Question on bi-amping - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 1044 Old 11-22-2013, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Because that is one of the use cases of bi-amping. You define the condition and then explain if bi-amping helps or doesn't.
I have read it. This is how it ended "Would this type of set up be of any benefit? Is this still passive bi-amping, not active? I'm not clued up on passive vs active. Any technical explanations would be most helpful."

He is looking for a technical explanation. He is not asking if I change one amp for the other the sound changes or not. Or whether a more expensive amp is worth it or not. But sure, you guys can argue that. But don't try to force me to get involved. My interest in this thread is to continue the discussion on bi-amping.

Amir,
I'm afraid that where passive biamping is concerned, the technical discussion of amp configurations amounts to a pile of beans. It seems agreed by the vast consensus that there isn't anything signicant in the amp design that will overcome the speaker crossover/controller limitations.

If you disagree, please share your list of meaningful measurable outputs.
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post #542 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It's another straw man. Can’t win the argument using acoustic science so switch it something that might stand a chance of flying. First it was consumer choice, now it's 'engineering appreciation'. No mention of sound quality because he's already lost that argument.

No doubt about it.

Sound quality argument - sacked, Max SPL - two yard gain, Reliability - no gain, ... hmmm, the odds are long. Time to punt. No wait. It looks like... Can it be , he's trying a surprise Engineering beauty play!!! Look at the big toroidal transformer, the glowing lights, and the shiny metal knobs. Can you believe it, folks!

I confess, I didn't see that one coming.

 

 

LOL!  Nice analysis.

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post #543 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 04:00 AM
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Ignores the fact that some of the amps mentioned on this thread as alternatives to Bryston have switchmode power supplies and therefore have reasonable shipping weights. What makes this particularly gaulling is that I seem to recall Amir bragging about being a Crown dealer.
 

 

I am not in any way suggesting that Amir's store does this, but it would not be unreasonable IMO for a dealer in 'high end' audiophile gear to stock something like the Crown amp in order to specifically use it in a sighted evaluation with the objective of 'proving' the superiority of the 'high end' amp. Even the biggest fans of Crown amps (I own one) would have to agree that they look pig ugly and rather 'cheap' - and to make things worse, look - when I pick it up it weighs nothing compared with this nice, heavy 'high end' amp. Everyone knows that if something is heavy it must be 'quality', right?. Conclusion: Crown amp no good, 'high end' amp, sold. Kerchiiing!  Next stop: now Sir would not want to partner that $7,000 amp with a really cheap interconnect, would he?  Step this way and examine our 'high end' interconnects, starting at just $100 a metre..... kerchiiing!

 

Maybe decades of exposure to retailers has made me somewhat cynical.

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post #544 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 05:21 AM
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I think it is just decades of exposure to the audio industry.wink.gif
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post #545 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 05:35 AM
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Assuming a TWO channel Rotel amp and 7.1 Receiver as the controller, passive biamping cannot be avoided. The Receiver's REAR (SURROUND) channel pre-amp outputs would be connected to the Rotel L/R inputs and power the low frequency drivers. The Marantz front channel amps power the high frequencies. No need for splitter cables. Passive biamp, but limited to 5.1 surround.

If wanting 7.1 channels and the Rotel is multi-channel, a splitter is needed between Marantz pre-outs and the Rotel inputs. Still passive biamp without an external crossover.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/bi-wire_bi-amp.htm

"From the listener's perspective, if all goes well, the sound quality should remain exactly the same. However, the placebo effect insures that most folks who passively bi-amp their music systems report a sonic improvement. ... However, if doubling the system's amplifier power is necessary, it would be cheaper to buy (for example) one 200 watt stereo amplifier than two 100 watt stereo power amps of the same quality to get the same result."
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post #546 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

I think it is just decades of exposure to the audio industry.wink.gif

 

Could be. I have been exposed to some really bad retailers though (that in fact would be pretty much all of the ones I have been exposed to). Staff lack knowledge, huge bias towards certain product lines (those with the biggest margin?), complete ignorance of acoustics, belief in 'magic' products, eg cables, and so on. All in all, they have cost me thousands, tens of thousands in fact, of wasted dollars thanks to their ignorance and lack of understanding of basics. I am not saying they are all like this, just all those I have been exposed to. The box shifters are bad and the 'high end' dealers just as bad but in a different way. Thankfully, we have forums like this nowadays...

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post #547 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

I think it is just decades of exposure to the audio industry.wink.gif

Could be. I have been exposed to some really bad retailers though (that in fact would be pretty much all of the ones I have been exposed to). Staff lack knowledge, huge bias towards certain product lines (those with the biggest margin?), complete ignorance of acoustics, belief in 'magic' products, eg cables, and so on. All in all, they have cost me thousands, tens of thousands in fact, of wasted dollars thanks to their ignorance and lack of understanding of basics. I am not saying they are all like this, just all those I have been exposed to. The box shifters are bad and the 'high end' dealers just as bad but in a different way. Thankfully, we have forums like this nowadays...

Let me put it this way. It has long been my experience that people who deal with customers can be too well informed about their products for their own financial good, or the financial good of their employers. This extends through not only salesmen on the floor but their supervisors and managers and even manfacturers reps and sales engineers. Once you know too much you see enough different sides of the story to loose the focus that charactizes the most profitable salesmen. That's one reason why I left sales at an early age. Later on in life I have been aware of the career progress of other individuals who fell into the trap of being too technical to be the best at sale. I have found that they generally obtain their greatest success in other areas of endeavor.

I'm not saying this is right, I'm saying this is how it often seems to be.
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post #548 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Could be. I have been exposed to some really bad retailers though (that in fact would be pretty much all of the ones I have been exposed to). Staff lack knowledge, huge bias towards certain product lines (those with the biggest margin?), complete ignorance of acoustics, belief in 'magic' products, eg cables, and so on. All in all, they have cost me thousands, tens of thousands in fact, of wasted dollars thanks to their ignorance and lack of understanding of basics. I am not saying they are all like this, just all those I have been exposed to. The box shifters are bad and the 'high end' dealers just as bad but in a different way. Thankfully, we have forums like this nowadays...


Whats the old saying, Dazzle them with Brilliant's, think Razzle Dazzle in the movie Chicago or Baffle them with Bull S--T, the kind that comes out of say DC. That is about the what you get in both the box shifters, the Best Bays of the world or the very high end found on the block in town that has the trendy clubs, bars, and clothing stores.
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post #549 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

http://www.chuckhawks.com/bi-wire_bi-amp.htm

"From the listener's perspective, if all goes well, the sound quality should remain exactly the same. However, the placebo effect insures that most folks who passively bi-amp their music systems report a sonic improvement. ... However, if doubling the system's amplifier power is necessary, it would be cheaper to buy (for example) one 200 watt stereo amplifier than two 100 watt stereo power amps of the same quality to get the same result."

I've mentioned this quote/article before, and commented on the following:

- Hawks readily concedes that biamping DOES provide more power! The following sentence was deleted from Hawk's quote above: "The system's total amplifier power has been doubled, which is probably a good thing and may actually result in a sonic improvement at high listening levels."

- Hawks is not correct that it is necessarily cheaper to buy 1 more powerful amp. Plus some people have the option to biamp with the gear they already have, so why go out and buy a 3rd more powerful amp to replace 2 that you already have?

- Hawks has admitted elsewhere that he is not enough of a technician to answer questions about his article. Credible source??
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post #550 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I am not in any way suggesting that Amir's store does this, but it would not be unreasonable IMO for a dealer in 'high end' audiophile gear to stock something like the Crown amp in order to specifically use it in a sighted evaluation with the objective of 'proving' the superiority of the 'high end' amp. Even the biggest fans of Crown amps (I own one) would have to agree that they look pig ugly and rather 'cheap' - and to make things worse, look - when I pick it up it weighs nothing compared with this nice, heavy 'high end' amp. Everyone knows that if something is heavy it must be 'quality', right?. Conclusion: Crown amp no good, 'high end' amp, sold. Kerchiiing! Next stop: now Sir would not want to partner that $7,000 amp with a really cheap interconnect, would he? Step this way and examine our 'high end' interconnects, starting at just $100 a metre..... kerchiiing!

Maybe decades of exposure to retailers has made me somewhat cynical.
You should always be on guard in reading people's posts here. Not just for commercial interest but personal/emotional interests. Some of you have adopted an anti-high-end religion and are on a mission to stamp out anyone who as much breaths a word about any benefits there. You may very well right but the rightness is not the motivation. The religion is. Good example is in this thread. OP asks, "I'm not clued up on passive vs active. Any technical explanations would be most helpful." This is the answer that Arny gave on the second post to that comment: "Passive biamping = audiophile myth." OP did not ask for commentary. He asked for *technical explanation*. None were given in that post about passive bi-amping. Just that damning statement. A statement that we know this far into the thread that was based on some technical assumptions that were not correct.

For your part, you know the real reasoning behind your posts regarding me. I argued with you that your point of view on acoustics is wrong. This went on for a few weeks resulting in you walking around with these off-topic posts. If you were a straight shooter as we say in states, you would stay on topic and not derail a technical discussion with such made up hypotheticals that you did not even research to know to be right by your own admission. You say that you are so biased in this regard that you should be allowed to draw conclusions as such. If someone did a sighted AB tests you would be all over them due to potential bias. But when it comes to topics involving yourself, you don't see your personal bias interfering with your views and actions as posted here. They do nothing but add noise to the conversation. Anyone coming here wants to read about technical aspects of bi-amping. Instead, they have to read this random post from you totally unrelated to the topic at hand, indicating bickering among members.

So no, there are no angels in any of these conversations smile.gif.

Let me provide some data on your accusation anyway with the hopes that you realize you need to research these things before throwing them out. Yes, my company "sells" a ton of Crown amps. If we are lucky, we may sell one "high-end" amp for every 100 Crowns. Why do we use them? Because for their specific application they are superb. Almost all of my company's business is in custom electronics where we go to people's homes or businesses and outfit them with audio, video, security, automation, etc. Distributed audio is a standard feature of these jobs. People in our industry use products designed for the industry. We don't use them because they don't have a key thing in them: the powerful DSP processing that crown amps nicely integrate in them. My designer that I spoke of before is probably the most knowledgeable person outside of Harman on programming these DSPs using London Architect. In every job we use the DSP to perform a range of functions from providing protection for the in-wall speakers to optimizing them for the acoustics of the room.

Another major use for the Crown amp is to drive non-active subs. We use a lot of commercial components here from JBL subs to Danley. And in a number of situations, we design our own to comply with the look or space that the customer has for them (our competitors only use off-the-shelf products and make it the customer’s problem to make them fit). They all come without amplification and require gobs of power. Our go-to-amp is the Crown. ( In some situations we use Lab Gruppen and QSC.)

Would we sell a Crown to an audiophile? Of course not. It has a fan and you can’t put that in a high-end listening space. Rarely do they have hidden racks as we have in custom projects we do. Those massive heat sinks in consumer amps do have a use: they do away with the fan. A fan is a lot cheaper than massive chunk of extruded aluminum (but needs airflow which the fan does not need as much of).

Here are some examples of Crown installation which were documented on our web site in the articles section which I have pointed you at, but you say you will refuse to go and read them. Here is the Seattle Wheel (http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/Seattle%20Great%20Wheel.html).
SeattleGreatWheel.jpg
Everything is Pro gear there with specific reason. Here is the JBL CBT speakers in that installation:
GreatWheelCBTSpeakers.jpg
Here is the high-end Mercedes dealership we did: http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/BarrierMercedesBenz.html
And the stack of Crown amps in the equipment room:
BarrierCrown.jpg

You can read the articles section of our web site for more examples: http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/Library.html

Net, net, your "decades of exposure to retailers" has prejudice your views and is not helping you in this regard. I don't know of a single retailer who puts up articles like above in their web site let alone have them be ones that were published in major magazines. So please, let's stay focused on the technical points OP raised. As we say, "this dog don't hunt." biggrin.gif
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post #551 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I am not in any way suggesting that Amir's store does this, but it would not be unreasonable IMO for a dealer in 'high end' audiophile gear to stock something like the Crown amp in order to specifically use it in a sighted evaluation with the objective of 'proving' the superiority of the 'high end' amp. Even the biggest fans of Crown amps (I own one) would have to agree that they look pig ugly and rather 'cheap' - and to make things worse, look - when I pick it up it weighs nothing compared with this nice, heavy 'high end' amp. Everyone knows that if something is heavy it must be 'quality', right?. Conclusion: Crown amp no good, 'high end' amp, sold. Kerchiiing! Next stop: now Sir would not want to partner that $7,000 amp with a really cheap interconnect, would he? Step this way and examine our 'high end' interconnects, starting at just $100 a metre..... kerchiiing!

Maybe decades of exposure to retailers has made me somewhat cynical.
You should always be on guard in reading people's posts here. Not just for commercial interest but personal/emotional interests. Some of you have adopted an anti-high-end religion and are on a mission to stamp out anyone who as much breaths a word about any benefits there. You may very well right but the rightness is not the motivation. The religion is. Good example is in this thread. OP asks, "I'm not clued up on passive vs active. Any technical explanations would be most helpful." This is the answer that Arny gave on the second post to that comment: "Passive biamping = audiophile myth." OP did not ask for commentary. He asked for *technical explanation*. None were given in that post about passive bi-amping. Just that damning statement. A statement that we know this far into the thread that was based on some technical assumptions that were not correct.

For your part, you know the real reasoning behind your posts regarding me. I argued with you that your point of view on acoustics is wrong. This went on for a few weeks resulting in you walking around with these off-topic posts. If you were a straight shooter as we say in states, you would stay on topic and not derail a technical discussion with such made up hypotheticals that you did not even research to know to be right by your own admission. You say that you are so biased in this regard that you should be allowed to draw conclusions as such. If someone did a sighted AB tests you would be all over them due to potential bias. But when it comes to topics involving yourself, you don't see your personal bias interfering with your views and actions as posted here. They do nothing but add noise to the conversation. Anyone coming here wants to read about technical aspects of bi-amping. Instead, they have to read this random post from you totally unrelated to the topic at hand, indicating bickering among members.

So no, there are no angels in any of these conversations smile.gif.

Let me provide some data on your accusation anyway with the hopes that you realize you need to research these things before throwing them out. Yes, my company "sells" a ton of Crown amps. If we are lucky, we may sell one "high-end" amp for every 100 Crowns. Why do we use them? Because for their specific application they are superb. Almost all of my company's business is in custom electronics where we go to people's homes or businesses and outfit them with audio, video, security, automation, etc. Distributed audio is a standard feature of these jobs. People in our industry use products designed for the industry. We don't use them because they don't have a key thing in them: the powerful DSP processing that crown amps nicely integrate in them. My designer that I spoke of before is probably the most knowledgeable person outside of Harman on programming these DSPs using London Architect. In every job we use the DSP to perform a range of functions from providing protection for the in-wall speakers to optimizing them for the acoustics of the room.

Another major use for the Crown amp is to drive non-active subs. We use a lot of commercial components here from JBL subs to Danley. And in a number of situations, we design our own to comply with the look or space that the customer has for them (our competitors only use off-the-shelf products and make it the customer’s problem to make them fit). They all come without amplification and require gobs of power. Our go-to-amp is the Crown. ( In some situations we use Lab Gruppen and QSC.)

Would we sell a Crown to an audiophile? Of course not. It has a fan and you can’t put that in a high-end listening space. Rarely do they have hidden racks as we have in custom projects we do. Those massive heat sinks in consumer amps do have a use: they do away with the fan. A fan is a lot cheaper than massive chunk of extruded aluminum (but needs airflow which the fan does not need as much of).

Here are some examples of Crown installation which were documented on our web site in the articles section which I have pointed you at, but you say you will refuse to go and read them. Here is the Seattle Wheel (http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/Seattle%20Great%20Wheel.html).
SeattleGreatWheel.jpg
Everything is Pro gear there with specific reason. Here is the JBL CBT speakers in that installation:
GreatWheelCBTSpeakers.jpg
Here is the high-end Mercedes dealership we did: http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/BarrierMercedesBenz.html
And the stack of Crown amps in the equipment room:
BarrierCrown.jpg

You can read the articles section of our web site for more examples: http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/Library.html

Net, net, your "decades of exposure to retailers" has prejudice your views and is not helping you in this regard. I don't know of a single retailer who puts up articles like above in their web site let alone have them be ones that were published in major magazines. So please, let's stay focused on the technical points OP raised. As we say, "this dog don't hunt." biggrin.gif

LMAO thanks for the laugh amir. can always count on you for some comic relief.

and no i didnt read your post...i fell out of my chair in stitches when i got to that line.

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!
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post #552 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 08:03 AM
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Here is a diagram of my Rotel amp for bi-amping or are the engineers at Rotel clueless?

Rotel Bi-amping.png 428k .png file
Not quite the OP, but it is back on Page One.

No, they are not clueless. If you hook it up as shown in the upper schematic (Illustration 3?), you will theoretically get a quadrupling of available power (i.e., 60 watts > 240 watts). With the switch set to the left (non-stereo) position, the input signal likely is internally phase-inverted and then presented as inputs to the left and right amplifier blocks. This is "bridge mode," where the load is driven by both positive and negative power supply halves simultaneously, rather than just from (+) or (-) to ground. So you have twice the voltage (four times the power) available for the same signal input.

(Without the presumed bridge-mode phase-inversion of the input signal, Illustration 3 would denote a common signal fed to the Left and Right channels with the output taken as a differential output between them, resulting in zero output -- hardly a useful scenario.)

In practice, the fourfold increase in power will be reduced depending on power supply capabilities and program waveform. At the Bryston and Levinson level, not by much. At the Rotel and AVR level, probably about half. And in some ganga-fueled Metallica situations you might engage overcurrent protection circuitry, or even smoke the amplifier.
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post #553 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Even the biggest fans of Crown amps (I own one) would have to agree that they look pig ugly and rather 'cheap' - and to make things worse, look - when I pick it up it weighs nothing compared with this nice, heavy 'high end' amp. Everyone knows that if something is heavy it must be 'quality', right?
Ah, no.

My trusty Crown DC-300A still looks quite elegant, but not in an overblown way that screams "I'M MADE ONLY TO COST YOU LOTS OF MONEY". As for weight, 40 lbs. is heavy enough for people who don't swill testosterone and HGH. I need two hands to carry one. What matters is that the construction is solid, as is the performance.

One dirty little secret that the boutique salespeople don't want you to know is that all halfway decent amps sound pretty much identical as long as they're run withing their linear range. When I consider that only an idiot would run an amp outside of its linear range...well, I suppose the real answer is that the world has no shortage of fools. biggrin.gif

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post #554 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Even the biggest fans of Crown amps (I own one) would have to agree that they look pig ugly and rather 'cheap' - and to make things worse, look - when I pick it up it weighs nothing compared with this nice, heavy 'high end' amp. Everyone knows that if something is heavy it must be 'quality', right?
Ah, no.

My trusty Crown DC-300A still looks quite elegant, but not in an overblown way that screams "I'M MADE ONLY TO COST YOU LOTS OF MONEY". As for weight, 40 lbs. is heavy enough for people who don't swill testosterone and HGH. I need two hands to carry one. What matters is that the construction is solid, as is the performance.

One dirty little secret that the boutique salespeople don't want you to know is that all halfway decent amps sound pretty much identical as long as they're run withing their linear range. When I consider that only an idiot would run an amp outside of its linear range...well, I suppose the real answer is that the world has no shortage of fools. biggrin.gif

 

:)  You mistook my remark for a serious one :)

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post #555 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 09:59 AM
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I am not in any way suggesting that Amir's store does this, but it would not be unreasonable IMO for a dealer in 'high end' audiophile gear to stock something like the Crown amp in order to specifically use it in a sighted evaluation with the objective of 'proving' the superiority of the 'high end' amp. Even the biggest fans of Crown amps (I own one) would have to agree that they look pig ugly and rather 'cheap' - and to make things worse, look - when I pick it up it weighs nothing compared with this nice, heavy 'high end' amp. Everyone knows that if something is heavy it must be 'quality', right?. Conclusion: Crown amp no good, 'high end' amp, sold. Kerchiiing! Next stop: now Sir would not want to partner that $7,000 amp with a really cheap interconnect, would he? Step this way and examine our 'high end' interconnects, starting at just $100 a metre..... kerchiiing!

Maybe decades of exposure to retailers has made me somewhat cynical.
LMAO thanks for the laugh amir. can always count on you for some comic relief.

 

 

Oh my. I don't normally read Amir's posts as I don't find all the cut and paste and digressions in them very interesting, but I see them when they are quoted. Quite the diatribe from him there. I guess he failed to read the very first line of my post (highlighted above) in which I was very specifically careful to exclude his store from my following remarks. 

 

It is also highly comical that he accuses me of being off topic. I’d guess that, when I did used to tolerate his posts, at least half were very much OT, often to pursue an agenda of some sort.

 

I wonder why he replied at such huge length to a post that opened by stating it was deliberately not targeted at him. I must have touched a nerve or something :)

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post #556 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 10:01 AM
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smile.gif  You mistook my remark for a serious one smile.gif
OK, fair enough. smile.gif

Has anyone figured out that biamping requires the crossover filters to go before the power stage? Just curious...

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post #557 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereoforsale View Post

- Hawks readily concedes that biamping DOES provide more power! The following sentence was deleted from Hawk's quote above: "The system's total amplifier power has been doubled, which is probably a good thing and may actually result in a sonic improvement at high listening levels."
- Hawks has admitted elsewhere that he is not enough of a technician to answer questions about his article. Credible source??

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post #558 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

Here is a diagram of my Rotel amp for bi-amping or are the engineers at Rotel clueless?

Rotel Bi-amping.png 428k .png file
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Originally Posted by PrimeTime View Post

Not quite the OP, but it is back on Page One.

No, they are not clueless. If you hook it up as shown in the upper schematic (Illustration 3?).................................


But he's referring specifically to the LOWER diagram (#4) showing the passive biamping configuration.

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post #559 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

But he's referring specifically to the LOWER diagram (#4) showing the passive biamping configuration.
LOL...the "engineers" at Rotel are indeed clueless.

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post #560 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

But he's referring specifically to the LOWER diagram (#4) showing the passive biamping configuration.
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Originally Posted by Speed Daemon View Post

LOL...the "engineers" at Rotel are indeed clueless.

Ummm, I guess that could be one conclusion. But it'd be incorrect. wink.gif

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post #561 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

. Should anything happen to it, you can return it to your dealer to pack and ship to Bryston. Good luck packing and paying for shipping of massive power amp back to Emotiva. In my opinion, one of the worst ideas is to buy a monster amp using mail order. Many are so heavy that require crates and such just to ship them back!.

*That reminds me of my Nad 7 channel T977 I purchased locally , it's hugely heavy and can be a chore to pick it up if necessary.
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post #562 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post


But he's referring specifically to the LOWER diagram (#4) showing the passive biamping configuration.
I read references to "bi amping," but it's not explicit that his post is about the lower schematic (which may or may not be "Illustration 4.") It seems that he is concerned with using two stereo amplifiers to get more available power to his rig. To that end, Rotel's suggested hookup in the upper schematic would indeed provide that. It is to the credit of Rotel's engineers that they provided the means to readily implement this configuration.

All of this might have been clarified earlier had one particular responder actually examined the schematics, as requested by the poster, instead of the rather flippant "I don't need to look at it" reaction.
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post #563 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinrich S View Post

Here is a diagram of my Rotel amp for bi-amping..................
smile.gif
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Originally Posted by PrimeTime View Post

I read references to "bi amping," but it's not explicit that his post is about the lower schematic (which may or may not be "Illustration 4.") It seems that he is concerned with using two stereo amplifiers to get more available power to his rig. To that end, Rotel's suggested hookup in the upper schematic would indeed provide that.
To repeat:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

But he's referring specifically to the LOWER diagram (#4) showing the passive biamping configuration.

Of course he's referring to the lower diagram. The lower diagram (which is "Illustration 4") is the only one in his link that is relevant to biamping. And all he is saying is: 'why would they include that diagram if passive biamping has no merit?'

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post #564 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 01:23 PM
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The lower Illustration (3? 4? -- I still can't tell) is more commonly associated with "bi-wiring," as has been mentioned. A dealer selling a lot of Monster Cable could stretch that into "bi-amping" without outright falsehood as it does involve using two amplifiers.

What was interesting to me is that, after a few posts debunking this approach, no one attempted to read through this poster's goal and address it -- that is, how do I get more power to my rig with an extra stereo amplifier.

Normally this is difficult to do as you can't usually just parallel up two power amplifier channels, but in this case Rotel provided the means to easily bridge-mode the amplifier, which is not seen often in a domestic-class unit. And what did Rotel's engineers garner from the group here for going that extra mile? Scorn and derision.

Sheesh.

And, if used as part of a conventional bi-amped system (i.e., with subwoofers and complementary highpass filtering feeding it), running that system in bridge mode would bring a substantial improvement in headroom, clarity and output over the presumably plain-Jane, full-range non-bridged setup.
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post #565 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeTime View Post

The lower Illustration (3? 4? -- I still can't tell) is more commonly associated with "bi-wiring," as has been mentioned. A dealer selling a lot of Monster Cable could stretch that into "bi-amping" without outright falsehood as it does involve using two amplifiers.

What was interesting to me is that, after a few posts debunking this approach, no one attempted to read through this poster's goal and address it -- that is, how do I get more power to my rig with an extra stereo amplifier.

The first approach that comes to mind is bridging.

However, this has its own difficulties. First off, if you don't have amplifiers that are have this as a supported feature, you on your own when it comes to the necessary polarity inversion function. Secondly, bridging doubles both the output voltage and the output current, and while the amps may have adequate current for normal use, there are no a priori guarantees about bridged operation. Amps that are not made for this kind of service may be damaged.
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Normally this is difficult to do as you can't usually just parallel up two power amplifier channels, but in this case Rotel provided the means to easily bridge-mode the amplifier, which is not seen often in a domestic-class unit. And what did Rotel's engineers garner from the group here for going that extra mile? Scorn and derision.

I don't recall any mention of bridging and Rotel. It is mentioned for the first time in post 96, but that was in conjunction with an Onkyo product.
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post #566 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeTime View Post

What was interesting to me is that, after a few posts debunking this approach, no one attempted to read through this poster's goal and address it -- that is, how do I get more power to my rig with an extra stereo amplifier.

By "this poster" do you mean the OP (OllieS) or Heinrich S?

If you mean the OP, I think that bridging has already been mentioned in the thread as being preferable (provided it is possible).

Honestly, I didn't look back to see what other posts Heinrich S was making in the thread that far back. Only the post you quoted recently. And I took it that he was only asking what is often asked, "why do so many manufacturers include provisions for, instructions for, or mention of biwiring and/or biamping capabilities if it has no merit?" And, no, I am not trying to ignite (or re-ignite, as the case may be) that discussion, here. No comment in that respect except to say that it is a reasonable question, considering.

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Bridging doubles the voltage, not the current. Bridging two amps doubles the available swing but the current available from each amp does not increase (to do that you would have to parallel the amps). This is one of the reasons bridging frequently increases the min rated the load resistance (i.e. an amp that will drive a 4-ohm load will only drive an 8-ohm load when bridged). Another clue is the rarity with which bridged amps actually achieve 4x the output power as theory would imply.

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post #568 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I don't recall any mention of bridging and Rotel. It is mentioned for the first time in post 96, but that was in conjunction with an Onkyo product.
Bridge-mode configuration is explicitly shown in the Rotel schematic attached by OllieS, way back before the word "bridging" was ever mentioned in this thread. Which is exactly my point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

And I took it that he was only asking what is often asked, "why do so many manufacturers include provisions for, instructions for, or mention of biwiring and/or biamping capabilities if it has no merit?" And, no, I am not trying to ignite (or re-ignite, as the case may be) that discussion, here. No comment in that respect except to say that it is a reasonable question, considering.
A fresh reading -- that would be me, as I just saw this thread the other day -- of the first few pages of this thread where OllieS' first posts showed up, would suggest that the denizens of this forum were more interested in bashing bi-wiring in propria persona or under the alias of "bi-amping" than in resolving the real problems and situations posed by some of those less knowledgeable about industry practices.
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Bridging doubles the voltage, not the current. Bridging two amps doubles the available swing but the current available from each amp does not increase (to do that you would have to parallel the amps). This is one of the reasons bridging frequently increases the min rated the load resistance (i.e. an amp that will drive a 4-ohm load will only drive an 8-ohm load when bridged). Another clue is the rarity with which bridged amps actually achieve 4x the output power as theory would imply.
Not quite.

Bridging increases voltage and current in the same proportions for a given load, as Ohm's law dictates.. In the pure case (that is, with a sufficient power supply like Bryston, Levinson et al), bridging doubles both the voltage and current. Thus, the power is quadrupled.
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post #569 of 1044 Old 11-23-2013, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Ummm, I guess that could be one conclusion. But it'd be incorrect. wink.gif
I have enough business experience to know that any printed publication might never have been seen by the engineering department, much less conceived by a professional engineer. I can only hope and pray that an amateur audiophile in the graphic arts department came up with such a lame-brained idea.

I started my professional career doing live sound reinforcement. Multi-amping is second nature to me after years of building 2, 3, 4 and 5-way PA systems. While I don't expect everyone to be an electrical engineer, it's a bit shocking how so few can grasp this rudimentary practice. I mean, in a place where a subwoofer is mandatory... /me shakes head

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeTime View Post

Bridge-mode configuration is explicitly shown in the Rotel schematic attached by OllieS, way back before the word "bridging" was ever mentioned in this thread.
You quoted a post by Heinrich S. Did OllieS also post the same Rotel schematic somewhere in this thread?

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Originally Posted by PrimeTime View Post

-- of the first few pages of this thread where OllieS' first posts showed up...........

OllieS
started this thread!

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