Blu-Ray 7.1 variations - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 05-04-2013, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi all.
I thought had this last generation of gear nailed down.
Elite BDP23 to VSX39 by 8X RCA inputs 'Multi Channels In'.
Speakers laid out by the book for LCR, Sr, SBk +sub.
Bought a couple of BDs bargain bin, 'Stargate' and 'The Arrival', both for checking DTS-HDMA.

BPD23 will show format information.

Stargate shows C LR LFE1 LsrRsr LssRss

The Arrival shows C LR LsRs LFE1 LwRw

Whew!
?'s

1 Should I assume Lsr, Lss are Left surround rear, Left surround side?
2 Assume Lw is Left wide?
3 Are the signals routed to the closest speaker without intervention - by label or position? It bothers me that they don't seem to be in a rational order - after the first 3 channels, they differ from each other for channel 4 as listed (LFE1 vs Ls) and so on.
4 Similar to 3, does the gear know to route the most optional channels to the last 2 speaker channels - LoptionRoption to LbackRback wherever they may be?
5 Did the sound mixer really expect me to move my surround back speakers up to in between the LR main and the surrounds - or just rotate the sides and back 'forward' 1 position each?

I understand that the sound mixer would want to have options, but it seems that somewhere there would be an option for how the system was wired before this movie showed up.
How do you tell a builder to pre-wire with so many options? If the 2 beyond 5.1 could be back, high, or wide per individual BD do you have to have 11.1 wires/positions?

Thank for listening!
THS
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post #2 of 24 Old 05-04-2013, 11:27 AM
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Movies with 7.1 soundtracks are mixed with 3 channels in front, 2 channels at the sides and 2 channels behind. In commercial theatres, each surround channel is reproduced by an array of surround speakers. Some of those speakers can be forward of your listening position and some will be behind your listening position. So there is no precise location, for example, for the left surround channel. The sound from that channel is coming from ALL the surround speakers on the left side of the auditorium. BTW, the speakers located forward of you are not wide speakers, since there are no wide channels in 7.1 mixes.

At home, each surround channel is typically reproduced by one surround speaker. Where you place those surround speakers is up to you. The side speakers can be place forward of your listening position, directly to the sides of your listening position or slightly behind your listening position. Same with rear speakers: spread is up to you, as long as they're not so far apart that they blend into the side speakers and there is no meaningful separation between the sides and rears, thereby defeating the purpose of using 4 surrounds.

If you're doing a 7.1 layout at home, then use the channels as a guide for speaker layout: 3 in front, 2 at your sides, 2 behind you. The precise speaker placement angles aren't as critical as getting the basic directions correct. There's plenty of room for flexibility depending on your preference.

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post #3 of 24 Old 05-04-2013, 12:10 PM
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Stop making sense. You're taking all the mystery out of it. wink.gif

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post #4 of 24 Old 05-04-2013, 04:37 PM
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. . . but . . . but . . . I'm confused . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by tshep View Post

BPD23 will show format information.

Stargate shows C LR LFE1 LsrRsr LssRss

The Arrival shows C LR LsRs LFE1 LwRw
This is what I think is the point: Both discs are 7.1, but "The Arrival" seems to have dropped the rear-surrounds and replaced them with wides. How is that going to play correctly if your speakers are arranged with rears? Do you need to re-arrange your speakers for different titles?
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post #5 of 24 Old 05-04-2013, 05:11 PM
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Lw and Rw are part of speaker re-mapping configuration 6 (7.1 channels: L, C, R, LFE, Ls, Rs, Lw, Rw) in the dts-HD Whitepaper. This feature allows 7 different speaker layouts, including heights, wides and overhead center in the mix. But confusingly in the paper the diagram is the same as config. 4, which shows height instead of wide.

The catch is, speaker re-mapping feature is not widely available, I only know some Cambridge Audio AVRs have a smaller subset. Basically a feature hardly anyone uses.

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #6 of 24 Old 05-04-2013, 05:14 PM
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I don't think that information is from the disc itself, but rather the avr's interpretation or recommendation per se (maybe like some AVRs interpret Audyssey speaker/sub crossover points). Does the AVR's manual cover that?

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post #7 of 24 Old 05-04-2013, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
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sdurani - got all that - that was what I tried to convey by 'laid out by the book' I did angles, distances, everything for DD and DTS 7.1 as per their sites.

Mark seems to get it -
I'm not sure - that LwRw, LsrRsr, and LssRss mean wide, surround rear, and surround side - those are my guesses. Is there a published standard convention?
The player is either getting it, or figuring it it somehow - it displays a difference.
If they do, then does the sound guy have options (3 or more) for the 7th and 8th channels? (As well as the order of all of them?)
Do I move wires, speakers as they use these apparent options? (Optionally, might my equipment know and remix (re-order) per my speaker setup?)

Any replies welcome!!
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post #8 of 24 Old 05-04-2013, 05:22 PM
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It's a feature of the dts-HD encoding and therefore is on the disc. Nothing to do with Audyssey.

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #9 of 24 Old 05-04-2013, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

It's a feature of the dts-HD encoding and therefore is on the disc. Nothing to do with Audyssey.

Thanks, did not know that discs had that specific of a channel assignment detail from what I'd read so far on 7 ch recording. Is it only certain bd players incorporating a display for the info? The avrs don't detect it at all? If you had all the speakers hooked up would it automatically select the 7 ch configuration appropriate?

PS did not mean to imply it had anything to do with Audyssey...just an analogy to what many people assume is an Audyssey suggestion on audio crossover when in fact it is the avr manufacturer's choice since Audyssey simply recommends 80hz.

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post #10 of 24 Old 05-04-2013, 06:00 PM
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The Pioneer players of that vintage can display the specific channel info but this is the first time I've seen the wide channel. It must be in the metadata so technically AVRs should know too if fed a digital input. My understanding is the AVR needs to have the speaker re-mapping feature implemented to make the adjustments, it's not done automatically without it. Otherwise I don't see the point in the CA AVR asking you to choose the configuration.

Point taken about the Audyssey analogy.

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #11 of 24 Old 05-04-2013, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tshep View Post

Do I move wires, speakers as they use these apparent options?
If you truly believe that 'The Arrival' was mixed to 7.1 using a pair of speakers at the wide locations, then it would make sense for you to move wires & speakers to the angle you believe those speakers were in the studio. Don't forget to re-calibrate (levels, distances, EQ) any time you move speakers to a different spot in the room.

Sanjay
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post #12 of 24 Old 05-04-2013, 06:40 PM
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Hi Kilian,

Thanks for that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

Lw and Rw are part of speaker re-mapping configuration 6 (7.1 channels: L, C, R, LFE, Ls, Rs, Lw, Rw) in the dts-HD Whitepaper.
.
.
.
. . . It must be in the metadata so technically AVRs should know too if fed a digital input. My understanding is the AVR needs to have the speaker re-mapping feature implemented to make the adjustments, it's not done automatically without it. Otherwise I don't see the point in the CA AVR asking you to choose the configuration.
I guess I'm going to have to find that whitepaper.

So, if you played "The Arrival" on a not-so-bright AVR, what would happen? Would the wide channels come out the rears? Or would they be dropped altogether? Assuming that DTS assigned unique channel identifiers to the wides, I could see the AVR dropping them if it has no place to route them. But it would be smarter to mix them into the appropriate left and right channels. If the system depended on the AVR to correctly interpret the metadata coming over HDMI from the disc, then I can foresee many AVRs getting it wrong.

It also appears to me that, in order to support all of the different configurations, you need a twelve-channel AVR.

I suppose that I really need to find that whitepaper.
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post #13 of 24 Old 05-05-2013, 12:41 AM
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Hi Mark, you're welcome.smile.gif

I don't have the said disc so I really dunno what happens. The reviews don't mention anything unusual about the audio, so either it's an error in the metadata, or if it's really wide, it's not that spatially distinct between front or back or whatever, or the AVR takes care of it 'intelligently' (optimistic view). You're right to be sceptical about the correct handling, based on previous observations.

There's only one paragraph on speaker re-mapping in the paper and searching 'speaker re-mapping' on dts website shows nothing. Looks like dts has moved on as it never caught on.

For one mediocre or at least non-major blockbuster release with unusual channels I'd never move/re-wire anything myself. If I have a standard 7.1 I'd just temporarily configure the AVR as 5.1 if 7.1 sounds strange.

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #14 of 24 Old 05-05-2013, 06:00 AM - Thread Starter
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To be clear...
My AVR is in as pre-amp (and following) only, Multi Channel In is a discrete RCA input system - there is no decoding.
My BD functions as a bits-to-line-level decoder, and has speaker settings, etc before 7.1 RCA outs.
Sheen aside, if the disk 'earned' Blu-ray' labeling, in this day and age, it must be within the platform specs.
I can't imagine folks trying to popularize a spec allowing an (or 2 or 3) option that would require such a severe re-placement of gear without requiring an ability to manage it in the equipment.
And even then, the order is different - do I assume 1-8 had priority (and change order between BD and amp) or that labels have priority and just move surround backs.
By the way, cannot find specs at DTS.com . Re-read BD manual, says specifically surround back, nothing about other options.
I'll try to find that paper.
Anyone else? THX
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post #15 of 24 Old 05-05-2013, 09:53 AM
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As I understand it, speaker remapping is designed to allow the end user to redirect the source arrangement to his own speaker layout. A disc may have a traditional 7.1 mix while a user has a layout with wides instead of rears. The AVR will downmix the rears into the surrounds and extract wide information and send it to the wide speakers. Basically, remapping looks at the layout of the source configuration and does whatever modification is necessary for it to work with the playback configuration. So, no one needs to move speakers based on how the source content was mixed.

Here's a link to a 2009 discussion of remapping. The links to the DTS white paper no longer work. frown.gif
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1123436/dts-remapping

Found the white paper here. smile.gif
http://www.opusproductions.com/pdfs/DTS_HD_WhitePaper.pdf

As for the original question about DTS speaker labels, tshep, you deduced them correctly. I don't think the order matters as the processor will send L to L and so on regardless of the order in which they are shown on the processor display.
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post #16 of 24 Old 05-05-2013, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tshep View Post

Sheen aside, if the disk 'earned' Blu-ray' labeling, in this day and age, it must be within the platform specs.
You're assuming the labeling/metadata is correct.

For initial release in movie theatres, 'The Arrival' was mixed to 5.1 channels. For home video, it was re-mixed to 7.1 by Mi Casa Multimedia.

Here is the front part of Mi Casa's 7.1 mixing/mastering suite:



And the back half:



Poor surround placement aside, do you see any wide speakers in either pic? If not, what does that tell you about the channel labels you found on the Blu-ray of 'The Arrival'?

BTW, Mi Casa also re-mixed 'Stargate' for home video. Same mixing room, different channel labels.

Sanjay
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post #17 of 24 Old 05-05-2013, 11:27 AM
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tshep, what readings do you get when using HDMI instead of your 7.1 analog connections? How does digital information come through an analog connection anyways?

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post #18 of 24 Old 05-05-2013, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
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I found the paper as another posted about it. I'll have to assume my BP is functioning as described. It seems that corrective steering (where source does not match playback setup) is part of the standard. And as that is only the 1 time expense of code, easy to implement.
I'll assume it works like... I see an other-than-scene1 disk, I'll display the scene6 layout, but since I'm a scene1 ONLY device, I'll remap to my configuration. (Maybe my owner will feel compelled to spend more money!)
I'll check for 8 channel output tonight.

lovin.. I don't have any multichannel HDMI devices (I'm all lawyered up with just HDCP).
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post #19 of 24 Old 05-05-2013, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

tshep, what readings do you get when using HDMI instead of your 7.1 analog connections? How does digital information come through an analog connection anyways?
The player would handle the remapping, along with all other digital processing functions, prior to the digital-analog conversion.
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post #20 of 24 Old 05-05-2013, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I played Stargate, listened carefully, checked each speaker - 'traditional' 7.1.
Then played through Arrival, listened carefully, checked each speaker - all 8 were playing, and directed well.
Then, paid good attention to the show.
I believe I heard the wide effect.
It wasn't the screen action (cars traveling across screens), or sound cues (sounds to enhance perception of action), but distinctly the percussion of the sound track (there was a lot for this show - bongos and such) was placed between the L or R and the L or R surrounds. It was as though the back line of the orchestra was wider than the screen action soundstage (just like on a stage). I'm not sure it was worth anything, but it was wider than the action stage, about 1/2 way to the surrounds (and the action distinctly NOT).
Having heard this, I imagine the guy was playing around, despite his lack of speakers at this point, in that way-too-pretty to be used promo pic! The system placed the sound without located speakers. (The wife heard it too, for her side, outside of the Right side main, to the right surround.
Apparently my system both displayed, and then managed the decoding to my basic setup! I couldn't have measured it, but I probably got less Surround back (matrixed from surrounds) and more LR wide.
Thanks all, I enjoyed the paper, and will read further.

lovin - I made sure I got one of the last 7.1 analog out BD players - I have a 'mobile' system and I'm kinda picky about cord count, setup ease, where to aim remotes, etc - all on a budget. So Blu-ray is, well, male-operated-only here, and requires 1 cord to display HD. BD, 8 cords to AVR, and speakers and amps are all in a fixed location, it works for me.
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post #21 of 24 Old 05-05-2013, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tshep View Post

I believe I heard the wide effect.

I imagine the guy was playing around, despite his lack of speakers at this point, in that way-too-pretty to be used promo pic!
If you truly believe it, then it doesn't matter how the disc was really mixed or lack of wide speakers in the pic of the actual room where it was mixed, since you believe that there are wide channels in the soundtrack and those channels are being re-mapped by your player. At this point it seems you're not willing to accept the alternate explanation (incorrect metadata).

Sanjay
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post #22 of 24 Old 05-05-2013, 05:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Why would a possible error based on a promo, non-360* pic carry overwhelming weight against an 'in standard' (though rare) option?
It also seems very plausible that the score would be a separate master track(s) that the guy could play with, with little risk of actually messing up the show - especially if it was old enough to not have a real surround back master track.
(You know, I also see an acoustic guitar - does that mean everything ever mixed there, or on all of that 'studio label' also includes soundman recorded mic'ed guitar?)

I appreciate those who helped me find an answer to this anomaly.
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post #23 of 24 Old 05-05-2013, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tshep View Post

Why would a possible error based on a promo, non-360* pic carry overwhelming weight against an 'in standard' (though rare) option?
You keep referring to it as a "promo" pic, asthough that couldn't possibly be what the speaker layout actually looks like, since that would run counter to your belief about wide channels being in soundtrack. I've been there (15 miles from me) and the room really does look like that. Keep in mind that they also re-mixed 'Stargate' in that room, and that 7.1 mix doesn't include wide channels.

The notion that metadata could be incorrect isn't new. One of the very first (if not the first) uses of the Surround EX flag was for the DVD of 'Pearl Harbor', where the French language track would trigger EX decoding. Problem is, the soundtrack wasn't an EX mix. Disney's 'Atlantis' was an EX mix, and the flag was there in the metadata for the DD track but missing from the metadata for the DTS track. But that didn't mean that the information for the surround-back channel was missing from the DTS track. It was just a labelling error. For those who remember, the "DTS bomb" was caused by an error in the remapping metadata.

Also, if a soundtrack did have wide channels, why would the studio not say so? Lionsgate promoted the fact that three of their recent Blu-ray titles had wide and height channels matrixed into the 7.1 mix. If you missed the studio announcement, you could read about it in the reviews. Why no similar mention for the release of 'The Arrival'? And zero mention in the reviews.

But none of this really matters if you've convinced yourself that your 'Arrival' Blu-ray has wide channels. But then you'd also have to make up a reason why the pic of the mix room shouldn't be trusted. And you would have to "imagine" that the mixer was playing around with wide channels, despite admitting a lack of wide speakers. That's some mental gymnastics to go through just to convince yourself that a Blu-ray released in 1999 had wide channels.

Sanjay
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post #24 of 24 Old 05-06-2013, 02:37 AM
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Oh boy...wasting time over something that was never adopted and arguing isn't going to bring out the truth.

Ever thought of asking the studio or the chap that did the mix just to put it to rest and move on?

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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