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post #91 of 267 Old 01-21-2014, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

I've read Dr. Toole's book, I've been reading his white papers and presentations (and Sean Olive's) for years, and I get the whole 'first reflections aren't necessarily evil' thing. I recommend his book to everyone who shows an interest in better home audio sound.

What I'm saying is, I'd feel more confident if it was Floyd Toole explaining to us what Floyd Toole believes, than this guy.
Another actor for persistence of misinformation in this forum due to personal feelings. I corrected Krab's knowledge of audio compression, an area where I am professionally trained. See this: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1353196/at-what-point-does-audio-snake-oil-become-fraud/330#post_20864798. Instead of backing up his answer, he went to another forum asking them to help him with arguments:

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Originally Posted by amirm 
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple 
OK, Amir, game on. Let's see if HA folk think this graph says what you claim it does. http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...howtopic=90464

Well, reading the comments seems like they are damaging to your case .

The graph as a rough perceptual scale is actually quite correct. It certainly has the right relative shape. Unless you can prove that in no case is there an audible degradation, it cannot by definition clip to 10. Some of the people are pointing that out.

BTW, between us, I thought your description of our discussion here was quite rude:

"Someone is waving this in my face at another forum,after I asserted that people who can tell modern 320kbs LAME encodes from source in ABX constitute the a tiny minority of listeners, and even they may require 'killer samples' , rather than being able to do it all the time, e.g., with a random mix of music.... I called bullsh*t on that rhetoric"

[....]

That led to this mature response from Krab:
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

...Clown on, Amir. I've already got the HA people agreeing that that graph is misleading and should be taken down, because liars like you will misinterpret it for their own ends.

Many painful, emotional outburst later ends with this post of his:
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

No you're not. You're trying to subject them to the death of 1,000 stupid cuts. Even direct, simple 'YES' or 'NO' answers ...which you've demanded of me several times, and which I've supplied -- don't shut you up.

Forget it. You're on ignore from here on. You're just too damn much of a ridiculous time suck machine. And that's saying something.

Am I on his "ignore list?" Apparently not. The personal feelings entice him to continue to read my posts and try to put down information in any way he can. He has read Dr. Toole's book but doesn't know what to quote from that which disputes what I say? Either he hasn't read the book, hasn't understood it, or knows that it agrees with what I said and is just fighting a different war, disguised as this one.

You want Dr. Toole here? As I said, it starts by cleaning up our act here. Stop putting your emotions ahead of knowledge and learning the science for the benefit of the rest of the forum. Quit polluting the threads with non-constructive posts like the one I am responding to. You know something about acoustics and the topic at hand, by all means, share it. If you don't, then just let others who do discuss it. It is what we are here for, right? Right. Until then, if you want to hear Dr. Toole himself, you need to pay $$$ and go to CEDIA. But don't be surprised to hear the same messages I have post here, only stronger. If there is one thing he absolutely hates, is the nonsense in acoustics posted on forums.

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post #92 of 267 Old 01-21-2014, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Never said it was.

I guess there is a need to review some basics about learning.

Answer me this Amir: Is it necessary to risk crashing a 747 in order to teach pilots how to recover from accidental mid-air mishaps like a stall? Or, is time spent in a flight simulator which as good as they are is not at all exactly the same thing as flying a real airplane, a good idea for teaching such things?

QED.
A simulation has to resemble reality. If it does not, then it teaches the wrong thing. As I explained, electronic simulation of first reflection sounds annoying. The real thing in a room, can sound pleasing. If you tried to train yourself using electronic means as you suggested, then you wind up with the completely opposite conclusion of reality and science. Hence my post. No flight simulator is used in applications where it would teach the pilot the opposite of what a real plane would do. And if it does, then the instructor would be sure to point it out and not try to teach the student pilot the wrong thing.

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post #93 of 267 Old 01-21-2014, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I wanted to mention that by far, the biggest reason misinformation persists is due to people not wanting to lose face. Once the say something here, they are loathe to correct it. Keith is a well mannered guy and indeed the REW thread is quite friendly. But try to tell Keith he is wrong and daggers come out. Worse yet, even when you show him that he is wrong, he will put cotton in his ears and refuse to listen.

I have struck exactly the same thing with Keith and a few other members here.

One example where Keith and FMW didn't obviously know the basics of crossovers and got all confused between separation of drivers to their relative power amps vs bypassing the crossovers altogether.

www.avsforum.com/t/1500557/bi-wiring-bi-amping-with-onkyo-605-viable/120#post_24055264

Rather than admit to being wrong, they talked about putting me on their ignore list instead.

Of course I have always been skeptical of the self appointed "experts" on internweb forums from previously been a keen photographer and seeing what happens in some photography forums...

www.avsforum.com/t/1500663/the-keep-it-cordial-initiative-whos-with-me#post_23992807

Many user forums seem to suffer from these common problems.

..
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post #94 of 267 Old 01-21-2014, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Never said it was.

I guess there is a need to review some basics about learning.

Answer me this Amir: Is it necessary to risk crashing a 747 in order to teach pilots how to recover from accidental mid-air mishaps like a stall? Or, is time spent in a flight simulator which as good as they are is not at all exactly the same thing as flying a real airplane, a good idea for teaching such things?

QED.
A simulation has to resemble reality.

Agreed.
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If it does not, then it teaches the wrong thing.

Agreed.
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As I explained, electronic simulation of first reflection sounds annoying. .

Assertion without proof or reliable evidence, noted.

Amir your assertion appears to be "There is no such thing as an electronic simulation of first reflection sounds that is not annoying.'

This is a negative hypothesis which is as some of us know, difficult or impossible to prove. Knock yourself out, Amir! ;-)

Here is some positive evidence for my assertion that there are practical electronic simulations of first reflection sounds that are pleasing:

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/p/pod/dod-idx/sound-spatializations-in-real-time.pdf?c=icmc;idno=bbp2372.1994.119

http://www.peutz.de/pdf/daga2009_10.pdf

http://www.trinnov.com/technologies/loudspeaker-room-optimization/3d-simulations/

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=10096

etc., etc.
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post #95 of 267 Old 01-21-2014, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

I have struck exactly the same thing with Keith and a few other members here.

One example where Keith and FMW didn't obviously know the basics of crossovers and got all confused between separation of drivers to their relative power amps vs bypassing the crossovers altogether.

www.avsforum.com/t/1500557/bi-wiring-bi-amping-with-onkyo-605-viable/120#post_24055264

Rather than admit to being wrong, they talked about putting me on their ignore list instead.

Of course I have always been skeptical of the self appointed "experts" on internweb forums from previously been a keen photographer and seeing what happens in some photography forums...

www.avsforum.com/t/1500663/the-keep-it-cordial-initiative-whos-with-me#post_23992807

Many user forums seem to suffer from these common problems.

..

Yeah, those darned self-appointed experts....

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1388090/benefit-of-bi-wire-speakers/120

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post #96 of 267 Old 01-21-2014, 03:39 PM
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Yeah, those darned self-appointed experts....

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1388090/benefit-of-bi-wire-speakers/120

Even as you concede there what I say may have been technically correct but the argument against it came down to "yeah, but is the difference audible?"

So basically what I am guilty of is going against the 'group think'.

Many social behavioural experts see the internet as a group consciousness that more and more people are assimilating into. They ask are the Cyborgs actually taking over the planet and we all now assimilate our thoughts and decision-making processes to whatever is the dominant group consciousness of whatever internet user group we happen to belong to. Are our own individual decision making processes giving way to 'group think'.

And what happens to the few people that go against the prevailing 'group think'..?

.
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post #97 of 267 Old 01-21-2014, 03:59 PM
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Magnetic fields everybody!!!!11!!!1

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post #98 of 267 Old 01-24-2014, 06:05 PM
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Yes, magnetic fields. Any current running through a wire creates a magnetic field. This is the reason two coils in a crossover are placed as far apart as practical and at 90° to each other. To reduce crosstalk.

Then the argument comes back to... "yeah, but is it audible" ... then the straw man of ... "it's just a way to sell twice as much expensive fancy cables!"... "so it's not worth it"

It's not that any view is particularly right or wrong it's just that is the common group think of AVS.

Except myself, like a lot of other people, just buy cheap speaker cable by the role from the local electronics shop for a couple of dollars per metre. So the cost of an extra couple of metres per side to my front speakers is totally insignificant.
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post #99 of 267 Old 01-24-2014, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Yes, magnetic fields. Any current running through a wire creates a magnetic field. This is the reason two coils in a crossover are placed as far apart as practical and at 90° to each other.
Poor analogy. In a xover each inductor will be carrying a different current and they are a single conductor, but in a typical figure 8 speaker cable, the two conductors are parallel and equal and opposite in polarity, so the magnetic fields cancel out.
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post #100 of 267 Old 01-24-2014, 08:47 PM
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Poor analogy. In a xover each inductor will be carrying a different current and they are a single conductor, but in a typical figure 8 speaker cable, the two conductors are parallel and equal and opposite in polarity, so the magnetic fields cancel out.

Well here's another electrician (or EE, can't remember exactly) that says otherwise...

www.avsforum.com/t/1408563/science-on-bi-wire/60#post_21987706

The point being that it isn't that big a deal if someone chooses to bi-wire or not. But yet why the absolute frenzy by many members here to ridicule and make fun of people that do? Are they really that so arrogant and sure of themselves..???
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post #101 of 267 Old 01-24-2014, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Well here's another electrician (or EE, can't remember exactly) that says otherwise...

www.avsforum.com/t/1408563/science-on-bi-wire/60#post_21987706
Let's just say at LF, ie audio, I disagree. I'm happy for you to post a well structured mathematical analysis or better yet some measurements to show the induction from one side of a biwire figure 8 pair to another.
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

The point being that it isn't that big a deal if someone chooses to bi-wire or not. But yet why the absolute frenzy by many members here to ridicule and make fun of people that do? Are they really that so arrogant and sure of themselves..???
This is merely your opinion on what I see happening in these threads, and by and large I disagree.
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post #102 of 267 Old 01-25-2014, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Poor analogy. In a xover each inductor will be carrying a different current and they are a single conductor, but in a typical figure 8 speaker cable, the two conductors are parallel and equal and opposite in polarity, so the magnetic fields cancel out.

Well here's another electrician (or EE, can't remember exactly) that says otherwise...

www.avsforum.com/t/1408563/science-on-bi-wire/60#post_21987706

Too bad about that! He gets to be wrong.

It is well known that the two magnetic fields around a 2 conductor cable largely (but of course not completely) cancel each other out. One consequence of this is that twisted pair cables have less inductance than the same two wires following vastly different paths. I've measured this and so there is no doubt in my mind.

If you want even better cancellation than what twisted pair provides, you make coaxial or shielded cable out of your two conductors.

This was all settled once and for all during the 1930s at the latest. I guess a few people didn't get the memo! ;-)
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The point being that it isn't that big a deal if someone chooses to bi-wire or not.

A superficial analysis might lead one to that conclusion. I see a bigger picture. There are strong influences in the audio world that seek to profit by tricking people into believing that science doesn't apply to audio. One common distraction along this line goes like this "Everybody's ears are different and so nobody can tell you what you can hear or can't hear". Another goes like this "The human ear is very complex and nobody understands how it works". Both statements are false.

The science of fields and waves cannot predict an audible benefit from biwiring, and over the years many have capitalized on this fact to claim that science doesn't apply to audio. Again, this is the result of a superficial analysis. Perceived audible benefits don't have to be the result of audio technology at all, they can be the result of social interactions and false education.

Does this big picture exist as I suggest? If there were no multi-million dollar marketplace for all kinds of anti-scientific quacks, tweaks and ineffective fixes, and publications that spew false science all over the place: I wouldn't have a leg to stand on! ;-)
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But yet why the absolute frenzy by many members here to ridicule and make fun of people that do? Are they really that so arrogant and sure of themselves..???

Instructing people to ignore well-established science takes far more arrogance than I can muster...
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post #103 of 267 Old 01-25-2014, 06:11 AM
 
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About blind-testing, you know with certain things like art - you see something, it "speaks to you" in certain ways. Other works of art does not "speak to you". A beautiful painting or even something that is not beautiful but peculiar and strange can have the same effect. But paintings come to mind. Now try double blind testing that..
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post #104 of 267 Old 01-25-2014, 06:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by arnyk 
One common distraction along this line goes like this "Everybody's ears are different and so nobody can tell you what you can hear or can't hear". Another goes like this "The human ear is very complex and nobody understands how it works". Both statements are false.

But everyone's ears are different. They aren't all shaped the same. The human ear is very complex, but unless you stick a probe in the brain to test if everyone is hearing the same things it's not going to have much validity. Right?
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post #105 of 267 Old 01-25-2014, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

About blind-testing, you know with certain things like art - you see something, it "speaks to you" in certain ways. Other works of art does not "speak to you". A beautiful painting or even something that is not beautiful but peculiar and strange can have the same effect. But paintings come to mind. Now try double blind testing that..

 

I think perhaps you are confusing art and science.

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post #106 of 267 Old 01-25-2014, 06:38 AM
 
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I think perhaps you are confusing art and science.

So audio gear is not partially art?
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post #107 of 267 Old 01-25-2014, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I think perhaps you are confusing art and science.

So audio gear is not partially art?

 

That is correct.

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post #108 of 267 Old 01-25-2014, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

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Originally Posted by arnyk 
One common distraction along this line goes like this "Everybody's ears are different and so nobody can tell you what you can hear or can't hear". Another goes like this "The human ear is very complex and nobody understands how it works". Both statements are false.

But everyone's ears are different. They aren't all shaped the same.

So what? Everybody is different from everybody else in virtually every part of their body. DNA anybody? ;-) Does that mean that we can't make some generalizations about people? Is there anybody so different that they can run a 1 minute mile?

The next question to ask is: "How relevant are the observed differences to...?"

For example how relevant is the shape of the bumps on one's head to say one's ability to hear pure tones at 5 KHz? 35 KHz?

There is no known connection between normal bumps on people's heads and their ability to to hear pure tones at 5 KHz or 35 KHz! The bumps just are.

Everybody with even vaguely normal hearing can hear pure tones at 5 KHz, and nobody can hear the effects of a brick wall filter at 34 KHz.

Thus, the claim "Everybody's ears are different and so nobody can tell you what you can hear or can't hear" is a false conclusion based on a true fact.
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The human ear is very complex, but unless you stick a probe in the brain to test if everyone is hearing the same things it's not going to have much validity. Right?

Same problem. The generality needs to be appropriate to the relevant parameters.

BTW- we can stick probes into people's brains - especially non-invasive ones based on magnetism and things like CAT scans and MRIs. We can also stick real invasive probes into the brains of animals that humans share relevant characteristics with. It is all about inference!
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post #109 of 267 Old 01-25-2014, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

About blind-testing, you know with certain things like art - you see something, it "speaks to you" in certain ways. Other works of art does not "speak to you". A beautiful painting or even something that is not beautiful but peculiar and strange can have the same effect. But paintings come to mind. Now try double blind testing that..

Be that as it may, it is irrelevant to most blind testing of audio gear.

A lot of blind testing of audio gear is about something like - can you see the difference between these two works of art?

Generally the differences between different works are art are there, no contest. It is generally safe to presume that and move on.

Through decades of experimentation we have found that a similar presumption does not apply to audio gear.

Heinrich, I am beginning to suspect that you have never passed a rabbit hole that you didn't want to jump into. ;-)
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post #110 of 267 Old 01-25-2014, 08:38 AM
 
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So what? Everybody is different from everybody else in virtually every part of their body. DNA anybody? ;-) Does that mean that we can't make some generalizations about people? Is there anybody so different that they can run a 1 minute mile?

The next question to ask is: "How relevant are the observed differences to...?"

For example how relevant is the shape of the bumps on one's head to say one's ability to hear pure tones at 5 KHz? 35 KHz?

There is no known connection between normal bumps on people's heads and their ability to to hear pure tones at 5 KHz or 35 KHz! The bumps just are.

Bumps???

But some people have a more acute sense of hearing than others. Some have better sensitivity for picking up subtle differences in sound. Trained listeners come to mind. Musicians ... etc.
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Everybody with even vaguely normal hearing can hear pure tones at 5 KHz, and nobody can hear the effects of a brick wall filter at 34 KHz.

How do you know that nobody can? Are there universal laws as to what humans can and can't hear? If so, where and what are they?
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post #111 of 267 Old 01-25-2014, 08:42 AM
 
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There are some that see everything as either black or white that denigrate anyone that sees shades of grey. There are extremes in everything , the "black and whiteists" are one extreme and those that sprout pseudo science drivel are on the other side.

I don't subscribe to absolutes.
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post #112 of 267 Old 01-25-2014, 09:02 AM
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There are some that see everything as either black or white that denigrate anyone that sees shades of grey. There are extremes in everything , the "black and whiteists" are one extreme and those that sprout pseudo science drivel are on the other side.

I don't subscribe to absolutes.

A common misconception is that all measurable differences are audible. Most of these things can be resolved easily with bias controlled listening tests. For instance, we had a panel of 10 audiophiles for our tests and the results were pretty consistent throughout the group. Our conclusion was that golden ears probably didn't exist. I don't doubt that there are differences in people's hearing acutity. But I do doubt that those differences are enough to allow one person to hear an internconnect cable while others cannot.
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post #113 of 267 Old 01-25-2014, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

There are some that see everything as either black or white that denigrate anyone that sees shades of grey. There are extremes in everything , the "black and whiteists" are one extreme and those that sprout pseudo science drivel are on the other side.

I don't subscribe to absolutes.

I think that there are absolutes in some areas, shades of gray in others and relative items in still other areas. I think the trick is to figure out which is which and treat them accordingly. I think that people who don't believe in absolutes are just as out of touch with reality as those who see nothing but black and white.
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post #114 of 267 Old 01-25-2014, 09:12 AM
 
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I think that there are absolutes in some areas, shades of gray in others and relative items in still other areas. I think the trick is to figure out which is which and treat them accordingly. I think that people who don't believe in absolutes are just as out of touch with reality as those who see nothing but black and white.

Well those who believe something either exists or doesn't exist is a black or white situation.
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post #115 of 267 Old 01-25-2014, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That is correct [that there is no art in audio design].
If all you are doing is cutting and pasting other people's designs, that is true. But if you are creating your own design, art is ever present. Imagine designing an amplifier and you have a choice of infinite circuit topologies and components. What science-only path gets you to the solution and if there is such, why doesn't everyone arrive at the exact same amplifier circuit and components?

If you are reading this text on a modern computer or tablet/phone, there are multiple CPU cores. Turning all of them on increases power consumption significantly. The system then tries to predict the load and shut the cores down if it thinks they are not needed. No one can predict the future of course. So we rely on heuristics of the past. Such heuristics come from experience and the art of engineer. There is no cookbook path to get you there. You are forced to imagine a solution. No different than an artist using imagination to figure out what to paint. Why did apple put a wheel on the original iPod?

Your signature points to art: not what you typed smile.gif. But the room correction technology. Analyzing a room response is highly complex. Audyssey for example tries to optimize response across multiple seats. How would one make trade offs that screws up one seat but improves another? Audyssey uses fuzzy clustering in order to make that decision. Yes, fuzzy logic is a science. But application of it to this field, is not.

An example of lack of art is in mass application of above. If you are building an AVR, you would not touch Audyssey unless it is a) already developed for you and b) is already implemented and optimized for the DSP you are using. In other words, mass market companies are in the business of cutting and pasting components. Their value add is in finding the right package of them, put them in a case that makes it look more expensive than it is, and sell it to everyone.

Here is a quick video that speaks to the same point:

You probably don't know this but the very foundation of that video, youtube, is using art to get that video to you in optimal way. THe video encoder has a set of tools at its disposal to decide how to most optimally compress the video in reasonable amount of time. As the video is encoded, it uses the art that is embodied in its design to make (hopefully) optimized decisions.

To a layman it may seem as you say but ask any experienced engineer and they would surely disagree.

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post #116 of 267 Old 01-25-2014, 10:08 AM
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I think that there are absolutes in some areas, shades of gray in others and relative items in still other areas. I think the trick is to figure out which is which and treat them accordingly. I think that people who don't believe in absolutes are just as out of touch with reality as those who see nothing but black and white.

Well those who believe something either exists or doesn't exist is a black or white situation.

Do you believe that you have personally experienced reliable examples of perpetual motion, yes or no? ;-)
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post #117 of 267 Old 01-25-2014, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

A common misconception is that all measurable differences are audible. Most of these things can be resolved easily with bias controlled listening tests. For instance, we had a panel of 10 audiophiles for our tests and the results were pretty consistent throughout the group. Our conclusion was that golden ears probably didn't exist. I don't doubt that there are differences in people's hearing acuity. But I do doubt that those differences are enough to allow one person to hear an internconnect cable while others cannot.

What I think is the differences in listened training are bigger than differences in hearing acuity. What I mean by this is some people are more acute listeners.

Example: Like any of us with audio systems, I have guests over from time to time. Sometimes I will bring up a specific issue regarding what I am hearing, say the stage location for an instrument. Some folks that come over can easily identify and hone their focus to a specific instrument and tell me where they are hearing it on the soundstage. Where others just go "huh ?".

Example: Others that initially had difficulty making listening discernments got better at it over repeated visits.

Example: There was a period of 4 or 5 months where my system was completely down. Once I got it going again, I realized I had lost my edge in discerning certain differences in what I heard that were easy before. Over the following few weeks of critical listening, I regained my former acuity.

So in my mind, if you take a group of average untrained listeners vs trained ones, the kind of audible subtlety that each group can discern will be quite different.
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post #118 of 267 Old 01-25-2014, 10:12 AM
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So what? Everybody is different from everybody else in virtually every part of their body. DNA anybody? ;-) Does that mean that we can't make some generalizations about people? Is there anybody so different that they can run a 1 minute mile?

The next question to ask is: "How relevant are the observed differences to...?"

For example how relevant is the shape of the bumps on one's head to say one's ability to hear pure tones at 5 KHz? 35 KHz?

There is no known connection between normal bumps on people's heads and their ability to to hear pure tones at 5 KHz or 35 KHz! The bumps just are.

Bumps???

But some people have a more acute sense of hearing than others. Some have better sensitivity for picking up subtle differences in sound. Trained listeners come to mind. Musicians ... etc.

True but do you believe that those differences exist within a range or are they absolutely unbounded?

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Everybody with even vaguely normal hearing can hear pure tones at 5 KHz, and nobody can hear the effects of a brick wall filter at 34 KHz.

How do you know that nobody can?

The results of a decades-long and very thorough search.
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Are there universal laws as to what humans can and can't hear? If so, where and what are they?

You can find evidence related to their existence in Zwicker & Fastl's Psychoacoustics Facts and Models.

http://www.amazon.com/Psychoacoustics-Models-Springer-Information-Sciences/dp/3540650636

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post #119 of 267 Old 01-25-2014, 10:15 AM
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A common misconception is that all measurable differences are audible. Most of these things can be resolved easily with bias controlled listening tests. For instance, we had a panel of 10 audiophiles for our tests and the results were pretty consistent throughout the group. Our conclusion was that golden ears probably didn't exist. I don't doubt that there are differences in people's hearing acuity. But I do doubt that those differences are enough to allow one person to hear an internconnect cable while others cannot.

What I think is the differences in listened training are bigger than differences in hearing acuity. What I mean by this is some people are more acute listeners.

Example: Like any of us with audio systems, I have guests over from time to time. Sometimes I will bring up a specific issue regarding what I am hearing, say the stage location for an instrument. Some folks that come over can easily identify and hone their focus to a specific instrument and tell me where they are hearing it on the soundstage. Where others just go "huh ?".

Example: Other still that initially had difficulty making listening discernments got better at it over repeated visits.

Example: There was a period of 4 or 5 months where my system was completely down. Once I got it going again, I realized I had lost my edge in discerning certain differences in what I heard that were easy before. Over the following few weeks of critical listening, I regained my former acuity.

So in my mind, if you take a group of average untrained listeners vs trained ones, the kind of audible subtlety that each group can discern will be quite different.

One caveat is that I think that it is unreasonable to expect people to hear things that exist only in your imagination.

This begs the question of how do you know what you perceive is reliable or imaginary or an illusion?

I claim that people often hear audible illusions and even things that are imaginary, and that reliable listening tests often give compelling evidence about their existence.
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post #120 of 267 Old 01-25-2014, 10:17 AM
 
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You can find evidence related to their existence in Zwicker & Fastl's Psychoacoustics Facts and Models.

It this universally agreed upon by all reliable and credible authorities?
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