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post #91 of 227 Old 06-27-2013, 11:47 AM
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So if an amplifier is clipping it's not delivering more power than it can supply?

Nothing can deliver more power than it can supply.

An amplifiers power rating is ideally the amount of clean, minimally distorted, power it can supply.

Have you understood Ohms law yet?
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post #92 of 227 Old 06-27-2013, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

So if an amplifier is clipping it's not delivering more power than it can supply? So a 10 watt amp that is clipping is still 10 watts. But I keep hearing that it's the power that kills the drive units, not the clipping. But then what is clipping doing? If the power doesn't change, how can it damage anything? confused.gif

No one said that. It would be useful for your hypothetical example to imagine the amp was rated for 5 watts at normal specified distortion, and the 10 watt output was all it could muster past it's rated output.
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post #93 of 227 Old 06-27-2013, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So now clipping an amplifier will not damage the speakers. Good to know. Thanks for putting all of this into perspective. You guys are ALL OVER THE PLACE!!!! I can't be alone in how you've explained this because it is darned confusing. One person is saying power kills drive units. The next person says clipping generates more power. The next person says clipping will not produce more power than it can supply. So WHAT KILLS THE DRIVE UNITS?

Goodness, I'm giving up with this crap. rolleyes.gif
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post #94 of 227 Old 06-27-2013, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

Look at this speaker :

http://www.infinity-classics.de/technik/manuals/Kappa_9_technical_sheet.pdf

Is this a difficult load for an amplifier? So in a case like this you need loads of current because of the low frequency drivers?

Can't tell from the evidence you've provided. We need an impedance curve and information about its efficiency and frequency response.

What your evidence does show is that the speaker has been out of production for a long time. Your question is moot.

However, by other means I know that this is a very questionably designed speaker.



It is not reasonable to expect amplifiers to power poorly designed speakers. There are plenty of better-designed speakers around.
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post #95 of 227 Old 06-27-2013, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

So now clipping an amplifier will not damage the speakers. Good to know. Thanks for putting all of this into perspective. You guys are ALL OVER THE PLACE!!!! I can't be alone in how you've explained this because it is darned confusing. One person is saying power kills drive units. The next person says clipping generates more power. The next person says clipping will not produce more power than it can supply. So WHAT KILLS THE DRIVE UNITS?

Most of the statements that you have paraphrased above are correct and relevant. One of them says that it excess power that kills drive units, or haven't you noticed this?
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Goodness, I'm giving up with this crap. rolleyes.gif

It appears that English may not beyour first language and you don't understand it well enough to use it to ask and answer technical questions.

Please find a conference whose language you can properly comprehend.
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post #96 of 227 Old 06-27-2013, 12:42 PM
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You guys are ALL OVER THE PLACE!!!!

No, you're just looking for an easy one word answer, but you refuse to learn the fundamentals, so you're not capable of understanding the responses.
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post #97 of 227 Old 06-27-2013, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

So now clipping an amplifier will not damage the speakers. Good to know. Thanks for putting all of this into perspective. You guys are ALL OVER THE PLACE!!!! I can't be alone in how you've explained this because it is darned confusing. One person is saying power kills drive units. The next person says clipping generates more power. The next person says clipping will not produce more power than it can supply. So WHAT KILLS THE DRIVE UNITS?

Goodness, I'm giving up with this crap. rolleyes.gif

You really need an electrical engineering degree or a ton of research to truly comprehend the discussion in this thread. I've tried to dumb it down in this post as much as possible.

The power rating of an Amp is it's clean or undistorted power output. If you drive a 10 Watt amp into distortion (clipping), it can output more than 10 Watts. If you are driving a 10 Watt speaker with this amp in distortion, you could damage it. It is not the distortion that causes the damage. It is the fact that you are driving it with more than 10 Watts.

If you take that same 10 Watt amp and drive a 200 Watt speaker with it, you will not damage it by running the amp into distortion.

It is all about power.
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post #98 of 227 Old 06-27-2013, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by hockeyrcks9901 
If you drive a 10 Watt amp into distortion (clipping), it can output more than 10 Watts.

According to SAM64 10 watts is 10 watts, regardless of the wave shape. Have I somehow misread what he said too? It's on the previous page.
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post #99 of 227 Old 06-27-2013, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by arnyk 
It appears that English may not beyour first language and you don't understand it well enough to use it to ask and answer technical questions.

The irony in the above sentence must have flown right past you. Try constructing a proper English sentence next time. LOL. rolleyes.gif
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Please find a conference whose language you can properly comprehend.

You must seriously stop with this self-enlightened, arrogant BS, arnykl. If you are going to EXPLAIN something then do so in a clear manner. If you can't explain something clearly then DON'T EXPLAIN IT. Simple as that. For all your supposed technical knowledge you have such a difficult time explaining things in a coherent way. Is there something wrong with you? Idiot.
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post #100 of 227 Old 06-27-2013, 01:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

According to SAM64 10 watts is 10 watts, regardless of the wave shape. Have I somehow misread what he said too? It's on the previous page.

10 watts is 10 watts, the sin wave will have a different voltage than a clipped wave if both are 10W.

a 10V peak to peak sin wave and a 10 V clipped wave are NOT the same power.

a clipped wave does 1.4 times the power of a sin wave.
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post #101 of 227 Old 06-27-2013, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by SAM64 
No, you're just looking for an easy one word answer, but you refuse to learn the fundamentals, so you're not capable of understanding the responses.

No, you need to reread the kinds of explanations that have been presented in this thread. Your comments are contradicting the other comments in this thread. You say 10 watts is 10 watts, clipping or not. Other people are suggesting 10 watts clipping can produce more than 10 watts. Are you going to deny this, or are you going to try and BS me? I simply can't believe how any reasonable person could be expected to follow any of this. mad.gif EE or not, the information presented is not clear. AT ALL.
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post #102 of 227 Old 06-27-2013, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

According to SAM64 10 watts is 10 watts, regardless of the wave shape. Have I somehow misread what he said too? It's on the previous page.

The wave shape gas absolutely nothing to do with power so he was right.

You keep turning the volume up and you get more power. When you get above the rated output of the amp the wave is also clipped. The clipping and the power are effects of raising the volume.
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post #103 of 227 Old 06-27-2013, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

No, you need to reread the kinds of explanations that have been presented in this thread. Your comments are contradicting the other comments in this thread. You say 10 watts is 10 watts, clipping or not. Other people are suggesting 10 watts clipping can produce more than 10 watts. Are you going to deny this, or are you going to try and BS me? I simply can't believe how any reasonable person could be expected to follow any of this. mad.gif EE or not, the information presented is not clear. AT ALL.

10 watts is 10 watts. No matter what.

An amp rated for 10 watts can produce more than 10 watts but it will be distorted.
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post #104 of 227 Old 06-27-2013, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

I think it would be best if I just ask other people this question. The answers I am getting just make no sense or are conflicting and it's bugging the hell out of me.

Everyone here is saying the same thing.

Clipping or distortion are the same thing. An amp is rated to produce a clean distortion free output up to a certain power level. You can push it past it's rated output but it will clip.

It doesn't matter whether the wave produced is clean or distorted to a speaker. All that matters is the amount of power.
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post #105 of 227 Old 06-27-2013, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So if the amplifier is clipping at 10 watts then it's not going to be 10 watts anymore?
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post #106 of 227 Old 06-27-2013, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

So if the amplifier is clipping at 10 watts then it's not going to be 10 watts anymore?

It won't clip at 10watts because it's rated to produce 10 watts.

When you ask it to produce 15 watts by turning the knob up, it will clip. The clipping is an effect NOT a cause.

If I use a 10 watt speaker and a 20 watt amp and turn the volume up it will damage the speaker but it will not clip.

If I use a 20 watt speaker and a 10 watt amp and turn the volume up it will clip but will not damage the speaker.

If I use a 10 watt speaker and a 10 watt amp and turn the volume up it will clip and it will damage the speaker.

When I say "Turn the volume up", I mean more than 10 Watts of power output.
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post #107 of 227 Old 06-27-2013, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So an amp rated at 40 watts can produce more power if it's clipping. But I thought "Nothing can deliver more power than it can supply.", according to a certain member. rolleyes.gif
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post #108 of 227 Old 06-27-2013, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

So an amp rated at 40 watts can produce more power if it's clipping. But I thought "Nothing can deliver more power than it can supply.", according to a certain member. rolleyes.gif

You're conflating two different power levels, the rated output of the amp within distortion limits on the one hand, and the absolute maximum output possible regardless of distortion on the other.
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post #109 of 227 Old 06-27-2013, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

So an amp rated at 40 watts can produce more power if it's clipping. But I thought "Nothing can deliver more power than it can supply.", according to a certain member. rolleyes.gif

There are several answers to this.

A 40 watt rated amp usually puts out a few more watts than its rating without clipping.
A 40 watt rated amp usually puts out more at 1K than its 20-20k rating without clipping.
A 40 watt rated amp usually puts out more without clipping on a short term basis.
A 40 watt rated amp usually puts out a lot more when clipped.

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post #110 of 227 Old 06-27-2013, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

So an amp rated at 40 watts can produce more power if it's clipping. But I thought "Nothing can deliver more power than it can supply.", according to a certain member. rolleyes.gif
Heinrich,

The power supply unit (PSU) for any amplifier and its transistors are designed to operate within the limits of a safe area. The manufacturers RATE their amplifiers at any specific value, lets say 100Watts driving a specific speakers impedance, lets say 8 Ohms, with a maximum specific distortion values that are considered acceptable. But this does not mean the PSU is not capable of exerting power above the rated amplifiers power value.

The PSU can delivered certain amount of power above the RATED power specification to comply with the demands of music dymamics (the headroom value), but if the stress condition continues for long time or the peak is too high, then the amp enters a clipping condition that delivers a high amount of high freq energy that in certain circumstances and depending on the speaker can certainly blow the speakers drivers.

In general terms it is preferable to have a low power amplifier with high headromm value than a high power amp with low headroom value.
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post #111 of 227 Old 06-27-2013, 02:12 PM
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Buy an amp that has sufficient power and stop this pissing contest.
If you have an amp with low(er) power and love it.... don't exceed a volume level that produces distortion.

Goodness sakes. This thread makes me laugh and cringe. rolleyes.gif
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post #112 of 227 Old 06-27-2013, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyrcks9901 View Post

If I use a 20 watt speaker and a 10 watt amp and turn the volume up it will clip but will not damage the speaker.
I don't know how you could categorically say that. Here is an example of a real measurement of an AVR:

1108piorec.Fig1.jpg

I could choose to rate that amp at 50 watts using 0.01% distortion. The amp then reaches 200 watts at 1% distortion giving me 4:1 differential. To use your example you would be saying that I can't damage a speaker at twice rated power which would be 2*50 = 100. But clearly I can since the amp goes to 200 watts and may even go higher if I measured past 1%.

So you just handed Heinrich evidence that we do disagree tongue.gif.

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post #113 of 227 Old 06-27-2013, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I don't know how you could categorically say that. Here is an example of a real measurement of an AVR:

1108piorec.Fig1.jpg

I could choose to rate that amp at 50 watts using 0.01% distortion. The amp then reaches 200 watts at 1% distortion giving me 4:1 differential. To use your example you would be saying that I can't damage a speaker at twice rated power which would be 2*50 = 100. But clearly I can since the amp goes to 200 watts and may even go higher if I measured past 1%.

So you just handed Heinrich evidence that we do disagree tongue.gif.

I was trying to dumb it way way down... but I think you knew that. wink.gif
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post #114 of 227 Old 06-27-2013, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

So an amp rated at 40 watts can produce more power if it's clipping. But I thought "Nothing can deliver more power than it can supply.", according to a certain member. rolleyes.gif

Just goes to show a lack of skill with decoding English.

"An amp rated at 40 watts can produce more power if it's clipping."

and

"Nothing can deliver more power than it can supply."

do not conflict at all since the second statement does not state the conditions under which the power is delivered.
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post #115 of 227 Old 06-27-2013, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

So if the amplifier is clipping at 10 watts then it's not going to be 10 watts anymore?

an amp is RATED at some power at some set specified distortion level. That RATING does not cause the laws of physics to stop operating, or keep the amp from making more than the RATED power at higher than the RATED distortion.

I think I've come close to begging you a couple of times to go look at some power versus distortion curves in amp reviews. like this http://www.stereophile.com/content/dan-dagostino-momentum-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements. Go there and scroll, if you have the strength, down to figure 5 and you will see how, for that amp into an 8 ohm load, distortion (actually noise plus distortion but noise isn't a big part of the picture once you get to clipping level). It hits 0.1 % distortion at just over 200 watts. Can it output more power? HECK YES. 1 percent distortion at 400 watts. See? If I rate the amp at 1 percent distortion, I call it a 400 watt amp. If I rate it at .1 percent distortion I call it something like a 230 watt amp. What I call it doesn't change what it can do in terms of power above the specified distortion level. And BTW while 1% is about as high as you'll see specified, it's pretty much inaudible distortion. That is, an amp specified at 1 percent distortion can output more than its rated power before its distortion becomes even slightly audible with most typical real content. YOu could call htat relatively conservative specification practice.

Returning, if you are able, to figure 5 of the stereophile amp test, you will see that the distortion axis tops out at 3% distortion, and power is still increasing, but not as fast as distortion. It's just a bit over 400 watts at 3 percent distortion. Did the graph end at 3 percent because the amp blew up? No. They just had to stop it somewhere. The fact that the graph stops IN NO WAY means that the amp cannot put out more power at higher distortion. (If this utterly confuses you, you need to buy the semiancient book How to Lie With Statistics before you are ripped off any more by transparent misrepresentations of data in marketing materials of all kinds). Power will keep going up and so will distortion, but we cannot accurately predict what the power will be at 5%, 10% or 20% distortion because the curve/line might change slope further. So you only know what you can actually see. But for most purposes 1 or 3% distortion is considered max for home audio reproduction (Stereophile sometimes relaxes its 1% clipping number to 3% for tube amps in part on the gronds that tube distortion may be more subjectively benign than solid state distortion).

SEE? Power can go way up even after the amp is said to be clipping. Because "clipping" is a semiarbitrary point on a line that slopes upward in both power and distortion. Calling a point on that line "clipping" does not cause the rest of the line to vanish into a black hole. The performance, and its graphical representation, remain even well above whatever distortion level you want to call clipping. Perhaps the ungodly expensive monoblock being tested in Figure 4 could be specified at 700 watts at 10% distortion. We can't see the test results that high, so we don't know. Maybe it's 500 watts or less at 10 percent distortion. We don't know. But we know it will make more distortion (recall guitarists thingk 10% distortion is "clean") when you increase th input level, and that it will simultaneously produce more power.

You can see similar testing of other amps (assuming you retain teh capcacity to get to the link and scroll down on the page, here http://www.stereophile.com/content/anthem-statement-m1-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements and here http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-2313ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures (a Denon receiver being tested. It makes 95 watts at about .003 % distortion, 150 watts at something between 0.8 and 0.9% distortion, and about 165 watts at 2 percent distortion.

All amps behave similarly. Once distortion starts rising, added input yields both more power and more distortion. at the levels we are talking about, the distortion is not adding any significant amount to total power.
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post #116 of 227 Old 06-28-2013, 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

So if an amplifier is clipping it's not delivering more power than it can supply? So a 10 watt amp that is clipping is still 10 watts. But I keep hearing that it's the power that kills the drive units, not the clipping. But then what is clipping doing? If the power doesn't change, how can it damage anything? confused.gif

 

You seem to be struggling with this concept a lot, despite several very clear explanations. Let's look at it differently: why is this so important to you?  Do you have an amp or speaker problem that you would like help with?

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post #117 of 227 Old 06-28-2013, 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 
No, you're just looking for an easy one word answer, but you refuse to learn the fundamentals, so you're not capable of understanding the responses.

No, you need to reread the kinds of explanations that have been presented in this thread. Your comments are contradicting the other comments in this thread. You say 10 watts is 10 watts, clipping or not. Other people are suggesting 10 watts clipping can produce more than 10 watts. Are you going to deny this, or are you going to try and BS me? I simply can't believe how any reasonable person could be expected to follow any of this. mad.gif EE or not, the information presented is not clear. AT ALL.

 

The explanations given seem perfectly clear to me but here is a way of explaining it that should be easily understood by anyone, with or without technical qualifications:

 

  1. Amps are specified for power with parameters attached to the spec.Thus, a 50 watt amp will be specified as a 50 watt amp with xxx of distortion. IOW, it will deliver (is rated for) 50 watts so long as that xxx of distortion is not exceeded.
  2. But the amp may be capable of 100 watts if that xxx of distortion is exceeded.
  3. So if you drive the amp so hard that it exceeds the xxx of distortion (eg you CLIP it), then it may deliver all of that 100 watts.
  4. If your speakers can only handle 50 watts, then pushing 100 watts into them will probably damage them.
  5. If your speakers could handle 200 watts, then pushing 100 watts into them will not damage them - even though that 100 watts is severely clipping.
  6. If you swap for an amp that can deliver 200 watts without clipping, and you push 200 watts of UNCLIPPED power into the 50 watt speakers, you will damage them.
  7. It is about the power, not the clipping.

 

Does that help you understand it now?  If not, then I am afraid we might all just have to give up now. 

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post #118 of 227 Old 06-28-2013, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

So an amp rated at 40 watts can produce more power if it's clipping. But I thought "Nothing can deliver more power than it can supply.", according to a certain member. rolleyes.gif

 

Nothing can deliver more power than it can supply, obviously. In the case above, the amp is delivering more power than 40 watts because the 40 watts specification was for the amp with no clipping. If you let it clip then it will deliver more than its rated 40 watts.

 

With respect, I am beginning to wonder if your repeated questions are serious questions.

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post #119 of 227 Old 06-28-2013, 03:42 AM
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Has anyone mentioned that thermal buildup will also damage a speaker?

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post #120 of 227 Old 06-28-2013, 03:49 AM
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If youre speakers can handle 200 watts and youre amp is 100 watts and is clipping for a long enough time doesnt that build up heat in the speaker and cause damage?
In other words wont an amp that is clipping cause speaker damage even though it is well below the maximum wattage rating of the speaker?

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