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post #1 of 31 Old 08-05-2013, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Is it true that stereo systems are highly compromised if used in a room with other speakers (center and surrounds)? My thinking is that the additional speakers act like resonators, even if inactive so the additional speakers would compromise the sound field in the room for stereo?

Thoughts?
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post #2 of 31 Old 08-05-2013, 12:24 PM
 
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HT and Stereo do not mix well together. One reason being that even if your subs are off, the cone still has a resonant FS and if your main speakers reach this same frequency then the cone of the subs will augment the matched frequency.

Simple test: place your hand on the sub driver while playing stereo music and feel for your self, while it is off, it will act like a passive radiator. It's a bad idea and will compromise overall performance.
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post #3 of 31 Old 08-05-2013, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

Is it true that stereo systems are highly compromised if used in a room with other speakers (center and surrounds)? My thinking is that the additional speakers act like resonators, even if inactive so the additional speakers would compromise the sound field in the room for stereo?

Thoughts?

This odd hypothesis was debunked maybe a few decades decade back when it was advanced by Ivor Tiefenbrun (founder of Linn) and debunked by Stanley Lipshitz of JAES fame.

http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/abx_testing2.htm
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post #4 of 31 Old 08-05-2013, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

Is it true that stereo systems are highly compromised if used in a room with other speakers (center and surrounds)? My thinking is that the additional speakers act like resonators, even if inactive so the additional speakers would compromise the sound field in the room for stereo?

Thoughts?

 

Wow. It has been decades since I last saw this one. It goes back to the heyday of audiofoolery - they even suggested that it was vital to remove anything from the room that had another speaker in it - including a telephone!

 

It seems fairly obvious that it is gibberish. In a stereo system there are two speakers in the room - if the hypothesis made sense, then one of the speakers would have to go!  And a modern multichannel system would be fatally compromised from the get-go.

 

Where did you read this recently?  I thought the idea had died years ago. Anry has posted a link to the official debunking :)



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post #5 of 31 Old 08-05-2013, 01:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 
if the hypothesis made sense, then one of the speakers would have to go!

Based on?
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post #6 of 31 Old 08-05-2013, 01:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by arnyk 
This odd hypothesis was debunked maybe a few decades decade back when it was advanced by Ivor Tiefenbrun (founder of Linn) and debunked by Stanley Lipshitz of JAES fame.

So you are telling me that a speaker or subwoofer that is unused will not act like a passive radiator within a room and that it won't have undesired consequences on the sound? I would like to see this be "debunked" since it's common sense.
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post #7 of 31 Old 08-05-2013, 02:17 PM
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Ollie, can you provide any supporting evidence to your claim? I am interested in learning more about this possible effect. I have both my subs near my mains and I can't say I have ever noticed them acting like passive radiators when in 2 channel play back mode.

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!

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post #8 of 31 Old 08-05-2013, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

This odd hypothesis was debunked maybe a few decades decade back when it was advanced by Ivor Tiefenbrun (founder of Linn) and debunked by Stanley Lipshitz of JAES fame.

Excellent Arny, I'll post that in another forum where the same issue is now being discussed. One of these days I'll do an REW room measurement with and without some unterminated speakers present. That will remove listening from the equation, and provide hard proof of whether there's a change in the response or ringing.

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post #9 of 31 Old 08-05-2013, 02:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by 67jason 
Ollie, can you provide any supporting evidence to your claim? I am interested in learning more about this possible effect. I have both my subs near my mains and I can't say I have ever noticed them acting like passive radiators when in 2 channel play back mode.

Try placing your hand on the sub driver while playing stereo music and feel what happens. While it is off, it will act like a passive radiator. You telling me that has no effect on the sound?
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post #10 of 31 Old 08-05-2013, 02:41 PM
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I tried that Ollie and didn't really feel anything at all.

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!

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post #11 of 31 Old 08-05-2013, 02:44 PM
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I have a sub in our theater room that has two 12 inch woofers. I also have main speakers with 12 inch woofers, JBL L 100, that will provide significant bass. Sometimes I run the mains on music in two channel without the sub and other times with the sub. It works in both configurations. Yes the sub does vibrate a bit even when it is unpowered in the two channel mode but so does the furniture, walls and shelfs in the room. Heinrich I have not found it to be a big issue in a real application.

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post #12 of 31 Old 08-06-2013, 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 
if the hypothesis made sense, then one of the speakers would have to go!

Based on?

 

One speaker will interfere with the other. If having a telephone in the room will cause problems, then having a huge additional speaker in the room will too, won’t it?  The whole idea is ludicrous and has been comprehensively debunked in blind tests. Follow Arny's link for the full hilarity.  It's in the same audiofool category as drawing a green ring around the edge of your CDs makes them sound better. And resting the speaker cables on upturned wine glasses to keep the cables off the floor. 

 

P T Barnum was spot on. He'd have made millions from audiophiles...

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post #13 of 31 Old 08-06-2013, 02:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by "kbarnes701 
One speaker will interfere with the other.

That doesn't make sense. Stereo is two speakers in a room. We are talking about other speakers interfering with the stereo image and you are talking to me about mono. How is that relevant?
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 
P T Barnum was spot on. He'd have made millions from audiophiles...

Yeah, except P T Barnum never said "a sucker born every minute". If you delve a little deeper you'll find history misdirected that quote. The actual quotation was said by his competitor, not by P T Barnum.
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post #15 of 31 Old 08-06-2013, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

Try placing your hand on the sub driver while playing stereo music and feel what happens. While it is off, it will act like a passive radiator. You telling me that has no effect on the sound?
What about the coffee table, the audio rack, the recliners, your iPhone (speaker/armature), the walls and........? If you attempt to remove all resonating objects want you be left with an anechoic chamber? It would seem from a practical point that in order to cause a damping speaker cone to resonate appreciably it would need a lot of energy directed onto it. It also seems to me (but I could be wrong) that all other objects in the room would resonate causing audible "noise" way before an off speaker cone.
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post #16 of 31 Old 08-06-2013, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by 67jason 
Ollie, can you provide any supporting evidence to your claim? I am interested in learning more about this possible effect. I have both my subs near my mains and I can't say I have ever noticed them acting like passive radiators when in 2 channel play back mode.

Try placing your hand on the sub driver while playing stereo music and feel what happens. While it is off, it will act like a passive radiator. You telling me that has no effect on the sound?

It's possible that if you listen with your head stuck inside your subwoofer's enclosure that you might hear those vibrations as a warm hum from time to time, modulated by the music. Of course its up to you to distinguish between sound simply being transmitted through the cone, and the cone actually re-radiating it.

Now, let us get real world about this. You are sitting in your favorite listening chair a dozen feet from your subwoofer with the L&R speakers blasting away. What happens to that little hum from the subwoofer that you can barely hear with your head poked inside the box?

The human ear can only distinguish sounds that are 60 dB or less below the prevailing SPL under the most ideal of all conditions. Usually the real-world difference is half that or even less dB. And the conditions aren't ideal.
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post #17 of 31 Old 08-06-2013, 05:53 AM
 
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It's possible that if you listen with your head stuck inside your subwoofer's enclosure that you might hear those vibrations as a warm hum from time to time, modulated by the music. Of course its up to you to distinguish between sound simply being transmitted through the cone, and the cone actually re-radiating it.

So you do not agree that the sub will act as a passive radiator if unused?
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Ollie, the difference is that a passive radiator is driven from inside a speaker enclosure by the back-wave from the other drivers, thereby radiating out into the room. If a sub driver is driven by sound waves in the room, at most it will radiate into the sub enclosure, and be inaudible. There will be a spring effect from the inside resisting the movement of the cone at any rate, even if the sub was ported.
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post #19 of 31 Old 08-06-2013, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by "kbarnes701 
One speaker will interfere with the other.

That doesn't make sense. Stereo is two speakers in a room. We are talking about other speakers interfering with the stereo image and you are talking to me about mono. How is that relevant?

 

That's right. It doesn't make any sense that having more than one speaker in a room produces distorted sound.



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post #20 of 31 Old 08-06-2013, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by " 
Originally Posted by "kbarnes701 

One speaker will interfere with the other.


That doesn't make sense. Stereo is two speakers in a room. We are talking about other speakers interfering with the stereo image and you are talking to me about mono. How is that relevant?

That's right. It doesn't make any sense that having more than one speaker in a room produces distorted sound.

Unhh, a tiny bit more sense, but still not enough sense. ;-)

The argument is that the fact that the speakers are disconnected from an amp vastly reduces their damping. This turns out to be a bit of a fantasy, too. Speakers are so inefficient that their cones are only loosely connected to the speaker terminals.
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post #21 of 31 Old 08-06-2013, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

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It's possible that if you listen with your head stuck inside your subwoofer's enclosure that you might hear those vibrations as a warm hum from time to time, modulated by the music. Of course its up to you to distinguish between sound simply being transmitted through the cone, and the cone actually re-radiating it.

So you do not agree that the sub will act as a passive radiator if unused?

It's all about quantification. Yes the effect you describe takes place to a microscopic degree, but no its not loud enough to affect what you hear at a normal listening location.

Audiophiles seem to make this mistake a zillion times. Someone comes up with a real effect that happens only to a microscopic degree, and then they want to spend a quintillion dollars fixing it. All these really nasty-sounding things actually happen all over your audio system, but only to a microscopic degree.

You know that green CD pens actually did something, right? Just not enough! The whole rest of the CD player was designed to make green pens moot, and by gum those scientists and engineers made the CD work and overcome what the green pens did and a host of other far more significant problems.

I started documenting my responses to this thread with a BAS Speaker article (highly reputable source - miles ahead of your average internet troll) with a well-known and highly respected author who used a legendary exploiter of audiophiles as his foil. That meant nothing to you, right?
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post #22 of 31 Old 08-06-2013, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Audiophiles seem to make this mistake a zillion times. Someone comes up with a real effect that happens only to a microscopic degree, and then they want to spend a quintillion dollars fixing it. 

 

Yes - meanwhile they ignore absolutely HUGE room-induced deviations in the frequency response. Amazing how they reckon they can hear the minute differences between one DAC and another, yet seem oblivious to a 20-30dB peak or null in their FR.



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post #23 of 31 Old 08-06-2013, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by OllieS View Post

HT and Stereo do not mix well together.
Bollocks.
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One reason being that even if your subs are off, the cone still has a resonant FS and if your main speakers reach this same frequency then the cone of the subs will augment the matched frequency.
Most sub drivers have an Fs around 20Hz and very, very few people have mains that reach that low at any sort of level.
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post #24 of 31 Old 08-06-2013, 12:20 PM
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If you attempt to remove all resonating objects want you be left with an anechoic chamber?

No, those are two different issues. Objects that ring add energy to the room that can be heard after the source sounds stops. Reflections from the walls and ceiling add ambience or reverb, but don't ring. Now, the room itself can ring due to those reflections, but that's separate from "objects" that ring.
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It would seem from a practical point that in order to cause a damping speaker cone to resonate appreciably it would need a lot of energy directed onto it. It also seems to me (but I could be wrong) that all other objects in the room would resonate causing audible "noise" way before an off speaker cone.

I agree. With so much more important stuff to worry about, extra speaker cones seems close to the bottom of the list. As always, the best way to assess such potential problems is by measuring the room both ways, or with a proper blind test.

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post #25 of 31 Old 08-06-2013, 12:26 PM
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Bollocks.
Most sub drivers have an Fs around 20Hz and very, very few people have mains that reach that low at any sort of level.

Guys, is this tread a serious thread? Aren't we in the 13th year of the 21st century? What is all this talk about a 2.0 channel stereo system in a HT room? Anyone ever heard of a 2.1 system? The 0.1 stands for the subwoofer channel. Bass Management is available. In a HT system there is...cool.gifsmile.gifcool.gif

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post #26 of 31 Old 08-06-2013, 02:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OllieS 
So you are telling me that a speaker or subwoofer that is unused will not act like a passive radiator within a room and that it won't have undesired consequences on the sound?

A passive radiator is sealed into the same cabinet as the driver. There is a push/pull effect. By adjusting the mass of the radiator, you can tune the response of the driver. Now what you're describing does not sound like a passive radiator to me (guys correct me if I'm wrong here). Simply causing an object to vibrate at some frequency does not a passive radiator make. Just having the subwoofer sitting there, unused, isn't sharing a sealed space and hence no push/pull behaviour is going on. That's how I understand it.
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post #27 of 31 Old 08-07-2013, 01:04 AM
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I have no idea what the relevance of your reply was to the post of mine you quoted.
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Guys, is this tread a serious thread?
I have my doubts.
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Aren't we in the 13th year of the 21st century?
It is on my planet.
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What is all this talk about a 2.0 channel stereo system in a HT room?
Some people have a preference for them.
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Anyone ever heard of a 2.1 system? The 0.1 stands for the subwoofer channel.
Um, yes, since the first sat/sub system I designed about 30 years ago.
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Bass Management is available. In a HT system there is...
Bass management has always been available, it's just now the tools are cheap and easy and automatic for the most part. It's always been possible to do it manually, but it was a lot of work and required a better understanding of electronics and acoustics than most people had/have.
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post #28 of 31 Old 08-07-2013, 05:02 AM
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Audiophiles seem to make this mistake a zillion times. Someone comes up with a real effect that happens only to a microscopic degree, and then they want to spend a quintillion dollars fixing it. 

Yes - meanwhile they ignore absolutely HUGE room-induced deviations in the frequency response. Amazing how they reckon they can hear the minute differences between one DAC and another, yet seem oblivious to a 20-30dB peak or null in their FR.

Right I need a DAC that is +/- 0.1 dB to 40 KHz but forget about my speaker's tweeter that takes a big dive at 18 KHz or peaks at 25 Khz, and a room with 20-30 dB dips and peaks due to standing waves and other reflections. And let's forget about what my ears ignore due to masking and the losses we see in Fletcher Munson curves (known about since the 1930s). ;-)
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post #29 of 31 Old 08-07-2013, 05:30 AM
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Audiophiles seem to make this mistake a zillion times. Someone comes up with a real effect that happens only to a microscopic degree, and then they want to spend a quintillion dollars fixing it. 

Yes - meanwhile they ignore absolutely HUGE room-induced deviations in the frequency response. Amazing how they reckon they can hear the minute differences between one DAC and another, yet seem oblivious to a 20-30dB peak or null in their FR.

Right I need a DAC that is +/- 0.1 dB to 40 KHz but forget about my speaker's tweeter that takes a big dive at 18 KHz or peaks at 25 Khz, and a room with 20-30 dB dips and peaks due to standing waves and other reflections. And let's forget about what my ears ignore due to masking and the losses we see in Fletcher Munson curves (known about since the 1930s). ;-)

 

Oh yes - but let's forget all that. Let's focus on hearing the differences between DACs. Or on the obvious audible sonic degradation that happens if we stupidly leave a telephone in the room while using our stereo systems... ;)



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post #30 of 31 Old 08-07-2013, 05:35 AM
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Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Audiophiles seem to make this mistake a zillion times. Someone comes up with a real effect that happens only to a microscopic degree, and then they want to spend a quintillion dollars fixing it. 


Yes - meanwhile they ignore absolutely HUGE room-induced deviations in the frequency response. Amazing how they reckon they can hear the minute differences between one DAC and another, yet seem oblivious to a 20-30dB peak or null in their FR.


Right I need a DAC that is +/- 0.1 dB to 40 KHz but forget about my speaker's tweeter that takes a big dive at 18 KHz or peaks at 25 Khz, and a room with 20-30 dB dips and peaks due to standing waves and other reflections. And let's forget about what my ears ignore due to masking and the losses we see in Fletcher Munson curves (known about since the 1930s). ;-)

Oh yes - but let's forget all that. Let's focus on hearing the differences between DACs. Or on the obvious audible sonic degradation that happens if we stupidly leave a telephone in the room while using our stereo systems... wink.gif

Right. I seem to recall that Ivor even found this *problem* with cell phones. Sighted evaluations are marvelous - its sort of like learning the laws of physics by reading an author who free-associates. ;-)
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