What happens when you pass DTS-MA or DD-True HD via HDMI to TV that only has 2 speakers - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 17 Old 06-25-2013, 12:02 AM - Thread Starter
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If you have a blue ray playing HD Audio (DTS MA or DD True HD) and it goes through a HDMI cable to a AVR that can decode it, and from there it goes to a monitor out (HDMI out) to a 2 channel TV (just the stock speakers), is there a way to get any sound output?

I am asking because I am trying to run a signal to a 2nd TV and I can get DD, DTS, LCPM to play on it, but not the HD Audio formats. I can switch to the other formats, but its a lot of menu switching and would like to avoid.

Please educate me and maybe suggest a solution.

Thank you in advance.
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post #2 of 17 Old 06-25-2013, 05:03 AM
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DTS MA and TrueHD have mixdown metadata. The problem (I think) is your receiver is decoding but sending 5.1 LPCM to your TV and your TV can't deal with it (though I may be wrong). You may need to set your receiver to output 2.0.

Or your receiver may be sending the DTS MA/ TrueHD stream and your TV has no decoder.
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post #3 of 17 Old 06-25-2013, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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DTS and DD seem to be 5.1 and those work fine. Is there something different about HD audio down mixing?
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post #4 of 17 Old 06-25-2013, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamond Dog View Post

DTS and DD seem to be 5.1 and those work fine. Is there something different about HD audio down mixing?
It's probably the latter. Your TV doesn't have a DTS MA or TrueHD decoder and is being sent that.
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post #5 of 17 Old 06-25-2013, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the answer.... I find it strange that the AVR does have the ability to decode those formats and can't down mix to 2.0 stereo as the AVR has a ZONE 2 out where its just an RCA connector and I have that run to the TV as well and when I turn on that input on the TV, still no sound with those HD audio formats
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post #6 of 17 Old 06-25-2013, 06:22 PM
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I don't think receiver sends PCM 5.1 or dts-HD MA/Dolby TrueHD to a TV that can't accept/decode/handle these as normally HDMI handshaking would not let it happen. I'd expect the receiver to send stereo PCM to the TV (receiver decodes and downmixes if needed), or DD 5.1 if the TV can pass it on out of its SPDIF output. I've not heard of this problem in the receiver forum, the usual problem is no audio when TV is turned off, or only stereo not MCH.

I suspect your receiver isn't sending any audio out. If the TV has some info display you might be able to find out what's coming in.

Since you mentioned two TVs, I'm not entirely clear if both have the same issue. You didn't mention brand names so I'm just talking generalisations rather than specifics. If you're using the TV speakers what's the purpose of the receiver in the chain?

Configure your player to send out PCM (player doing decoding) instead of bitstream. You said it worked when selecting PCM tracks so this should work also. Or use SPDIF or RCA.

You also said you're not getting audio from zone 2 RCA, most receivers will NOT pass/decode/downmix HDMI audio out of zone 2 RCA. It only works with stereo RCA analogue inputs.

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post #7 of 17 Old 06-25-2013, 10:34 PM
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Diamond Dog - How is the second TV connected? If you are using the zone 2 output, most AVRs will only pass analog sources to zone 2. You would need to run a second analog connection from the player to the receiver in order to feed the second zone.
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post #8 of 17 Old 06-26-2013, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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The 2nd TV is hooked up via HDMI from an Integra sub out (2 HDMI out connectors...one is main, one is sub)

I have a seperate anolog rca cable going from zone 2 out to the TV RAC input as well

ZONE 2 is independent of the HDMI sub out.

My problem is only with HD Audio formats.
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post #9 of 17 Old 06-26-2013, 03:57 PM
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What model Integra? And what does the manual say about what can be sent over the second HDMI output?

Running analog from the zone 2 out to the TV won't do anything if zone 2 requires an analog input, yes?
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post #10 of 17 Old 06-26-2013, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Integra 80.3

Manual says nothing about what the HDMI can carry except for that you can select the out (Main, Sub, Both, Both with Main Priority, Both with Sub Priority). No idea what priority means but it doesnt work with the audio portion with DTS MA. Lossy audio works fine

The TV has both HDMI and analog audio in under the 'HDMI - 1 " input. Its a Sony LCD
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post #11 of 17 Old 06-26-2013, 07:16 PM
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Just to be clear on your goal here...

You have a Blu-ray connected using HDMI to your receiver. You want to send picture and sound from the BD to two TVs using the two HDMI outputs on your AVR. You also want the AVR to process multichannel lossless audio for your surround system.

Is that it?
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post #12 of 17 Old 06-27-2013, 01:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes. But I want HD audio on the main and sound on the sub output to the 2.0 tv with stock spealers even if it is HD audio such as DTS MA.
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post #13 of 17 Old 06-27-2013, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamond Dog View Post

Yes. But I want HD audio on the main and sound on the sub output to the 2.0 tv with stock spealers even if it is HD audio such as DTS MA.

if I have this right, you have the "zone 2" TV connected via the HDMI sub out. the owner's manual describes that as an output for "projector, etc." not a zone 2 output (p. 19). So it's putting out whatever is in zone one.

It appears that your TV can handle dolby digital signals that come through the HDMI port in addition to over the air reception. Many TVs cannot. but it also appears your tv, like most to all, does not have either the hardware capability or the necessary software and licenses to deal with the lossless formats. So DTS HDMA coming into the TV is incomprehensible and will not be decoded.

The owner's manual appears to contemplate connecting zone two via the zone two analog outputs (see p 73). At page 75, it says, "Only analog input sources are output by the ZONE 2/3 PRE/LINE OUT terminals. Digital input sources are not output." This is common. Your zone two needs a stereo signal. When multichannel digital comes in to the receiver, unless it's PCM natively, the receiver decodes it into multichannel PCM, then applies crossovers, delays and any EQ in the digital domain before sending the multichanneld PCM to the DAC to be converted into analog that an amplifier can turn into sound through a speaker. It CAN take the multichannel PCM and downmix it to stereo, which is what would be needed to serve zone two. But once it is stereo, the other channels are gone, and you would not gett surround in the main zone. Like most devices, the 803 does not ahve a second digital path with decoders for all the Dolby and DTS formats, so it cannot create a separate downmix to deliver to zone 2.
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post #14 of 17 Old 06-27-2013, 08:13 AM
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If you have TVs attached to both HDMI outputs, it looks like you want to set Monitor Out to HDMI Both. While the manual doesn't address the HDMI audio outputs specifically, the descriptions suggest that the Both setting means each output will conduct its own handshake to assure connectivity with the attached devices.

TVs are two channel devices and most will use the HDMI handshake to instruct the source to send stereo PCM rather than multichannel codecs. So, regardless of the output format you select on the player, each HDMI output on the Integra should send a format that the attached devices can handle.

I suggest you troubleshoot this in an organized fashion. Set the player to output lossless codecs. Set the Integra Monitor Out to Both. Only attach TV1 to the Main output. Play a dts-MA track to see whether you get multichannel audio to your sound system and sound to the TV. Then, disconnect TV1 and connect TV2, using the same Main output and the same cable. Does that work the same as with TV1? Go through the same steps, but attach each TV in turn to the Sub output. If you get the correct sound in each of these steps, you'll know that it is possible to get the audio you want from both outputs and both TVs. If the sound stops working somewhere along the way, you'll have identified the specific combination of output and device that doesn't work and you'll know what to attack looking for a fix. If, for example, everything works except when you attach TV2 to the Sub output, then you can try changing the Monitor Out setting so that Sub is the priority to see if that makes a difference.
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post #15 of 17 Old 06-27-2013, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

If you have TVs attached to both HDMI outputs, it looks like you want to set Monitor Out to HDMI Both. While the manual doesn't address the HDMI audio outputs specifically, the descriptions suggest that the Both setting means each output will conduct its own handshake to assure connectivity with the attached devices.

TVs are two channel devices and most will use the HDMI handshake to instruct the source to send stereo PCM rather than multichannel codecs. So, regardless of the output format you select on the player, each HDMI output on the Integra should send a format that the attached devices can handle.

I suggest you troubleshoot this in an organized fashion. Set the player to output lossless codecs. Set the Integra Monitor Out to Both. Only attach TV1 to the Main output. Play a dts-MA track to see whether you get multichannel audio to your sound system and sound to the TV. Then, disconnect TV1 and connect TV2, using the same Main output and the same cable. Does that work the same as with TV1? Go through the same steps, but attach each TV in turn to the Sub output. If you get the correct sound in each of these steps, you'll know that it is possible to get the audio you want from both outputs and both TVs. If the sound stops working somewhere along the way, you'll have identified the specific combination of output and device that doesn't work and you'll know what to attack looking for a fix. If, for example, everything works except when you attach TV2 to the Sub output, then you can try changing the Monitor Out setting so that Sub is the priority to see if that makes a difference.

I think I disagree with the very first point. To me when the manual says that setting to "both" "Video signals are output from both HDMI outputs at the resolution supported by both TVs" essentially means that video will be at a single resolution, one that is supported by both TVs. Otherwise, the settings that make Main or Sub the priority would be unnecessary, and there would be no reason that if Main is the priority, "Video signals are output from both HDMI outputs but HDMI OUT MAIN will become a priority; depending on the resolution, video signals may not be output from HDMI OUT SUB." If the receiver could put out two different resolutions simultaneously, there would never be a reason to turn off video to one of the devices.

Since the receiver lacks the hardware and software to separately downmix zone two, it almost certainly likes such capabilities forthe HDMI Sub output. And I don't think any source device (like a BDP) can simultaneously put out two different resolutions/soundtracks over a single HDMI connection to the receiver. So there's nowehre for the PCM downmix to come from.
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post #16 of 17 Old 06-27-2013, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

If you have TVs attached to both HDMI outputs, it looks like you want to set Monitor Out to HDMI Both. While the manual doesn't address the HDMI audio outputs specifically, the descriptions suggest that the Both setting means each output will conduct its own handshake to assure connectivity with the attached devices.

TVs are two channel devices and most will use the HDMI handshake to instruct the source to send stereo PCM rather than multichannel codecs. So, regardless of the output format you select on the player, each HDMI output on the Integra should send a format that the attached devices can handle.

I suggest you troubleshoot this in an organized fashion. Set the player to output lossless codecs. Set the Integra Monitor Out to Both. Only attach TV1 to the Main output. Play a dts-MA track to see whether you get multichannel audio to your sound system and sound to the TV. Then, disconnect TV1 and connect TV2, using the same Main output and the same cable. Does that work the same as with TV1? Go through the same steps, but attach each TV in turn to the Sub output. If you get the correct sound in each of these steps, you'll know that it is possible to get the audio you want from both outputs and both TVs. If the sound stops working somewhere along the way, you'll have identified the specific combination of output and device that doesn't work and you'll know what to attack looking for a fix. If, for example, everything works except when you attach TV2 to the Sub output, then you can try changing the Monitor Out setting so that Sub is the priority to see if that makes a difference.

I think I disagree with the very first point. To me when the manual says that setting to "both" "Video signals are output from both HDMI outputs at the resolution supported by both TVs" essentially means that video will be at a single resolution, one that is supported by both TVs. Otherwise, the settings that make Main or Sub the priority would be unnecessary, and there would be no reason that if Main is the priority, "Video signals are output from both HDMI outputs but HDMI OUT MAIN will become a priority; depending on the resolution, video signals may not be output from HDMI OUT SUB." If the receiver could put out two different resolutions simultaneously, there would never be a reason to turn off video to one of the devices.

Since the receiver lacks the hardware and software to separately downmix zone two, it almost certainly likes such capabilities forthe HDMI Sub output. And I don't think any source device (like a BDP) can simultaneously put out two different resolutions/soundtracks over a single HDMI connection to the receiver. So there's nowehre for the PCM downmix to come from.
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post #17 of 17 Old 06-27-2013, 08:48 AM
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You could be right about what the processor is doing when Monitor Out is set to Both. And you are definitely correct that the player cannot output more than one signal at a time over a single HDMI connection. Any differences in the AVR's HDMI outputs would have to be handled by the Integra.

Given what little anyone seems to know about how the two outputs are managed, the troubleshooting approach I suggested seems to be a good starting point.

Meanwhile, Diamond Dog, since PCM works for both sets, why not just use that output from the player? When you play a lossless track, it doesn't matter whether you decode it in the player or the receiver. It's the exact same PCM either way.
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