out a few years back, too. If you can pass both bitstream and PCM with your player, gladiator1634, you may want to see if there are differences in the bass management.

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Old 05-02-2013, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

You may want to make sure that the SACD stream is not read in MULTI CH DIRECT mode which would disable bass management and EQ.
in Denon 4311, clicking the "standard" button on the remote would toggle between MULTI CH IN and MULTI CH DIRECT.
He said he is using an HDMI connection for both the DTS disc and the SACD; not his multichannel analog connection.

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Old 05-02-2013, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Quote:
You may want to make sure that the SACD stream is not read in MULTI CH DIRECT mode which would disable bass management and EQ.
in Denon 4311, clicking the "standard" button on the remote would toggle between MULTI CH IN and MULTI CH DIRECT.
He said he is using an HDMI connection for both the DTS disc and the SACD; not his multichannel analog connection.

SACD decoding is most likely done by the player and multichannel PCM is sent over (via HDMI in this case). At least that's my experience.
I connect my HTPC via HDMI. DTS or DOLBY encoded content is bit-streamed and decoded by the AVR where as DVDA tracks come in as multichannel PCM.
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

You may want to make sure that the SACD stream is not read in MULTI CH DIRECT mode which would disable bass management and EQ.
in Denon 4311, clicking the "standard" button on the remote would toggle between MULTI CH IN and MULTI CH DIRECT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

He said he is using an HDMI connection for both the DTS disc and the SACD; not his multichannel analog connection.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

SACD decoding is most likely done by the player and multichannel PCM is sent over (via HDMI in this case). At least that's my experience.
I connect my HTPC via HDMI. DTS or DOLBY encoded content is bit-streamed and decoded by the AVR where as DVDA tracks come in as multichannel PCM.
Ah, I see. I thought the MULTI CH IN and MULTI CH DIRECT were the AVR's settings for the multi analog inputs.

Often you have a choice whether you pass bitstream or multichannel PCM from a player to an AVR. Wiith SACD, I believe the choices would probably be DSD vs. multichannel PCM, depending upon the player and AVR's capabilities.

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Old 05-02-2013, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I understand the how the direct and pure direct work as I previously had a denon 4802 set up in a different house in ny in a room where analog sounded awesome. I have since moved my system to Florida and replaced the Denon as it didnt have hdmi with the marantz and an emotiva xpa-3 but the room is much more challenging and the audyssey sounds better than using the analog connection. Along with bass issues with sacd using hdmi I am also having another issue. The room as i mentioned earlier has a lot of tile, windows and open space and even with some of the treatments I added (rugs,curtains,book shelves)is still a little bright. When I run audyssey strangely the graph equalizer shows 4k and 8k almost maxed out. on my Vandersteen speakers I can manually adjust each tweater and midrange + or - 3db. If I turn one or both of them down will that help with the brightness? I am now starting to understand how important the room is than the actual equipment.
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Old 05-02-2013, 05:48 PM
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Your Genesis discs are well beyond the problem dates for DTS-CD. I suspect you have an LFE bug or bass managment issue in your player, when it converts DSD to PCM. The Cambridge Audio dvd99 dates from 2007. Now note the start date of that LFE bug thread....though afaic LFE bug is typically an AVR issue. My 4311 doesn't seem to have it, but I don't have the Genesis SACD to compare.

When I did have a rig that had the LFE bug (PCM bass was too low compared to bitstream DTS/DD), I compensated for it by boosting the .1 channel by 10db in the player-- my Oppo 970 allowed this (because it automatically created 15 db or so of headroom whenever it was dealing with PCM .1)

Also, make sure bass management is OFF in your player!. Your Denon AVR should be doing that exclusively.
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Old 05-02-2013, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

When I did have a rig that had the LFE bug (PCM bass was too low compared to bitstream DTS/DD), I compensated for it by boosting the .1 channel by 10db in the player-- my Oppo 970 allowed this (because it automatically created 15 db or so of headroom whenever it was dealing with PCM .1)
Just for clarification, the Oppo's bass management applies -15 dB to the bass redirected from the main channels, then sums that with LFE with -5 dB, so the net subwoofer output has the +10 dB bias for the LFE relative to the others. The extra 5 dB is needed to allow headroom for the confluence of all the channels.

Yes, when the player has bass management turned off (all speakers = Large), the LFE is sitting the at -5 dB. You can add 5 dB with a guarantee of no clipping even for 0 dBFS in the LFE (which happens in movies) as that just brings it back to "nominal," or add 10 dB for music (I suspect they do not hammer it like a movie, but I have not checked the Telarc 1812...).

Nevertheless, even with +10 dB dialed into the subwoofer output, it is still 5 dB shy of where it needs be. You'd have to set it to +15 dB to create the correct relationships. An alternative would be set the Sub to +5 dB and all the mains -10 dB. Then it will remain unclipped no matter what is played.

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Old 05-03-2013, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Just for clarification, the Oppo's bass management applies -15 dB to the bass redirected from the main channels, then sums that with LFE with -5 dB, so the net subwoofer output has the +10 dB bias for the LFE relative to the others. The extra 5 dB is needed to allow headroom for the confluence of all the channels.

Yes, when the player has bass management turned off (all speakers = Large), the LFE is sitting the at -5 dB. You can add 5 dB with a guarantee of no clipping even for 0 dBFS in the LFE (which happens in movies) as that just brings it back to "nominal," or add 10 dB for music (I suspect they do not hammer it like a movie, but I have not checked the Telarc 1812...).

Nevertheless, even with +10 dB dialed into the subwoofer output, it is still 5 dB shy of where it needs be. You'd have to set it to +15 dB to create the correct relationships. An alternative would be set the Sub to +5 dB and all the mains -10 dB. Then it will remain unclipped no matter what is played.

Roger, I actually forget (the Oppo having been mothballed long ago in favor of file-based streaming) whether the max that could be dialed in was +10 or +15 dB, or whether I did the +5/-10 trick you described.
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